RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion



Message

Icarys -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 5:45:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Don't have a problem when someone disagrees but when they do the same things that they point out is bad in others it kinda loses any merit in my mind.



No, we aren't doing the same things at all and since this is what I consider to be an important discussion that presents information people might use for their own theories of relationships, let me explain why.

I'm a thinker. A scientist. My brain doesn't deal solely with simple ideas, but rather I work by building entire systems of ideas that all work in sync with one another. If there is a hole in my logic or if my approach doesn't take into account something, I am going to deal with it.

Your presenting your own methodolgy of how you work as a dominant that you are asserting to be a "right" and valid way of doing things, but unfortanely when I look at it and think it through, there is a number of holes in it.
  • You claim that the success of relationship should be based off finding a compatible partner that doesn't require you to change. I agree to a degree, but unfortanely if that relationship is going to have longevity, the fact that people grow and change has to be addressed. So obviously if during the relationship we will have to work towards closing the gap that occurs by that change and growth, why isn't change and growth to make a relationship work okay?
  • If we take a look at this at solely on a principle of probability, finding a partner who doesn't require you to change or work past differences AT ALL has chances in a range that are completely unrealistic.
  • You say that you are willing to take input and willing to change to some degree, but aren't willing to "mold yourself to another person's ideals" like we are doing. You don't seem to have any specific criterion as to what change is acceptable and what change quantifies as being the negative of "conforming to another person's ideals" so this statement doesn't seem to be based on logic but rather on ego. Your okay with changing just as long as that change doesn't insult your own dominance.


If you've read any of my post's over time here you'd have seen my "attitude" when it comes to the "right" way of doing things. My way is only right for me no one else.My method has potential flaws in it as any other method does. No one method is perfect and try as you might it will never be. The "truth" in my ways extends to me and mine and if she didn't trust me in my way then why bother?

As for laying out a criteria on how My way would work..there are just to many variables and truthfully I try not to be as long winded as some.

Your okay with changing just as long as that change doesn't insult your own dominance.

It's not about ego because as you pointed out..It's a very small one. It's about making sure I don't compromise myself and the dynamic in a rush to give her what she wants or even needs for that matter. I weigh everything out and I do what's best for all first. Then Me then her.

I'm not a scientist but I am a thinker. Although I did stay in a holiday in once.[:D]





KnightofMists -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 6:49:16 AM)

quote:


Unfortunately all too often, that attention wains after the relationship settles in and the new "infatuation" wears off, and voila... we're no longer speaking compatible languages.


This is a very good point and not just a male thing... it's a human being thing.  In the book I recomend it discusses those very early infatuations and as LA calls it New relationship Energy.

In fact those ideas are can be rooted into some scientific research.  Dr Tennov coined the term "limerance" to indentify this phase.  It is not to say that people can't or don't love in these early phases, but something else is happening that is a more biological and temporary.

to quote the book with regards to this phase

"is a genetically determinded instinctual component of mating behavior.  In other words, the temporary collaspe of ego boundaries that constitutes falling in love is a stereotypic response of human beings to a configuration of internal sexual drives and external sexual simuli, which serves to increase the probability of sexual paring and bonding so as to enhance the survival of the species"

The research goes on to say that this phase on average last approximately 2 years.  Which means it can be shorter or longer.. so lets not get caught up on the 2 years number.  However, this phase does seem to cause what some call looking at the relationship with "Rose Coloured Glasses".  Once this effects of the phase start to recede we begin to have more balanced view of our reality.  Many relationships function rather effectively through this phase, but others not so much.  When consider divorce rates, it's interesting to consider that 1/3 of divorces occur within the first 3 years.  It would be interesting to know if this is still within the first 3 years of the intimate realationship as well.

Regardless, I think with awareness of these factors, we can take steps that will help us and not allow this biological factor become to influencial in our decisions.   Even though we might never heard of the research, how many parents have guided their young to take their time etc when they begin an intimate relationship.  We as a society might not know the research, but we do seem to be intutively aware of the affects of "Falling-In-Love" period has on our decisions and view of the world.  And it seems science is showing us we have these concerns for good reason.



leadership527 -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 7:27:26 AM)

Hey, to be clear Icarys, I'm not sure that I am disagreeing with you.

So long as you have somehow gotten your subs needs/desires/goals/etc. included in your own, then all is good. I dont' care how that happened. Perhaps you found someone who was close enough then did some adjusting on your own. Perhaps you waited longer until you found someone who is perfect and did no adjusting. Either way, no worries. Sub's needs are going to be dealt with so relationship succeeds.

My only real concern with what you've said is I'm not sure how you intend to deal with the fact that people change over time. So the perfect woman today will be imperfect tomorrow.

Just as an aside now, I'll point out that you haven't really encompassed my viewpoint quite right. So you know, I don't see myself "compromising" to obtain a woman. I just have a bigger bullseye to hit than you. But it's still a bullseye to me. In addition, I'm not quite sure how to work out what happened between my wife and I in your system. Here she is, the woman that has been making me very happy for almost 15 years now. But damn, if I had ever produced a list of all the things I wanted in a woman, there is NO way I ever would've picked her.

Really, when you get down to it, I think the only point worth making about this whole "my way/her way" thing is that somehow, any viable relationship must start providing the wants/needs of BOTH participants and must have a way to ensure that continues to be true over long periods of time. That's just a given of "relationship math". How any given couple achieves that and what exactly those needs/wants are is all entirely variable.



leadership527 -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 7:49:04 AM)

quote:

The research goes on to say that this phase on average last approximately 2 years.  Which means it can be shorter or longer.. so lets not get caught up on the 2 years number.  However, this phase does seem to cause what some call looking at the relationship with "Rose Coloured Glasses".  Once this effects of the phase start to recede we begin to have more balanced view of our reality.  Many relationships function rather effectively through this phase, but others not so much.  When consider divorce rates, it's interesting to consider that 1/3 of divorces occur within the first 3 years.  It would be interesting to know if this is still within the first 3 years of the intimate realationship as well.


*nods* It is for this reason that I see relationships below about 5 years as short-term. I figure look, you have two years on auto-pilot courtesy of said rose colored glasses. After that, it takes some time for things to fall apart... figure another year or two. So even a relationship which started failing the moment it could still gets 3-4 years. All of which assumes, of course, that the relationship participants' goal was to end up in a lifelong, committed relationship which I full well understand is not the goal for a significant portion of the BDSM audience.



thetammyjo -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 8:22:21 AM)

This is a great book recommendation, KnightofMists, for everyone I think.

We recently used this is our own household and learned a lot about all of the folks in it. We even made little charts so we could track how each of us shows and reads affection and this has helped us a lot.

We also looked at how important our senses are to each other -- processing modalities -- and this has also added to our group and couple communications as well.

Not too surprisingly I'm the most complex member of the household. In the "five languages of love" none of the outweigh the others for me but there must be consistency throughout. The husband needs verbal and the slave need physical more than the others.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 8:23:59 AM)

~ Fast Reply ~
 
This isn't representing any form of  'OTW'; however I think most of the responses touched on the the cause of relationship problems and missed a solution. Not THE solution, but a solution or maybe just a perspective that we cite as our cause for success, so far. "So far" because unless/until we're sharing space in an urn you never know what the future holds.

In my opinion the focus is the problem. I've seen most, if not all, point to individual change and the need to change, some use the more subtle mold version. There may be change, in appearance, attitude, but ideally it should be more of the sculpting sort. Sculpting, because as Michaelangelo said, he didn't create his masterpiece Moses by changing the marble, he said he only removed from the stone the parts that weren't Moses. Change that is derived from an individual exposing more of their self, means they are not being changed at all. For this type of change to be a positive influence it must come from a position of self confidence and the person needs to be ready to like what gets exposed.

MR posted a nice three point response to apply the concept:

quote:

You claim that the success of relationship should be based off finding a compatible partner that doesn't require you to change. I agree to a degree, but unfortunately if that relationship is going to have longevity, the fact that people grow and change has to be addressed. So obviously if during the relationship we will have to work toward closing the gap that occurs by that change and growth, why isn't change and growth to make a relationship work okay?
The answer to the question is contained in one word of the question - 'work'. Most would disagree, but 'work' should never be used in the same sentence in reference to a relationship. When someone is 'worked on' they can resent not only the person working on them, but the result. 'Work' is the application of effort and force against force. It creates a fertile ground for resentment. The individuals involved may not even realize the resentment is being created. They discover it when 'leaving the toilet seat up' leads to a knock down drag out argument. Also - Why is there a need to close gaps? Gaps are good, gaps are fun, gaps are reasons to have discussions and try new things.

quote:

If we take a look at this at solely on a principle of probability, finding a partner who doesn't require you to change or work past differences AT ALL has chances in a range that are completely unrealistic.
Absolutely on target; between beth and I there is more not in common than in common. Our backgrounds, our political philosophy, even the way we raised our progeny are in total opposition; she also doesn't like bleu cheese. The point being that at neither end of the common 'politically correct' deemed important spectrum is there common ground. Neither of us have tried to change the other's beliefs. Our differences aren't important, our common ground is.

quote:

You say that you are willing to take input and willing to change to some degree, but aren't willing to "mold yourself to another person's ideals" like we are doing. You don't seem to have any specific criterion as to what change is acceptable and what change quantifies as being the negative of "conforming to another person's ideals" so this statement doesn't seem to be based on logic but rather on ego. Your okay with changing just as long as that change doesn't insult your own dominance.
I'd take "insult" out of the last sentence and replace it with 'interfere'. You also don't need to point it to a single concept of dominance; it would work in submission, in, or outside any lifestyle reference.

There's no magic elixir or spell for love and again we represent only current success without future guarantee; however unless and until you can remove the 'I' from consideration of action and replace it with 'we', 'us', and 'our' love won't happen. It should come as a result of the important common ground you have between you. There is no compromise, no rationalization. You don't even need to sacrifice personal tastes; beth can still mix thousand island and ranch on her salad while I enjoy bleu cheese. It doesn't effect the much more critical and important common ground at the core concept that existed nearly six years ago when I responded to her ad - she saw herself submissive, I dominant.

At first we spent quite some time making sure we had a common definition of those words; we advanced to defining and agreeing on Master/slave. Those definitions are relationship specific; documented in a 'Contract' meaningless to anyone but us, but still providing a reference of what both of us deemed important enough to write down and commit to. We anticipated personal growth, and the evolution of us as well as the world around us. We committed to continuing to sculpt and expose more of ourselves to each other. One thing we specifically didn't want to do was change the other; even the parts that didn't match, or conflicted on our compatibility chart. Some may think I take it to the extreme in one particular example. beth smoked when we met - she smokes now. I don't and don't like that she does. Within our relationship I have the ability to force that change, but it would change her so I don't force the issue. she'll quit smoking if/when the chunk of marble that causes her to need to smoke is removed.

We are individuals. We don't put the other above 'self'. Simply put we put 'us' above 'I'. It serves as our definition of LOVE. Our focus and decisions made serve 'us'. We have confidence in each other. Our 'LOVE' is defined through our commitment not necessarily to each other. or having perfectly compatible needs/desires, but to the merged entity created when we met. 



WhiplashSmile2 -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 10:31:13 AM)

For me personally all these aspects are important in a healthy relationship.  I make it a point to stress words of affirmation in regards to how I honestly feel and think about somebody.   Quality time is a big must have for me, without it, things can and do start to drift apart.   Acts of service is a bit of two way street in my book as well.  Just not what a submissive can do for me, it's also about what I can do for them as well.   Physical touch, on the most basic and simplist forms is important to me.  To touch and be touched.  I love touching the face, holding hands and physical contact.  Even temporary body art such as drawing upon one another is quality bonding time with touch involved.  

Taking time to speak words of affirmation is quality time.  Quality time does not have to be for hours on end.   However, it gives two people a moment to communicate, talk and bond with one another.

Without Quality time together to touch, to speak or to do things for one another, or exchange gifts, the world can go to hell in a hand basket.

With that said, Quality time in probally the cornerstone to fillfulling all the other aspects that were pointed out in the OP.



heartfeltsub -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 10:41:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheMadBunny
And if being willing to be influenced by my submissive in regards to my decisions contradicts and negates my possession of authority in the relationship, then I will be the first one to turn in my Master card.


Yeah, I'm with you on that one. "MY" way includes her way. It's as simple as that. If that makes me a wishy washy Master, no worries there, I'm pretty ok with being "That guy who's woman obeys him and who has a deliriously happy marriage." From a "marketing" standpoint, I have to observe that for every sub out there who wants a badass dom, there appears to be another who wants a caring, loving relationship so if the target audience is any guide (and what the hell else would be a guide?) then apparently it IS domly to care about your sub and to recognize her value as a life partner, not simply a slave.

What I find most interesting about the "my way or the highway" thought pattern is that these people have, apparently, not given much thought to why, exactly, a smart, competent, and capable submissive would be following them. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that smart, competent, and capable people (which is who I want as a partner for the rest of my life), make choices that enhance their own lives. That implies that somehow, this person who is smart, must be convinced that following my lead is better for them than not. If I have failed to incorporate their needs, wants, desires, and dreams into my lead, then I'm not really sure how I could really make that claim.

I do things my way because I enjoy it and what I'm looking for is someone who is "looking in the same direction I am"(taken off of Darcyandthe.dark's tag line I believe :>
There are females who enjoy what you seem to look down on.  I won't mold myself to someone Else's idea of what I should be whether it's the female or another Dominant. Yet I don't disregard her input either.

It's not a bad thing to learn your partner as best you can but it's also a better idea I think to pick those partners that best suit you. If you want to grab the first female you can and try to "broaden" your horizons..go to it. I'll stick to what I know works for me.
If I'm suspect for it, I'll be glad to turn in My Dominants Members Only Card.



As i commented on leader's original comment about my way or the highway, i would like to further comment on this response to his and MR's statements. As this is a board for those who either like some level of S/M activities or D/s relationships i am going to assume some ideas to start with.  First assumption, as a submissive, i know for myself and i assume a bit for others that most women who call themselves submissive are looking for a strong Dominant to lead, to choose the way so that the way that gets chosen will be "the Dominant's way". i will also assume from the Dominants that i have met, that Dominants are looking to lead,  to choose the way so that the way that gets chosen will be "their way". That is the nature of the compatibility of a D/s relationship, someone wants to give the authority to make decisions or choices to Another who wishes to make said decisions or choices.


That being said, there is a VAST difference between meaning of the statement "It is My way or the highway" when it is spoken if one underlying premise is not the same. And that premise is this, do suggestions, requests, etc. automatically get discarded as an attempt to "top from the bottom" so that the submissive's wants or desires are never going to be considered in the decision or are those wants or desires given some thought, but are not necessarily going to be granted based on what is wisest for the relationship as a whole or the Dominant's preferences at the time.  i know for myself it is the latter type of relationship that i was (a) looking for and (b) am now in.


What i don't understand is this. Icarys, you stated in the section that i have bolded and underlined that you don't disregard your submissives input. i do not see how that is any different that what MR was saying, when choosing a course of action, if his submissive's desires or input are given, he chooses which action to take as he sees fit. Both of you are choosing the way, in both instances it is "your" way. How is that any different, why is one seen as somehow making one less of a Dominant than the other?


* Edited to add. While i like, need, get off on being in a relationship where my vote is a hanging chad, it may or may not be counted, i could not be in nor would i do well in a relationship where my wants, desires are summarily dismissed as not important enough to consider. And that is what is often both meant and heard with the statement "It is either My way or the highway"


heartfelt



SimplyMichael -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 1:42:15 PM)

heartfeltsub,

And this gets us back to KOM's bit about "Her needs before mine, my wants before hers"...

The thing is, my needs and wants are very different from someone else's as theirs are from mine.  The trick is to find someone who causes that magical chemical/emotional reaction in you (ie, makes your cock hard or your cunt wet) and then to grow toward each other rather than apart.  The discussion about love languages, is simply one facet of making all that work.  To me, if I find that woman you can be damn sure I am going to work (sorry Merc) to do everything in my power to make her feel delirously loved, safe, and taken care of.  Why?  Because I can then use her as my personal  fucktoy, footstool,  and or anything else that amuses me AND I can go to sleep at night knowing she will be there in the morning and so will the small delicate parts of my anatomy.



Icarys -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 5:42:08 PM)


[/quote]



What i don't understand is this. Icarys, you stated in the section that i have bolded and underlined that you don't disregard your submissives input. i do not see how that is any different that what MR was saying, when choosing a course of action, if his submissive's desires or input are given, he chooses which action to take as he sees fit. Both of you are choosing the way, in both instances it is "your" way. How is that any different, why is one seen as somehow making one less of a Dominant than the other?


* Edited to add. While i like, need, get off on being in a relationship where my vote is a hanging chad, it may or may not be counted, i could not be in nor would i do well in a relationship where my wants, desires are summarily dismissed as not important enough to consider. And that is what is often both meant and heard with the statement "It is either My way or the highway"


heartfelt
[/quote]
I have no problem with anyone being what they want..what I had a problem with is what I perceived as an ill tone when talking about my own personal choices.
(not directed at you but in general) Disagreeing with me is one thing but using underlying subtle digs as i see it aren't conducive to any debate. I firmly believe in and have no problem backing up what i say.

I've been blessed to come across a few females that believe that their strongest desire in life was to give to others. That was and is what their needs and wants are. They placed others ahead of them not because it was something they had to do but it was something they were driven to do. They were simply happy to serve and that was what they wanted. There are some who don't want to be "considered" when it comes to input and just trust that they will be taken care in the ways that their Dominant's decide. Nothing wrong with either side or the numerous variations thereof.

Hopefully I didn't go off too much away from what you are saying.



Padriag -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 5:48:06 PM)

I'm both amazed and amused this argument is still going.  I'm even making popcorn.  That and wondering when any of those involved are going to finally stop trying to change the other's mind and actually practice some of that "tolerance" and "your kink may not be my kink..." crap that gets waved on a banner here so often.  Not that I'm holding my breath waiting, but it is entertaining.



Icarys -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 6:06:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I'm both amazed and amused this argument is still going.  I'm even making popcorn.  That and wondering when any of those involved are going to finally stop trying to change the other's mind and actually practice some of that "tolerance" and "your kink may not be my kink..." crap that gets waved on a banner here so often.  Not that I'm holding my breath waiting, but it is entertaining.

Is it really crap to you or are you just joking there?



MadRabbit -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 6:27:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I'm both amazed and amused this argument is still going.  I'm even making popcorn.  That and wondering when any of those involved are going to finally stop trying to change the other's mind and actually practice some of that "tolerance" and "your kink may not be my kink..." crap that gets waved on a banner here so often.  Not that I'm holding my breath waiting, but it is entertaining.


Oh come on now Padraig. From all our private correspondence, I would hope you know that any aggressive argument on my part is not to "change anyone's mind" but just to make people think.

It's an Internet discussion and I certainly don't kid myself into thinking I really have any influence on what people do beyond this totally irrelevant, anonymous, theoretical discussion.

If somebody submits a methodology that doesn't add up on an issue I think is worth responding to, I am going to question it and point it out. And sorry, statements of "My way is right. Don't question it" doesn't really cut it for me especially when I take the time to defend any of my opinions when they come under scrutiny.

If I question the validity of slicing open a submissive's arties during blood play, am I being "intolerant" and "disrespecting another's kink"?

I've made a lot of points regarding the flaws of compatibility and resistance to change as a dominant and the end result was quite a lot of nuanced and informative posts from a lot of perspectives.




Icarys -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 6:28:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Hey, to be clear Icarys, I'm not sure that I am disagreeing with you.

So long as you have somehow gotten your subs needs/desires/goals/etc. included in your own, then all is good. I dont' care how that happened. Perhaps you found someone who was close enough then did some adjusting on your own. Perhaps you waited longer until you found someone who is perfect and did no adjusting. Either way, no worries. Sub's needs are going to be dealt with so relationship succeeds.

My only real concern with what you've said is I'm not sure how you intend to deal with the fact that people change over time. So the perfect woman today will be imperfect tomorrow.

Just as an aside now, I'll point out that you haven't really encompassed my viewpoint quite right. So you know, I don't see myself "compromising" to obtain a woman. I just have a bigger bullseye to hit than you. But it's still a bullseye to me. In addition, I'm not quite sure how to work out what happened between my wife and I in your system. Here she is, the woman that has been making me very happy for almost 15 years now. But damn, if I had ever produced a list of all the things I wanted in a woman, there is NO way I ever would've picked her.

Really, when you get down to it, I think the only point worth making about this whole "my way/her way" thing is that somehow, any viable relationship must start providing the wants/needs of BOTH participants and must have a way to ensure that continues to be true over long periods of time. That's just a given of "relationship math". How any given couple achieves that and what exactly those needs/wants are is all entirely variable.

I wouldn't use the word perfect just matched very well.
For the most part and especially including the bold text I think you reflect in your statements an understanding of what I have in mind. I would add that "her needs" are being met simply because my needs and her needs are the same.  I don't have to "work" on very much because it's an extremely well matched symbiotic relationship. Well defined "roles" are swell aren't they?



Padriag -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 8:23:29 PM)

Well... I'm tempted to smile mysteriously and walk away... except you couldn't actually see that and which ruins the whole effect.  So... guess I'll be serious.

The answer is... yes, I find much of the so called "tolerance" and supposed acceptance of one another often tauted on these forae to be so much horse hockey.  People are often paying PC lip service to how "there's no one twue way" while industriously arguing with others about how their own way is correct and the other person's is wrong.  Don't look now Betty, but we're knee deep in hipocrisy and the river's still rising.

This "debate" has turned into a pissing contest between various parties about who's theory on relationships is "right" and who's "wrong"... truth is, do what the fuck you want so long as it makes you happy and who the hell cares what anyone else does.  Course if most of those involved really believed that, this thread would have died six pages ago... an that would have spoiled the opportunity for several individuals to stroke their egos and puff up their feathers.



Icarys -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 9:35:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Well... I'm tempted to smile mysteriously and walk away... except you couldn't actually see that and which ruins the whole effect.  So... guess I'll be serious.

The answer is... yes, I find much of the so called "tolerance" and supposed acceptance of one another often tauted on these forae to be so much horse hockey.  People are often paying PC lip service to how "there's no one twue way" while industriously arguing with others about how their own way is correct and the other person's is wrong.  Don't look now Betty, but we're knee deep in hipocrisy and the river's still rising.

This "debate" has turned into a pissing contest between various parties about who's theory on relationships is "right" and who's "wrong"... truth is, do what the fuck you want so long as it makes you happy and who the hell cares what anyone else does.  Course if most of those involved really believed that, this thread would have died six pages ago... an that would have spoiled the opportunity for several individuals to stroke their egos and puff up their feathers.

It's all just mental masturbation in the end isn't it...including yours..Your right though..none of it matters...We all will do what we want.



Padriag -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/22/2008 9:39:25 PM)

Yup



heartfeltsub -> RE: Communicating our love in our lifestyle relationships (10/23/2008 5:47:39 AM)

May i ask how my asking a question, which i considered both politely worded and something that i genuinely was interested in hearing the answer to, is fomenting an argument or continuing an argument?

heartfelt



Page: <<   < prev  6 7 8 9 [10]

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875