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RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/21/2008 9:54:27 PM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Like I stated in an earlier thread about "pro dommes" , if one really wants to split hairs.. they should all call themselves pro-submissives as they submit to their customers kinks and wants and do not really dominate anyone at all. It is all a facade and every "pro" does exactly what someone pays them to do.

C-D

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to Venatrix)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/21/2008 10:33:40 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover


 
Honestly, the water in Atlanta must be different than it is elsewhere.  Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many folks engaged in BDSM who are concerned about their privacy.  And there wouldn't be other folks who put pressure on the venues that rent us space for our events.  Or the folks who want to categorize WIITWD as hate, misogyny, abuse, mental illness and and countless other things.  Or the folks who condemn us all to hell.  In spite of the water shortage in the south, there seems to be something special in the water around Atlanta.  Someone should bottle that so we can share it with the rest of the country.
 
And if you're going to condemn me for having an opinion different than your own, then I suggest you look in the mirror before you begin questioning how open minded anyone might be, or thinks they are.
 
John



I think the more people try to "hide" the whole kinky thing, the worse off they are for it. Public education is a good thing. BDSM is not a secret society like some would like it to be; like it or not, the internet popped that bubble.

As far as the water in Atlanta, I actually go out, and people know what I do for a living. I don't hide in a dark corner with my whips and chains, making crazy demands about lotion.  I don't go into detail, but most people I know, know that I am a "Dominatrix" questions are asked, questions are answered, and lo and behold, I still have friends, job opportunities, and such.

Being paranoid only leads to other people assuming you actually have something to tweak out about.




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(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 12:37:29 AM   
DreamsOfSpider


Posts: 56
Joined: 12/4/2006
Status: offline 		Well, there are apparently more submissive males than dominant females. So, you have a bunch of guys who want a BDSM relationship... and can't find a woman to have one with. Add to the mix some women who will enact something like that kind of relationship... if the guys are willing to pay by the hour.

You really don't see where the bitterness is coming from?

I don't think there's anything wrong with dominating for fun and profit, and I don't doubt that there are people who find a pay-for-play relationship to be ideal. But there will always be people who are frustrated that such a relationship is the only kind available to them. It isn't your fault that they can't find a partner, of course.... but you're the one offering a temporary, expensive, and incomplete illusion of something they want, and can't have. If they're going to turn their bitterness on anyone, it's going to be you.

(in reply to Lynnxz)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 12:45:23 AM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

Like I stated in an earlier thread about "pro dommes" , if one really wants to split hairs.. they should all call themselves pro-submissives as they submit to their customers kinks and wants and do not really dominate anyone at all. It is all a facade and every "pro" does exactly what someone pays them to do.

C-D


that is an interesting view...for sure.

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 4:16:36 AM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamsOfSpider

Well, there are apparently more submissive males than dominant females. So, you have a bunch of guys who want a BDSM relationship... and can't find a woman to have one with. Add to the mix some women who will enact something like that kind of relationship... if the guys are willing to pay by the hour.

You really don't see where the bitterness is coming from?



I suspect you are reading to much into motives citing CD anlogy "and every "pro" does exactly what someone pays them to do."  

I would think some are married and want a diversion.  Not to different than the girls getting their nails done. The Pro really has no control if she doesn't perform the way the person wants, they go find someone who will do it there way.  If I don't like the service at a store I take my business elsewhere.

In the past I was offered "tribute" to do things to girls. Now that I'm thinking about it so was my brother, maybe it runs in the family.  Mine was bdsm related his was not. We rejected it without giving it a second thought.  So no I don't see the bitterness not at all.  It's more aobut choices you make in life.

BadOne 


< Message edited by SailingBum -- 10/22/2008 4:28:02 AM >

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

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We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 5:39:19 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

Being paranoid only leads to other people assuming you actually have something to tweak out about.


I don't believe anyone could credibly call me paranoid.  Most often I tend to be a voice of reason when folks get a bit carried away.  But the fact is, if you're a Dominatrix or a Top or a Dominant that tops, you do have something to be tweaked about.... what you're doing is illegal.
 
Let me say that again so it sinks in.  What we are familiar with as impact play is illegal.  In every state of the United States.  There is nothing paranoid about that, it's simply a fact.
 
And I personally agree with Joseph Bean when he said (and I'm paraphrasing) that it's a "dangerous dream" (verbatim quote) to work towards social and legal acceptance of BDSM.  That in making ourselves more visible, we would also make ourselves an easier target and create a backlash.  That we would be better served to simply be left alone.  Joseph has been around a fair bit, and knows more than a fair bit.  And I believe his advice is sound (I've even written about it, and in support of it).
 
Worse than having something to tweak is to have something to tweak and be ignorant of it.  It's your decision, of course, but you might consider making fewer confessions in your life to illegal activities.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Lynnxz)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 5:40:47 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamsOfSpider

Well, there are apparently more submissive males than dominant females.


Actually, there are more male bottoms than female Tops.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to DreamsOfSpider)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 8:07:47 AM   
DontUDare


Posts: 23
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

Like I stated in an earlier thread about "pro dommes" , if one really wants to split hairs.. they should all call themselves pro-submissives as they submit to their customers kinks and wants and do not really dominate anyone at all. It is all a facade and every "pro" does exactly what someone pays them to do.

C-D


Funny logic, so I guess none of the tops or dominants here ever negotiate a scene beforehand? I for one choose my customers on the premise that I will get a list from them, see if our kinks align and if they don't I won't take them on. And the scenes are never planed by the submissive, I allow him input and then arrange the scene on my terms on the same premise as I negotiate scenes in the lifestyle part of my domination. Some dommes will take requests for "just ad a domme to my fantasy" scenes, but not all. I by the way see nothing wrong with that, a part of many dommes kick is fulfilling their submissives needs and seeing them blossom in subspace. To me that is the beauty of D/s, the mutual enjoyment after negotiation. Generalizations like the one above has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

It is a common misconception that a submissive in any kind of scene is not in control. As I see it a submissive will come into a scene or relationship with either a pro-dominant or a dominant with needs to be met and people will find out the rules. The only part of the equation where the submissive is not in control as much as the dominant is when he temporarily gives the top or dominant the power, after having found out the dominant will indeed be meeting a need they have. No dominant has any more power then the amount given to them by their submissives. Not even in a TPE relationship, as those are started after a consensis has been made.

Domination is very much a state of mind in my books. An example from real live to clarify: I was at a party last year where a Alpha-male got his ego bruised by the fact a easy going boy in the party got more attention then he did. So to show his power he pinned the boy to the floor, the boy felt it was kind of weird and started laughing, feeling the situation was quite bizarre, the party started laughing with him. So while the Alpha-male had all the physical power in the situation, he really had no power at all. He started feeling more and more embarrassed and became a whimpering little boy at the end of this, not understanding why he felt no power in the situation. The easy going boy lying there pinned to the floor was the dominant in the situation although at first sight it would not seem so.

That being said, by the logic used by former poster, a pro-submissive is then actualy a pro-domme?

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 9:17:19 AM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline 		To my way of thinking, it's quite simple:  once you sell your dominance, it then belongs to the party buying it.  If I go to the supermarket for a loaf of bread, that loaf of bread belongs to the supermarket until I pay for it.  Once I pay for it, that loaf of bread is mine.  Selling one's dominance isn't a power exchange, it's a business transaction, as has been stated before.  I've no objection to it, but let's not tart up pro-domming to be something it isn't.

(in reply to DontUDare)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 9:29:29 AM   
DontUDare


Posts: 23
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline 		My point is more along the lines of, is the baker any less of a baker for selling his creation?

(in reply to Venatrix)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 9:50:44 AM   
Chi


Posts: 68
Joined: 1/31/2005
Status: offline 		We all sell ourselves in one way or another, some by the hour, others by the week, month, or quarter. I sell my service, my skill, and expertise, in that respect I am as much a whore as the woman working the corner but like the woman working the corner, I know what I am and do not try to sanitize it by the use of the word pro. I am an American businessman, therefore a whore. The minute a client walks into my door he/she knows the chances of my working on their venture are slim and even discussing it with me is going to be expensive and the more I increase my costs the more there are clients entering my door.

(in reply to MistressRouge)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 10:49:00 AM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DontUDare


Funny logic, so I guess none of the tops or dominants here ever negotiate a scene beforehand? I for one choose my customers on the premise that I will get a list from them, see if our kinks align and if they don't I won't take them on. And the scenes are never planed by the submissive, I allow him input and then arrange the scene on my terms on the same premise as I negotiate scenes in the lifestyle part of my domination. Some dommes will take requests for "just ad a domme to my fantasy" scenes, but not all. I by the way see nothing wrong with that, a part of many dommes kick is fulfilling their submissives needs and seeing them blossom in subspace. To me that is the beauty of D/s, the mutual enjoyment after negotiation. Generalizations like the one above has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.


That being said, by the logic used by former poster, a pro-submissive is then actualy a pro-domme?



I aint buying it.  You expect me to believe that the same dynamics happen between my girl and me, are the same dynamics that happen between you and someone that is paying for it?   Sheer bullshit.  My girl does it cuz she loves to serve me.  Your client does it because he is paying you for it.  Entirely different reasons. 

For all you know. They just might enjoi being whipped flogged, whatever and NOT have a submissive bone in thier body.  In reality once money changes hands you are serving them  Guess what if you don't do what they want, they will go down the street to the next pro who will do their way. 

It's just like any other service industry, be it someone doing your taxes or getting your hair done.

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to DontUDare)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 11:15:38 AM   
DontUDare


Posts: 23
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline 		I don't do one timers and never have, I as I said pick my customers, just as you picked your girl and she you I suppose. I have never said that it is a love relationship, not all D/s relationships are. And just as there are millions of different relationship types in BDSM, my relationships with my boys are truly personal. They feel good about helping improve my lifestyle. The only thing that changed after I started pro-domming is the exchange of money, it is still the same process I used to use when picking submissives to play with, believe it or not that is the fact in my case.

I also have a lifestyle submissive in my care, and a boyfriend, and apply same principles to all of these relationships.

You said your girl does it because she loves to serve you? Well my customers also pay to be near me because love to serve me, and know that pleases me.


< Message edited by DontUDare -- 10/22/2008 11:21:35 AM >

(in reply to SailingBum)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 12:02:54 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DontUDare

I don't do one timers and never have, I as I said pick my customers, just as you picked your girl and she you I suppose. I have never said that it is a love relationship, not all D/s relationships are. And just as there are millions of different relationship types in BDSM, my relationships with my boys are truly personal. They feel good about helping improve my lifestyle. The only thing that changed after I started pro-domming is the exchange of money, it is still the same process I used to use when picking submissives to play with, believe it or not that is the fact in my case.

I also have a lifestyle submissive in my care, and a boyfriend, and apply same principles to all of these relationships.

You said your girl does it because she loves to serve you? Well my customers also pay to be near me because love to serve me, and know that pleases me.



You just don't get it my point is there is a huge difference in motives bet love and paying someone.  I did not imply that bdsm was about love tho it can be.  By your own admisison you are doing what your customers want and not what you want otherwise they wouldnt be customers for very long.  I am trying to understand your position.  Right now it's clear as mud

If the relationship bet you and you clients is so endearing, why do you charge them?

BadOne



_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to DontUDare)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 1:29:13 PM   
DontUDare


Posts: 23
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline 		"By your own admisison you are doing what your customers want and not what you want otherwise they wouldnt be customers for very long."
I said, I choose customers that are looking for the same from play as I do. Just as any dominant or sub does. Which means I am doing what I want. Yes that means they get what they want, but it also means that I don't cater to needs that aren't what I like to do, I refuse more customers then I accept.

"If the relationship bet you and you clients is so endearing, why do you charge them?"
Because there is only one of me, my time is limited and also my resources for renting a place to play, or buy equipment to do so.

This discussion reminds me a lot of a an experience a friend of mine shared with me. She is a healer, and had been doing healing work for friends for a long time, more and more people came to her, friends and family and one day she realized that although she really wanted to, she just could not muster doing this any more. Her choice was to start charging so she could spend more time doing what she loved and to have the opportunity to give her all into her work and rent a place to do her work in, instead of just using the remaining energy she had after work and everything else. She got the exact same response from the new-age scene. Somehow her healing was not the same if she charged, she couldn't have as good a connection to her subjects yadayada.

Maybe the mud is on your glasses and not in my comments?

(in reply to SailingBum)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 1:30:55 PM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DontUDare

Funny logic, so I guess none of the tops or dominants here ever negotiate a scene beforehand? I for one choose my customers on the premise that I will get a list from them, see if our kinks align and if they don't I won't take them on. And the scenes are never planed by the submissive, I allow him input and then arrange the scene on my terms on the same premise as I negotiate scenes in the lifestyle part of my domination. Some dommes will take requests for "just ad a domme to my fantasy" scenes, but not all. I by the way see nothing wrong with that, a part of many dommes kick is fulfilling their submissives needs and seeing them blossom in subspace. To me that is the beauty of D/s, the mutual enjoyment after negotiation. Generalizations like the one above has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

It is a common misconception that a submissive in any kind of scene is not in control. As I see it a submissive will come into a scene or relationship with either a pro-dominant or a dominant with needs to be met and people will find out the rules. The only part of the equation where the submissive is not in control as much as the dominant is when he temporarily gives the top or dominant the power, after having found out the dominant will indeed be meeting a need they have. No dominant has any more power then the amount given to them by their submissives. Not even in a TPE relationship, as those are started after a consensis has been made.

Domination is very much a state of mind in my books. An example from real live to clarify: I was at a party last year where a Alpha-male got his ego bruised by the fact a easy going boy in the party got more attention then he did. So to show his power he pinned the boy to the floor, the boy felt it was kind of weird and started laughing, feeling the situation was quite bizarre, the party started laughing with him. So while the Alpha-male had all the physical power in the situation, he really had no power at all. He started feeling more and more embarrassed and became a whimpering little boy at the end of this, not understanding why he felt no power in the situation. The easy going boy lying there pinned to the floor was the dominant in the situation although at first sight it would not seem so.

That being said, by the logic used by former poster, a pro-submissive is then actualy a pro-domme?



By that logic then, the submissive is the one with the power. Correct? Absolutely.

But having power does not make them powerful. That is why the power sharing or exchange is so commonplace in wiitwd.

And BTW. To me the example you used in no way shape or form defines what an "Alpha" is to me. The person you described sounded like an immature and insecure poseur. *shrugs*

C-D

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to DontUDare)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 1:41:15 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		Ugh.

I am a Pro switch, because if I said "Hey I'm a switch, and I play with lots of people" then I'd get all kinds of cheap basement dwellers trying to squeese under my door.

I do not charge because I'm a greedy whore, I do not charge just to break even, I charge to make a profit, put myself and another one through school, and to make a living unil I get the job I really want.

All the "Omg not submissive, not really dominant" arguement is crap, you are complaining about the twue meaning of the word, and no one's ever going to agree on it.

I enjoy what I do, I do not enjoy working my butt off waitressing. I enjoy having the extra cash to pay for my little brothers summer engineering classes, and paying off my mothers car. I enjoy starting another business, having nothing to do with bdsm, and meeting a lot of kick ass people. I do not fuck when I work. I do not fuck, I do not hump anything, this is happy fun sexy time, but not the time to get your rocks off.

I do not enjoy going to munches, and having some pouty lifestyle thing bitch and complain because someone told her I was a pro, and it hurt her little feelers. Also... I am young. Young and a pro-something or another... what the hell I MUST be a fake money grubbing bitch by that logic.


_____________________________

HBIC



(in reply to DontUDare)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 1:49:24 PM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline
Money in exchange for kink still equals prostitution to a lot of people . Just because he or she does not "cum" at the time and place of the monetary exchange, does not mean that they are not receiving some sort of sexual pleasure from the interaction.

Do I care what people do behind closed doors and how they make their money?  Hell no. But, if you put lipstick on a pig and try to tell everyone it is a super model, not everyone is going to believe you. Especially me.  
C-D

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to Lynnxz)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 1:57:01 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

Like I stated in an earlier thread about "pro dommes" , if one really wants to split hairs.. they should all call themselves pro-submissives as they submit to their customers kinks and wants and do not really dominate anyone at all. It is all a facade and every "pro" does exactly what someone pays them to do.

C-D


Yet if you take this same analogy one step further, a Pro Domme simply takes several aspects of BDSM and offers these services to their clients, granted it is for a fee. Yet a baker or a plumber or any other type of trades person also offers their services for a fee. If a person wanted to really split hairs, even a a couple in a D/s relationship is offering their services for some type of a fee, though it's not in cash.
A "D" type person offers their dominance to an "s" type in exchange for a person who submits to them, they receive in exchange a power exchange in their favor as well as a getting a companion/partner and an outlet to express their desires. The "s" type person offers their submission in exchange to fulfill their desires to submit, being part of a D/s partnership, being able to express wants/needs/desires they aren't able to in a vanilla relationship. It's the same general situations yet the currency is in a different form.

Let me ask this: A submissive in a healthy D/s dynamic is driven to please their Doms. Yes they do so because they want to yet they do so because they do not want to risk the Dom's displeasure/anger/disappointment thus they do whatever it takes to be good,. This is too is a way for the submissive to exercise a bit of control so why is this different then a person paying a Pro for an hour or two of their time to experience some aspects of BDSM? Power exchanges are never absolute, it is exchange back and forth in varying degrees and it is never handed over 100% to another, no matter how submissive or dominant a person is.


_____________________________

Do Not Rile da Chosen Bear

Promiscuous boy you already know
That I’m all yours what you waiting for?

Resident MANWHORE ~1000 Bear pts~

10 NZ points
Whips~n~Cuffs

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Pro-Style Fusion - Stigma. - 10/22/2008 2:03:47 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		C-D, you say that "money in exchange for kink still equals prostitution for many people." I am wondering if this is also your feelings and if so, would this also apply to people who craft kink toys for sale? 

_____________________________

Do Not Rile da Chosen Bear

Promiscuous boy you already know
That I’m all yours what you waiting for?

Resident MANWHORE ~1000 Bear pts~

10 NZ points
Whips~n~Cuffs

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 100
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