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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:26:48 PM   
sirsholly


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Status: offline 		i am thinking if you substitute "morality" for "religion" you might realize how silly this is.

The arguement seems to be that parents have no right to impose their spiritual beliefs onto their children. Therefore...i assume the arguement must also state that a parent has no right to impose their morality onto their children...since most morality follows the *gasp* 10 commandments in some way.


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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:30:58 PM   
IvyMorgan


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Status: offline 		You mean that rule about not boiling a kid in its mother's milk?

(Bad theology pseudo-joke)

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:31:59 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

This will get into a discussion that has nothing to do with the OP before long (atheism is not a set of beliefs...it is implicitly a lack thereof).
Erm, no.

Two types of atheism...

1.  I believe there is no god/higher power.

2.  I do not practice any form of "the-ism" (i.e. I do not worship a god)

Type 1 is most definitly a "set of beliefs".


Not all Atheist's are anti-God axe wielders, Nihilis. I label myself as an Atheist, because I don't worship a god and I derive my connection with the world around me and my purpose in life from the philosophical.

To me, being Atheist means believing that all forms of "-isms" are merely symbols which serve as gateways to the existential purpose, direction, and meaning that we as humans need to be grounded in a nihilistic world. To have no believes at all or no symbols would be self defeating.

Whatever path or direction my partner follows is really irrelevant to me as long as it is kept in perspective. The absolute self-assurance and narcissism that defines a fanatic would not be compatible with me at all.


< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 9/23/2008 2:42:59 PM >

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:36:55 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan
Positive/Strong atheism says "gods don't exist"
Negative/Weak atheism says "I don't worship a god"


From where I stand, I would say...

Obnoxious atheism says "gods don't exist"
Respectful atheism says "I don't worship a god"

As a recovering obnoxious atheist, I mean slightly in jest

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:41:35 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Not all Atheist's are anti-God axe wielders, Nihilis. I label myself as an Atheist, because I don't worship a god and I derive my connection with the world around me and my purpose in life from the philosophical.

I try not to come across as "anti-god" in that sense. By which I mean, the sense of emotional anger or personal displeasure at the god concept and/or how it has negatively impacted my life (which hasn't been the case).

The funny thing is...I've evolved philosophically into atheism (and existential nihilism) via a handful of spiritualities (christianity, neopaganism, native american beliefs, zen buddhism, daoism...) and I try not to seem as if I actively berate how each and any of them can be a healthy vehicle with which a person can drive through their lives with. Yet, at the same time, I've spent years dissecting them anthropologically and psychologically...so I ultimately seem detached and 'cold' about what they (at lowest common denominator) are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
To me, being Atheist means believing that all forms of "-isms" are merely symbols which serve as gateways to the existential purpose, direction, and meaning that we as humans need to be grounded in a nihilistic world. To have no believes at all or no symbols would be self defeating.

I actually quite agree with you here. I could elaborate on my own personal views on not escaping nihilism without falling into the emotional downward spiral so often connnected to doing so...but I'm already feeling kinda guilty i've thrown this thread for too far a tangent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Whatever path or direction my partner follows is really irrelevant to me as long as it is kept in perspective. The absolute self-assurance and narcissism that defines a fanatic would not be compatible with me at all.

And, once again, we would be in agreement. Which brings me back to my original statement:
quote:

It's important to the degree of attachment in the partner. I'm an atheist (technically, I'm an existential nihilist, but that's not the point....) and would likely not blend well with anyone who is heavily attached to their religious/spiritual dogma.


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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:43:40 PM   
MadRabbit


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Status: offline 		Yeah, sorry to make you write all that out. I wrote it before I took the time to read the whole thread and see we are pretty much in agreement on a lot of our stances on things.

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:43:42 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

(PS: I give up on this damned font thing. You and your freaky fonts are confusing the crap out of me and I can't seem to get anything back to normal, regardless of the number of edits! )


Annoying isn't it?  It used to be easier back in da old days...
quote:

 
Um...actually we all do.


Then define it.  I cannot agree nor disagree unless I understand your grasp of the concept.
quote:

You are comparing all these things as if they are the same. They're not.

 
No.  I am suggesting that they are different but without knowing of any of them, how can anyone make an informed choice?  If a child has the choice of 10 toys and chooses one to play with, they do it because they like it for whatever reason, the colour, the texture, the sound it makes.  But they will try all given the chance.  They will choose one given time.

the.dark.

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:43:48 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Obnoxious atheism says "gods don't exist"
Respectful atheism says "I don't worship a god"

As a recovering obnoxious atheist, I mean slightly in jest

We should have a discussion about this sometime. I know the natural temperament of the type of strong atheists who aggressively would decry the non-existence stance. I think I've arrived at as solid a conclusion by logical deconstruction.

But, another time, perhaps.


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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:48:23 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

To have no believes at all or no symbols would be self defeating.



I disagree. All symbols are false representations of whatever they symbolize, and it is possible that some consider those symbols to be a lie. It is possible and feasible for an individual to have neither existential beliefs nor symbolic representations of existential concepts and -still- have a productive, relatively happy life. There are some days that I think that -most- people would be happier in this life if they had no worries about the future, and did not expend precious, joyful energy trying to punish others for not believing in the same afterlife outcome that they did or dwelling on whether the mistakes they'd made in their lives would keep them out of their perfectly imagined afterlives.

Would WIITWD be satisfying if there -were- nothing but this moment? If there were no future to consider, would we still choose the same partners, the same projects, the same recreations, the same expressions of our interests or sexuality? If it -truly- didn't matter what we did, would we be doing the same things that we are doing now?

Just something else to chew on.

CFB


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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:48:53 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Obnoxious atheism says "gods don't exist"
Respectful atheism says "I don't worship a god"

As a recovering obnoxious atheist, I mean slightly in jest

We should have a discussion about this sometime. I know the natural temperament of the type of strong atheists who aggressively would decry the non-existence stance. I think I've arrived at as solid a conclusion by logical deconstruction.

But, another time, perhaps.



Hell yeah. Won't mind it in the least. You seem like a guy I can learn a thing or two from and maybe revise a few of my own opinions.

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:48:53 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Annoying isn't it?  It used to be easier back in da old days...

Annoying for me! I keep ending up with your font!!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Then define it.  I cannot agree nor disagree unless I understand your grasp of the concept.

What i meant is that existentialism is the way we all escape the inevitabilities of our existence (most specifically, our own deaths and eventually the death of our way of life and the universe).



quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
No.  I am suggesting that they are different but without knowing of any of them, how can anyone make an informed choice?  If a child has the choice of 10 toys and chooses one to play with, they do it because they like it for whatever reason, the colour, the texture, the sound it makes.  But they will try all given the chance.  They will choose one given time.

the.dark.

This is what I'm saying. But you can't possibly include every toy in the world into the mix, can you?

And, realistically, by the time a child gets to the point to where they are asking some of these fundamental questions about human existence, they're old enough to go out looking for answers on their own...so I don't think i would need to expose them to anything, just give them the freedom to find out themselves.


< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 9/23/2008 2:51:44 PM >

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:51:14 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Would WIITWD be satisfying if there -were- nothing but this moment? If there were no future to consider, would we still choose the same partners, the same projects, the same recreations, the same expressions of our interests or sexuality? If it -truly- didn't matter what we did, would we be doing the same things that we are doing now?

Yes. That, as a matter of fact, is precisely why I'm doing what I do.


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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:54:14 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Hell yeah. Won't mind it in the least. You seem like a guy I can learn a thing or two from and maybe revise a few of my own opinions.

Oh, I don't know about that.
If anything, the exchange would be mutually helpful.


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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 2:56:19 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

To have no believes at all or no symbols would be self defeating.



I disagree. All symbols are false representations of whatever they symbolize, and it is possible that some consider those symbols to be a lie. It is possible and feasible for an individual to have neither existential beliefs nor symbolic representations of existential concepts and -still- have a productive, relatively happy life. There are some days that I think that -most- people would be happier in this life if they had no worries about the future, and did not expend precious, joyful energy trying to punish others for not believing in the same afterlife outcome that they did or dwelling on whether the mistakes they'd made in their lives would keep them out of their perfectly imagined afterlives.

Would WIITWD be satisfying if there -were- nothing but this moment? If there were no future to consider, would we still choose the same partners, the same projects, the same recreations, the same expressions of our interests or sexuality? If it -truly- didn't matter what we did, would we be doing the same things that we are doing now?

Just something else to chew on.

CFB



I would agree if we limit what we call a "symbol" to a particular set of existentisial beliefs, but the people I've met who simply live out their lives without giving much thought to any set of philosophical or spiritual beliefs derive their symbols from something else.

Money, power, devotion to one's family, the love of a child....these are all things that serve as vessels to provide direction. Even my pot-smoking Puerto Rican butcher buddy who has no real goals that I can tell and probably can't spell the word "philosophical", but still has his own symbols....an ideology of "cool" indoctrinated from hip hop culture.

Whatever it is that drives someone and defines their life and existance here is what I could call a "symbol". In my opinion, everyone needs one and I have yet to meet anyone who didn't have one in some sense or another.

Edited to Add : Not being concious of one doesn't equate to not having one either.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 9/23/2008 2:57:45 PM >

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 3:13:58 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

Annoying for me! I keep ending up with your font!!!

  All I can offer is a cheesy grin at that.

quote:

What i meant is that existentialism is the way we all escape the inevitabilities of our existence (most specifically, our own deaths and eventually the death of our way of life and the universe).


Is death not the only absolute?
 
quote:

But you can't possibly include every toy in the world into the mix, can you?


Why not?
 
quote:

And, realistically, by the time a child gets to the point to where they are asking some of these fundamental questions about human existence, they're old enough to go out looking for answers on their own...so I don't think i would need to expose them to anything, just give them the freedom to find out themselves.

 
Yes, I absolutely believe in the freedom to learn.  I also believe that in teaching non belief by example, that one should also mention belief by comparrison.
 
the.dark.

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 3:17:20 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Would WIITWD be satisfying if there -were- nothing but this moment? If there were no future to consider, would we still choose the same partners, the same projects, the same recreations, the same expressions of our interests or sexuality? If it -truly- didn't matter what we did, would we be doing the same things that we are doing now?


Yes.
Yes.
And Yes.
 
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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/23/2008 4:18:56 PM   
cruelandloving08


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Status: offline 		I think that the answer to this question does not change dependent upon whether one is a vanilla, or a member of the D/s lifestyle, or even a Gorean. Those who are very zealous, whatever their faith, tend to find it more important to be with a partner who shares their beliefs. There are exceptions... I Myself belong to a Unitarian church, where on any given day (services week round) you can find Catholics, Buddhists, Animists, Wiccans, Hindus and Muslims all sitting and having animated, respectful theological discussions with eachother. Therefore, to Me, it is important that someone I am with HAVE a faith, because I feel it gives a person a sense of direction and morality, but I don't particularly care if they share My own beliefs.

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/26/2008 3:49:49 PM   
CelticPrince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealSub58

quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince


Question: How important is religion when determining a potential match for yourself?

CP


I just went through the thread "lowering ones standards."
My Sir's "religious" background is as different from mine as black and white.  It's not an off topic between us, we have accepted the fact that we accept our difference.
 
The dude who lied to me the most is the one who brought the topic up to me and stated his beliefs.  They were as mine.  I told him so.   What a mistake.  My grief was deep.
 
Just as I dont discuss politics or things I dont know much about, my beliefs are told only if asked.  For a point sometimes I use them.  Other times....  I know who I believe in and what it means to me ....I carry on with hope in my heart and soul (which does not belong to my Owner, only my Redeemer and Creator).


RealSub,

it appears that you have a handle on what is best for you / thanks for your thoughts.

CP

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/26/2008 3:52:55 PM   
CelticPrince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo


quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince

we are a homogenious mix here with our individual kinks and chemistry criteria in search of "the match" that will make us viable D/s couple. We also come from a wide range of religious backgrounds that may or may not have been kept current. The mix is well represented here and sometimes mentioned in profiles and sometimes not. There are Wiccans, Methodist,Catholics, Jewish, Pres, and Baptists and a few others.

Question: How important is religion when determining a potential match for yourself?

CP


I think all of these issues of which religion is merely one are important in that if you have more in common to begin with you will have less adjusting to do. Obviously you will not be the same but the more similarities you have the better I think you will do in sorting through the differences.

In our household we were all raised "Christian" but rather different types. For my parents, the church was a huge part of their lives with both parents holding positions of authority in the church, an authority they used to hide a lot of our family problems. For my husband, church was a matter of just what you did on Sundays and they switched churches several times. For my slave, church was an area of conflict with one part of the family subscribing to one "church" and the other to another -- he, his sister and his mom went to one "church" primarily and his father to another.

The result is that we are will say we are "Christian" in this household but frankly we feel more spiritual than religious because we don't find the human created church to be much more than a social vehicle that is easily manipulated and changed by those in power and authority.

I think someone who was very set on going regularly to services would be highly uncomfortable in our household as would an atheist since we do prayer and discuss spiritual issues regularly.

The same can be said for political, ethical, moral, social, environmental the list goes on and on issues.
[/quote

tammyjo,

And not a word of a lie in it!

CP

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RE: D/s and Religion - 9/26/2008 3:54:48 PM   
CelticPrince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

It's important to the degree of attachment in the partner. I'm an atheist (technically, I'm an existential nihilist, but that's not the point....) and would likely not blend well with anyone who is heavily attached to their religious/spiritual dogma.



NZ,

recognition of a potential ,problem is half the battle.

CP

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