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RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/26/2008 4:36:55 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Then what is all this opposition about wind farms?


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/26/2008 5:04:19 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
I never said that I oppose wind farms.


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(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/26/2008 5:14:04 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		*just laughs*



(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/26/2008 8:22:45 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
I asked how wind farms are any better than strip mines, and I basically said that wind farms are ugly, a blight on the landscape, but I never said I oppose them - you're seeing things in my writing that you want to see, things that I never wrote. We need power, I understand that, and so I won't oppose wind farms.

Again, strip mines are by law reclaimed at the end of their useful life into parks and nature preserves, they are given to many uses. They could even plant wind farms on top, wind farms that are ugly forever... while strip mines are not.




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(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/26/2008 9:24:03 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Oh, I see. You don't oppose ugly blights on the landscape.

And we're right back to you clearly having a very limited picture of what wind farms are like. It's a few windmills in the middle of working farms, with the fields and cows just walking around them. Talk about land use!

Would it be better if we shut down the working farms, threw the people, the cattle and the crops off the land, bulldozed the windmills and created a park or a nature preserve? In the middle of the country where nature already just walks across our property freely? Or should we just strip mine?

You've no idea what you're talking about.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/26/2008 9:35:01 PM >

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 5:35:34 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Oh, I see. You don't oppose ugly blights on the landscape.



As I said, I know we need energy. How about yourself?


quote:


And we're right back to you clearly having a very limited picture of what wind farms are like. It's a few windmills in the middle of working farms, with the fields and cows just walking around them. Talk about land use!



Again, you're not describing a wind farm, what you're seeing is a wind mill here and there. True wind farms take up whole canyon sides, whole mountain ridges, with one windmill after another. You know, it's funny to see you act so condescending towards me when you're clearly the one who keeps misspeaking.

Here. Thank Vendeval for these links: the actual wind farms in these photos have multiple mills and are therefore easy to spot:

http://app.tabblo.com/studio/stories/view/195083/

http://windeis.anl.gov/guide/photos/index.cfm

http://www.wind-works.org/photos/PhotosNorthAmericanWindfarms.html


quote:

Would it be better if we shut down the working farms, threw the people, the cattle and the crops off the land, bulldozed the windmills and created a park or a nature preserve? In the middle of the country where nature already just walks across our property freely? Or should we just strip mine?



You seem to be going off on an unrelated tangent here, but I'll take a stab at answering you. The land needed for strip mining oil shale is generally desert or high desert mountainside, and being desert there aren't many animals or people living there. Midwestern cities and farms have nothing to do with this... 

Tell you what - why don't you read up on it a bit and then come and try to argue your points, if you still have any when you're done with your studying.

quote:



You've no idea what you're talking about.



I'm the one who taught you how oil shale is accessed... as it turns out, I'm teaching you a lot of things, in spite of your insulting manner.


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(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 8:17:55 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Seems you are speaking only of very specific wind farms, the few you know about.

There are much better ways. Come on up and see for yourself.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 8:32:03 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Go on thinking that a wind mill makes a wind farm... do you think that a pig makes a pig farm, as well?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Seems you are speaking only of very specific wind farms, the few you know about.

There are much better ways. Come on up and see for yourself.


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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 8:40:31 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		While you believe that a strip mine makes a helluva a nice park(after reclamation of course).

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 8:53:42 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Go on thinking that a wind mill makes a wind farm... do you think that a pig makes a pig farm, as well?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Seems you are speaking only of very specific wind farms, the few you know about.

There are much better ways. Come on up and see for yourself.



Again, you've no idea what you're talking about.

Define it anyway you want. That way, it can continue to mean anything you want.

Convenient, sure. Just not accurate. We've hundreds of windmills, and more go up everyday. And they go up on working farms (almost everything here), adding value to land, income to farmers, and more energy. The average wind speed around the country is about 10 mph. Here it's 17 mph, as we're up relatively high and surrounded by much lower geography and then Great Lakes.

Building windfarms as you describe here would be both silly and unnecessary.

But continue to tell me I don't know what I'm looking at and that telling you about it instead of agreeing with you is rude, insulting, condescending, whatever you like. It's easier than accepting reality.

People also build windfarms offshore, incidentally, taking advantage of the stiff ocean breezes. Not simply razing mountainsides.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/27/2008 8:55:40 AM >

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 8:58:41 AM   
Sanity


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Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Actually it does, that land is good for practically any other use you can imagine. The land itself isn't destroyed, mike - and I don't know why you imagine that it would be. What are you thinking, that there's a black hole left where the mine was, sucking in any plant or animal that comes near it?

The wind turbines pictured on this web page are located on a reclaimed strip mine.

You see (and I think this is the third or fourth time I've repeated this for your benefit), by law any strip mine has to be reclaimed at the end of its useful life. What part of that don't you get?

In order to get a permit to move any earth in the first place, money has to be deposited up front into a special account specifically set up to fund any needed reclamation. The laws and red tape that are in place governing the mining industry are mind-boggling. It's really a wonder that any mines can operate at all with all the layers of bureaucracy that are involved!

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

While you believe that a strip mine makes a helluva a nice park(after reclamation of course).


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RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 9:01:50 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Aren't senators supposed to be helping the country?

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(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 9:05:57 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		I never said anything about razing mountainsides for wind farms! Where do you get this stuff...

I'm done arguing with you, it's pointless in your case. 



quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Again, you've no idea what you're talking about.

Define it anyway you want. That way, it can continue to mean anything you want.

Convenient, sure. Just not accurate. We've hundreds of windmills, and more go up everyday. And they go up on working farms (almost everything here), adding value to land, income to farmers, and more energy. The average wind speed around the country is about 10 mph. Here it's 17 mph, as we're up relatively high and surrounded by much lower geography and then Great Lakes.

Building windfarms as you describe here would be both silly and unnecessary.

But continue to tell me I don't know what I'm looking at and that telling you about it instead of agreeing with you is rude, insulting, condescending, whatever you like. It's easier than accepting reality.

People also build windfarms offshore, incidentally, taking advantage of the stiff ocean breezes. Not simply razing mountainsides.



< Message edited by Sanity -- 9/27/2008 9:08:57 AM >

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(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 9:08:08 AM   
Sanity


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Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
They're supposed to be, popeye, but I think Harry Reid must be getting bribes from the Saudis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Aren't senators supposed to be helping the country?


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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 9:11:10 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Sanity while in operation a strip mine is a blight on the landscape...what part of that don't you get.You keep bringing this back to reclamation,before you get to reclamation you must first rape the land.....which is as good a description of strip mining as one can get.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 9:19:39 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Temporarily raping a little land out West where the land knows practically no end is perfectly acceptable to me, especially when weighed against our need for affordable fuel at the pump and our need to keep American energy dollars right here at home.

Yes it is.



quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Sanity while in operation a strip mine is a blight on the landscape...what part of that don't you get.You keep bringing this back to reclamation,before you get to reclamation you must first rape the land.....which is as good a description of strip mining as one can get.


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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 9:23:25 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


They're supposed to be, popeye, but I think Harry Reid must be getting bribes from the Saudis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Aren't senators supposed to be helping the country?

Please explain to me as if I am a 5 y/o why the Saudis would bother bribing Harry Reid,when they have Bush and Cheney in their pockets as virtual partners, albeit limited partners.

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 9/27/2008 9:24:27 AM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 9:57:13 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I never said anything about razing mountainsides for wind farms! Where do you get this stuff...

I'm done arguing with you, it's pointless in your case. 



quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Again, you've no idea what you're talking about.

Define it anyway you want. That way, it can continue to mean anything you want.

Convenient, sure. Just not accurate. We've hundreds of windmills, and more go up everyday. And they go up on working farms (almost everything here), adding value to land, income to farmers, and more energy. The average wind speed around the country is about 10 mph. Here it's 17 mph, as we're up relatively high and surrounded by much lower geography and then Great Lakes.

Building windfarms as you describe here would be both silly and unnecessary.

But continue to tell me I don't know what I'm looking at and that telling you about it instead of agreeing with you is rude, insulting, condescending, whatever you like. It's easier than accepting reality.

People also build windfarms offshore, incidentally, taking advantage of the stiff ocean breezes. Not simply razing mountainsides.


quote:

Again, you're not describing a wind farm, what you're seeing is a wind mill here and there. True wind farms take up whole canyon sides, whole mountain ridges, with one windmill after another.


From you.

"Again, you're not describing a wind farm, what you're seeing is a wind mill here and there. True wind farms take up whole canyon sides, whole mountain ridges, with one windmill after another."

Of course, I didn't say anything about "a windwill," either--not that a little detail like a fact slowed you down any.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/27/2008 9:58:50 AM >

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/27/2008 9:44:33 PM   
MsRobinSanders


Posts: 30
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		This is a really good thread. I listened  to the Presidential candidates and I didn't hear either one of them voice an Energy Plan. as in how to get off foreign oil. Did you?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Reid to Renew Oil Shale Ban, Deny Americans Vast En... - 9/28/2008 1:07:04 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Robin,

The debates have preset themes. This one was foreign policy--although clearly finance needed attention.

They both have energy plans, of course. Obama's features more renewable energy, McCain more coal, nuclear plants and drilling.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy
http://www.johnmccain.com//Informing/Issues/17671aa4-2fe8-4008-859f-0ef1468e96f4.htm



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/28/2008 1:15:37 AM >

(in reply to MsRobinSanders)
Profile   Post #: 120
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