RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (Full Version)

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missturbation -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 2:58:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation Speak for yourself not everyone. I agree that is a very good practice which I follow with all the "I" statements in every one of my posts. Nice twist [;)] quote: And since I am cooly and non-offensively attempting to explain to you what I really meant so we can go back to being friends and given your continued ignorance and lack of acceptance of that, I would defiently consider this to be a personal vendetta. Continued ignorance? Because i disagree with some of the stuff you have sad? Lack of acceptance? Because i disagree with some of the stuff you have said? Personal vendetta? No definately not. I think some of your posts are great, enjoy reading them. Your posts on here, no i don't like or agree with them. A personal vendetta would be if i disagreed with everything you said and stated so on every thread you post in. This is a disagreement plain and simple over one topic of converation. Now please dont be o melodramatic.

KatyLied -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 3:01:25 PM)
quote: I would rather be me than be submissive... I like this. It's more important to embrace who you are, than to try to fit into someone's (often narrow) view of what a submissive is and what a submissive does. I will freely admit that I am not the most submissive person around, except in certain situations, when I can be submissive to a degree that some would probably find surprising. But I'm okay with it, it's who I am.

NuevaVida -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 3:04:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied quote: I would rather be me than be submissive... I like this. It's more important to embrace who you are, than to try to fit into someone's (often narrow) view of what a submissive is and what a submissive does. I agree. It's a lesson I only recently learned.

missturbation -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 3:04:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin missturbation, might I respectfully suggest that being such close friends may have you viewing some of the comments made in this thread from a perspective which is entirely different than anyone else here possibly can. I have read the thread also...but I honestly don't see the personal attacks to the same degree you seem to be seeing them. Yes i totally agree. However the attacks that are there to whatever degree are totally unfounded and ill informed at best. I am extremely protective of my friends, not that soft needs protecting, hell no lol but still...............

Tamora -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 3:08:44 PM)
yeah I agree. I think that we should really focus upon the message of the OP

NihilusZero -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 3:26:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Well, perhaps some people are simply better than others, through no fault of either side. quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit That's not what I am saying and given your posting history, I am not surprised you would try and put it in those terms. Huh? Some people are better than others. That's reality. No Jungian concept of inner self-worth affirmative action is going to change that. quote: ORIGINAL: catize I will not feel inferior because someone else possesses knowledge or talent that I don’t. Whether you'd choose to feel it or not...you would be inferior in that particular category. This erroneous emotional attachment of self-esteem and self-worth to the status of varying degrees of competence in any and all facets of life is silly. Other points on this strange thread: The OP (poster) has admitted to being snotty in previous occurrences. That her tone in the initial post of this thread should be addressed as "snobbish" is not only accurate and not a personal attack...but it is also, it seems, right in line with what the OP (poster) would admit about herself. It is inevitably true that there are no "right" or "wrong" reasons for why someone gets into BDSM. There are only honest or dishonest reasons. Sometimes it takes someone time or a certain event to realize that, to be honest, they must admit having been subconsciously dishonest in previous self-appraisals. Although there are no "right" or "wrong" reasons for why someone gets into BDSM, there are (from an antrhopological point) 'healthy' and 'unhealthy' reasons (these can be linked to 'honest' and 'dishonest'). People sometimes (even if they actually get the analyses right) confuse this for "right/wrong". Anything else I need to clear up?? [;)]

saltatrix -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 3:40:09 PM)
quote: Okay....this is going to be my last reply to this, because you have somehow managed to warp this discussion into being about you and your issues. tut tut tut ........You lied Madrabbit that wasn't your last post. If we think about your comment, in a logical way, it is very difficult for someone to explain their point of view without stating how their point of view has been created. Therefore every post which is created on this site is about the indevidual poster and their "issues". Ho Hum that's the human race for you. Hi NuevaVida.......You see we think that it is ok to give our opinion about a persons life and relationships but there are some ythings that some people need to realise..............that to Soft Your Opinions Dont Matter. The only people who do matter are her friends, that is the people who actually know her. In real life. The ones she cooks dinners for. The ones who know what her taste in music is (it's crap, honest). So before anyone else creates another post about softness can we all please take a moment to think about whether it really will make a difference to her in this topsey turvey world. [:D] or just answer her OP.

juliaoceania -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 3:47:49 PM)
quote: Hi NuevaVida.......You see we think that it is ok to give our opinion about a persons life and relationships but there are some ythings that some people need to realise..............that to Soft Your Opinions Dont Matter. The only people who do matter are her friends, that is the people who actually know her. In real life. The ones she cooks dinners for. The ones who know what her taste in music is (it's crap, honest). So before anyone else creates another post about softness can we all please take a moment to think about whether it really will make a difference to her in this topsey turvey world. or just answer her OP. Hi Saltatrix... I value NuevaVida's opinion... so perhaps it is unimportant whether you or softness value it or not[;)] Edited to add, if a person wants to start a topic without caring what those who respond think about it... I wonder why the topic was started in the first place. Generally speaking I do not ask for input when I do not care to read it...

MadRabbit -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 4:34:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation Speak for yourself not everyone. I agree that is a very good practice which I follow with all the "I" statements in every one of my posts. Nice twist [;)] quote: And since I am cooly and non-offensively attempting to explain to you what I really meant so we can go back to being friends and given your continued ignorance and lack of acceptance of that, I would defiently consider this to be a personal vendetta. Continued ignorance? Because i disagree with some of the stuff you have sad? Lack of acceptance? Because i disagree with some of the stuff you have said? Personal vendetta? No definately not. I think some of your posts are great, enjoy reading them. Your posts on here, no i don't like or agree with them. A personal vendetta would be if i disagreed with everything you said and stated so on every thread you post in. This is a disagreement plain and simple over one topic of converation. Now please dont be o melodramatic. Miss, your more than welcome to disagree with me as long as you make some attempt to understand my opinion as opposed to what you think I said.

MadRabbit -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 4:43:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Some people are better than others. That's reality. No Jungian concept of inner self-worth affirmative action is going to change that. Reality would be some people are better than others at certain things or qualities, but to attempt to rank a person as a whole as being better than another person is completely subjective and completely arguable. The reasoning isn't even sound. Having a higher degree of skill at something simply means he has a higher degree of skill than me. Having more money than me means he has more money than me. Neither mean "he is a better person than me" outside of opinion.

catize -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 4:44:24 PM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: catize I will not feel inferior because someone else possesses knowledge or talent that I don’t. Whether you'd choose to feel it or not...you would be inferior in that particular category. This erroneous emotional attachment of self-esteem and self-worth to the status of varying degrees of competence in any and all facets of life is silly. What I said after is the important part: quote: I prefer to appreciate their abilities while feeling good about my own.

MadRabbit -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 4:46:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: saltatrix If we think about your comment, in a logical way, it is very difficult for someone to explain their point of view without stating how their point of view has been created. Therefore every post which is created on this site is about the indevidual poster and their "issues". Ho Hum that's the human race for you. Hey Saltatrix, So if I make a post about my opinion regarding the unfairness of the treatment of circus midgets, then logically I am a circus midget or there is a circus midget I am involved with in some personal way?

NuevaVida -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 4:49:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: saltatrix Hi NuevaVida.......You see we think that it is ok to give our opinion about a persons life and relationships but there are some ythings that some people need to realise..............that to Soft Your Opinions Dont Matter. The only people who do matter are her friends, that is the people who actually know her. In real life. The ones she cooks dinners for. The ones who know what her taste in music is (it's crap, honest). So before anyone else creates another post about softness can we all please take a moment to think about whether it really will make a difference to her in this topsey turvey world. [:D] or just answer her OP. Hi Saltatrix, Since soft & I have had conversations outside these forums and have helped each other through the termination of our relationships to our Masters, I can only hope my opinion is valued to some degree by her, as hers is valued by me. Unless you know her personally and are speaking here on her behalf as her spokesperson, I'll keep posting as I do, thank you. (Wouldn't your "your opinion doesn't matter" opinion also not matter, since I don't know you personally? [8D] ) And sometimes what someone writes here, whom I might not know, says something that I find quite valuable. So I'm glad they put it out there. Apparently others feel the same about mine, too, so I put it out there. Kinda the point of a message board. [;)] Seriously, though, some of the most surprising insight I've received on these boards has been from people I don't know well (or at all).

Mercnbeth -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 4:50:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied quote: I would rather be me than be submissive... I like this. It's more important to embrace who you are, than to try to fit into someone's (often narrow) view of what a submissive is and what a submissive does. I agree. It's a lesson I only recently learned. indeed. when this slave met Master, she thought for sure she was "submissive" and identified as such. turns out, she was His perception of "slave", not "submissive" and insists she refers to herself as "slave", every day. it wasn't until this slave encountered this website, that she discovered folks choose to submit at certain times, under certain conditions, for certain reasons. for instance, she never realized folks existed, like softness, who would take on a "submissive label" due to a lack of confidence when functioning in the vanilla world. truth be told, it boggles the mind, only because of the hardship this slave endured trying to function within vanilla relationships with none of the body-image issues that softness admits to having. seriously, this slave had friends admit to her that the only reason they wanted her to accompany them to the bar was because as a thin, beautiful redhead, this slave would be getting attention they wanted to be a part of. it made this slave feel sorry for them, just as she feels sorry for softness. it is this slave's belief that folks shouldn't have to pretend to be something they are not, just to get the attention they think they want. labels be damned, be yourself...just don't assume that everyone who labels them self submissive was abused, has a negative self-image or lives in some sort of Ivory Tower.

NuevaVida -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 4:50:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Hi Saltatrix... I value NuevaVida's opinion... so perhaps it is unimportant whether you or softness value it or not[;)] [sm=flowers.gif]

NihilusZero -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 5:04:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Reality would be some people are better than others at certain things or qualities, but to attempt to rank a person as a whole as being better than another person is completely subjective and completely arguable. Perhaps...but it all comes down to degrees of competence as a whole. Not that I'm not at all suggesting that any civil liberties should be suspended or decreased for someone not generally "better" (which we would both agree can mean most anything), only that the concept of "equality" is a red herring unless we are talking about solely about the freedom of an individual to freely seek out their own concept of happiness. quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit The reasoning isn't even sound. Having a higher degree of skill at something simply means he has a higher degree of skill than me. Having more money than me means he has more money than me. Neither mean "he is a better person than me" outside of opinion. "Better person" isn't the phrase/word that was used, though. That would seem to imply the worth of the individual to receive the aforementioned liberties/rights. Of course "better" is an indication of comparative skill....that's the point. Better at athletics. Better at chess. Better at relationships. Better at garnering friends. Better at... We inevitably try to draw a general circle around an individual as a whole and feel much more comfortable doing so when the totality of "better" of one person can nearly universally be identified (perhaps emotionally) by all. "Bono is better than Charles Manson". Heck...in very polar examples like that, it seems to me that many wouldn't even have a problem admitting that one can be a "better human being" than another (again, after defining whatever that means). The point is that equality is an illusion, despite the fact that we should seek to preserve civil liberties for all humans regardless of it (and even that changes, depending on if they've broken laws...which are themselves subjective lines drawn in the sand...).

NihilusZero -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 5:06:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize quote: quote: ORIGINAL: catize I will not feel inferior because someone else possesses knowledge or talent that I don’t. Whether you'd choose to feel it or not...you would be inferior in that particular category. This erroneous emotional attachment of self-esteem and self-worth to the status of varying degrees of competence in any and all facets of life is silly. What I said after is the important part: quote: I prefer to appreciate their abilities while feeling good about my own. While I find the prettiness of what you're saying sensible, part of me tends to think that the causative process of "feeling good about my own" wouldn't need to come about if I wasn't predisposed to "feel inferior" because of not being "better" in the first place.

CalifChick -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 5:07:36 PM)
I'm thinkin' that Soft's friends aren't doing her any favors on this thread. Trying to dictate that people ignore information posted and just answer a question? Good luck with that. And seeing insult where there is none? Good luck with that too. Cali

NuevaVida -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 5:09:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick I'm thinkin' that Soft's friends aren't doing her any favors on this thread. Trying to dictate that people ignore information posted and just answer a question? Good luck with that. And seeing insult where there is none? Good luck with that too. Cali I dunno, Cali, I thought I saw insults a few pages ago, but then my opinion doesn't matter. Strange day today...definitely a strange day.

persephonee -> RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods (10/12/2008 5:11:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida quote: ORIGINAL: softness ~By no means was my OP an attack on BDSMers in general, and I am saddened that some people have seen it that way. It was a response to the inbox full of email I had (many from regualar CM posters) that I had sold out and was besmirching the good name of BDSM. By no means do I mean this condescendingly, because I adore ya, but I saw your OP as written by someone who has recently been freed of a long, intense, all consuming relationship, and who is still discovering where to step next. Or hell, maybe I'm just projecting my own frame of mind onto it! [;)] Ironically, and this commented is related to no particular person or comment in this thread, but in general...I was thinking this morning how when people are insecure, they are criticized for not being strong and brave and confident and able to stand on their own. And when people are confident and strong and have high standards for themselves, they are criticized for having too much ego. I suppose there is an in between, and I suppose I could be warped in my thinking (wouldn't be the first time), but just food for thought. No, thats how i read it, too. perse

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