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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 8:39:22 AM   
RealSub58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JewAndCelt

It's as important as anything else in a relationship. Outright ignoring and blindly accepting a partner's beliefs will only lead to ruin.
I am not buying this at all.  Esp "lead to ruin."
Ignoring or blindly accepting another's beliefs is passive intelligence.  I went into a relationship knowing the consequences of sharing my beliefs, he listens doesn't agree but, that doesn't mean totally accepting each other will lead to ruin.  
Changing beliefs to fit a situation, make folks happy or to please a partner will lead to pretty much the same outcome.
People who change beliefs, if its religion or anything else, are fence sitters and easily swayed.  They have no character.
If all concerned parties aren't a good fit together, then it's not going to last - or if it does, a lot of subject matter will be off-limits.
Off limits subjects is not what a relationship is about.  A relationship goes to ruins only because people in it refuse to talk and share, even its it to disagree or agree to disagree.
Religion, politics, how to raise/discipline a child, finances, how to spend money......   more differences included here.....
of the above, religion and politics dent ruin a relationship.


What does ruin relationships in regards to religion is the external influence of family.  We probably all know of people who have had to dissolve a marriage because the in-laws put to much pressure on the person/relationship and that pressure eventually corroded the relationship from within.
Happened to my niece.  Her husband was so passive that the pressure from his family broke him down, niece couldn't be with a spineless wimp who couldn't stand up for her.

Sir being atheist and me from an evangelical back ground will not ruin our relationship.  Even tho I know the Bible says "do not be unequally yoked."  The Creator gave us free will.

Now if you evolved from a tadpole .... I wonder .....  

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 10:46:23 AM   
IvyMorgan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

There is nothing you know about anything that I espouse philosophically when I say I am an atheist aside from the fact that you know I don't consider the concept of a theistic deity feasible.
Actually, I don't know that.  All I know when you say you are an atheist is that you choose not to worship a deity.  Whether that be becuase you do not believe one exists, or because you do not believe that one should be worshipped, is a whole other question.

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 1:30:43 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Indoctrinating children, whose minds are open doors to assimilating new knowledge, into a religion is an act of forcing it upon them.
 
Yet, if you espouse the notion of not "forcing" worldviews upon others, then it only reinforces my point to seek likeminded individuals with whom I can feel intellectually fulfilled rather than try and "convert" someone heavily attached to their metaphysical notions.


So by not teaching children about different faiths and beliefs, are you not indoctrinating them with your non belief?  You are 'forcing' them by not allowing them to make the choice themselves.
 
Your way is no better than making children attend sunday school or experience festival of lights.  It's exactly the same.
 
As to the OP - as long as their is a belief in each other and a respect for each others understandings - there need never be an issue.
 
the.dark.

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 1:34:57 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

So by not teaching children about different faiths and beliefs, are you not indoctrinating them with your non belief?  You are 'forcing' them by not allowing them to make the choice themselves.

This makes absolutely no logical sense. By not forcing metaphysical/subjective ideas into their heads I would be giving them a blank slate upon which to explore. There is no doctrine of "non-belief".



< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 9/23/2008 1:35:20 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 1:37:44 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan
All I know when you say you are an atheist is that you choose not to worship a deity.

That can apply both to atheists and deists.
Atheism specifically tells you my stance on the sensibility of the god concept, not just my desire to worship such a creature or not.


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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 1:38:55 PM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		It makes perfect sense.  If you refuse to teach a child something or with hold that child from learning something, then you are indoctrinating them with your non belief.  You are not giving them the ability to learn for themselves.
It's saying, well I won't teach about *insert here* because I am not a *insert here*.  You aren't setting them up for understanding - you are setting them up for intolerence and a lack of knowledge.
 
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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 1:47:37 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

It makes perfect sense.  If you refuse to teach a child something or with hold that child from learning something, then you are indoctrinating them with your non belief.

Let me get this straight: not teaching kids about escargot is indoctrination? Not teaching kids about how to play cricket is indoctrination? For every single minute topic that we fail to toss upon the brains of our children....we are indoctrinating them in "non belief"?

No. this is the mentality wrought from the predisposition to think that some metaphysical imaginative wordlview is a crucial additive to the mental health of a child (like, for instance, being able to speak their own primary language).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
You are not giving them the ability to learn for themselves.
It's saying, well I won't teach about *insert here* because I am not a *insert here*.  You aren't setting them up for understanding - you are setting them up for intolerence and a lack of knowledge.

Funny..I would think that bringing it up only to denounce it would be intolerance (not neutral indifference). You know, the way racists might bring up the topic of skin color to their children to reinforce to them which colors are subhuman?


< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 9/23/2008 1:48:36 PM >

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 1:51:21 PM   
IvyMorgan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan
All I know when you say you are an atheist is that you choose not to worship a deity.

That can apply both to atheists and deists.
Atheism specifically tells you my stance on the sensibility of the god concept, not just my desire to worship such a creature or not.



Well, as an atheist, you could either be choosing not to practice a form of theism, or believing that there is no god.  Simply saying "I'm an atheist" doesn't say which sort of atheist you are.

Positive/Strong atheism says "gods don't exist"
Negative/Weak atheism says "I don't worship a god"

Both would indicate that you aren't worshipping a god.  But, unless you clarify your atheism, I don't know anymore than that.

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 1:55:56 PM   
IvyMorgan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

It makes perfect sense.  If you refuse to teach a child something or with hold that child from learning something, then you are indoctrinating them with your non belief.

Let me get this straight: not teaching kids about escargot is indoctrination? Not teaching kids about how to play cricket is indoctrination? For every single minute topic that we fail to toss upon the brains of our children....we are indoctrinating them in "non belief"?

Probably easier to liken it to politics.

Teaching your kid about Communism, and only about Communism, then you are indoctrinating your kid (possibly).  If you teach your kid about Communism, Capitalism, Fascism, Conservatism, Liberalism, Libertarianism etc...  Then you are educating, opening their mind, and giving them the resources to make up their own mind.

If you teach you kid your religion, and only your religion, and disparage all others, you are colouring their beliefs.  If you teach them about many religions, you are giving them tools to be critical and think for themselves.

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 1:56:38 PM   
E2Sweet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince

...Question: How important is religion when determining a potential match for yourself?...


Its not important to me unless religious beliefs may, will, or do become a stumbling block within the relationship...


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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 1:58:00 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan

Well, as an atheist, you could either be choosing not to practice a form of theism, or believing that there is no god.  Simply saying "I'm an atheist" doesn't say which sort of atheist you are.

Positive/Strong atheism says "gods don't exist"
Negative/Weak atheism says "I don't worship a god"

Both would indicate that you aren't worshipping a god.  But, unless you clarify your atheism, I don't know anymore than that.

Although strong and weak atheism differ on points of definitive deconstruction of the god concept, both consider it superfluous and irrelevant. So, I've been essentially describing what can be said to be pretty much univeral for all atheists.

If someone thinks there is a god, but does not worship it, that places them in the areas of either deism or agnosticism.

Weak atheists refuse to firmly denounce the god concept based on epistemological thresholds (the fundamental exception that anything we think we know could possibly, conceivably 'just maybe' be wrong).


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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 1:58:54 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark


So by not teaching children about different faiths and beliefs, are you not indoctrinating them with your non belief?  You are 'forcing' them by not allowing them to make the choice themselves.
 
Your way is no better than making children attend sunday school or experience festival of lights.  It's exactly the same.
 



damned if you do/damned if you don't?



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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 1:59:26 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan
Probably easier to liken it to politics.

Teaching your kid about Communism, and only about Communism, then you are indoctrinating your kid (possibly).  If you teach your kid about Communism, Capitalism, Fascism, Conservatism, Liberalism, Libertarianism etc...  Then you are educating, opening their mind, and giving them the resources to make up their own mind.

If you teach you kid your religion, and only your religion, and disparage all others, you are colouring their beliefs.  If you teach them about many religions, you are giving them tools to be critical and think for themselves.

Okay.

Except for the part where atheism is neither a religion nor a set of beliefs. So there is nothing to indoctrinate.



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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:01:26 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholl

damned if you do/damned if you don't?



Apparently. *scratches head*

Force your children to believe something? You're indoctrinating them.
Don't force your children to belief in something? You're indoctrinating them.


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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:03:05 PM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		By not allowing them to learn, you are teaching ignorance.
If you decide not to teach them cricket, because you do not play nor believe in cricket as a good sport, you are indoctrinating them into your way of thinking - particularly if they ask to be taught it.  If you do not teach cricket because it's never been an issue - that is a failiure to learn without intent.  By purposefully removing a child from learning an activity because it's not something you choose to do, that is an attempt to get them to follow your ideas.
 
I do not hold to the doctrine of existentialism as a concept, but I would not turn around and refuse for my child to have any knowledge of it, should it come up in their studies, anymore than I would when Buddhism comes up on the agenda.  I actively encourage they learn about it and speak to people who follow the concept so that they can make an informed choice in their adult years, not blinded simply because of what I believe - or have no belief in.
 
the.dark.


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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:08:37 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholl

damned if you do/damned if you don't?



Apparently. *scratches head*

Force your children to believe something? You're indoctrinating them.
Don't force your children to belief in something? You're indoctrinating them.



And this is where you hit the brick wall.  You are assuming that there is force involved just because one is a belief.  This is not the case.  You(generic) teach atheism, you teach religon, you teach science and you teach philosophy and then you let the person decide for themselves.
 
You are advocating ignorance.  I advocate informed decision process.
 
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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:14:41 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

By not allowing them to learn, you are teaching ignorance.

Please show me where I said that I advocate a restriction of what a child should be able to learn.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
If you decide not to teach them cricket, because you do not play nor believe in cricket as a good sport, you are indoctrinating them into your way of thinking - particularly if they ask to be taught it.

Children don't ask to be taught a certain path. They ask to learn. To understand. Nowhere have I said I am for crippling this. What you want me to do is give affirmative action time to every possible subjective notion on the planet so that I can maintain some idealistic concept of equality. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
By purposefully removing a child from learning an activity because it's not something you choose to do, that is an attempt to get them to follow your ideas.

I never said I would keep them from learning. I would support them in discovering these non-essential topics on their own when they have the urge to tackle them. To avoid indoctrination you don't set a child in a playpen and shove 10 toys in his face. You set the child in a playpen and let him find the toy he's drawn to most on his own.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarcyandthedarkI do not hold to the doctrine of existentialism as a concept,

Um...actually we all do. By whatever means we choose ot ascribe meaning to our lives. We each do it differently...but we do it. It's like saying you do not hold to the doctrine of breathing as a means of living.

But that's a digression. I get the point you're making, so...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
but I would not turn around and refuse for my child to have any knowledge of it, should it come up in their studies, anymore than I would when Buddhism comes up on the agenda.

Once again, I've never once here used the word "refusing" nor meant it in anything close to the sense you're ascribing it to me for.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 9/23/2008 2:20:57 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:18:33 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
 You(generic) teach atheism,

There's nothing about atheism to teach.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
you teach religon,

As an antropological mechanism that many people adapt to their way of life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
you teach science

As the empirical method by which to understand our universe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
and you teach philosophy

As the human search for understanding beyond the limits of epistemology.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
and then you let the person decide for themselves.
 
You are advocating ignorance.  I advocate informed decision process.
 
the.dark.

You are comparing all these things as if they are the same. They're not.

You don't teach a child that maybe 2+2=7 because, if not, you'll be a mathematical indoctrinator.



< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 9/23/2008 2:22:58 PM >

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:20:11 PM   
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I have taken it upon myself to invite the Archbishop of Canterbury to the forthcoming Battersea Park Munch.

I've mentioned that it's not far from Westminster Abbey and assured him that no bishops will be bashed.

We welcome all denominations (even US dollars). However as yet I've yet to receive a response.

But all welcome on the 30th, whoever you pray to.

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:22:17 PM   
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