RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 9:36:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

rulemylife

too bad you do not know me.  i am a registered republican.  never denied it!  just because i am a registered pub, i do not always vote pub......give me a break!

but like many have stated in another thread about Colin Powell, all can be redeemed!.........ha!


Does that mean we can redeem you away from the darkside to vote Democrat?




bestbabync -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 9:38:53 PM)

nope nope!  not this time.  i am a pub that voted for Bill Clinton remember?  i have given both sides a fair chance.  they both let me down!

so now, i am voting 3rd party for the first time.




Kirata -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 10:01:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

With that extra $10, I can go buy some apples .. or, you know.. oranges. [8D]

Ooooooo... or some shrimp!!
 
But help me out here if I'm being dense. If the marginal tax rate on either tier in your example goes up, I'll still be paying more taxes. And if its the second tier, then the more I earn the harder I'll get bitten. If there's some kind of shell game going on here in using marginal tax rates to compare tax systems, I guess I'm a rube.
 
Incidentally, though, my concern is more with corporate than personal taxes. High corporate taxes are a brake on the economy. I sit on the Executive Committee of a financial services corporation (Priest-Kings forgive me) and I see it every day. Giving people a few extra tax-reduction dollars in their pocket isn't going to go far. In the current economy, if corporate taxes don't go down then payroll expenses will have to. We've already started reducing staff at our branch offices, and believe me it's a real heartbreaker.
 
K.
 
 
 
 




bestbabync -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 10:10:45 PM)

Kirata

do you think lowering the Corporate Tax as some of the candidates suggest, bring the overseas jobs back to the states?




juliaoceania -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 10:18:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

sorry, but there are dems & pubs up there in DC running the house & the senate.  the dems have been dominant the past 2 years.  all those dems got elected in 2006 promising to end the war in iraq and putting the breaks on government speeding.  they did not keep their promise!  i am a registered pub and in 2006 i voted for the dems that made those promises.  they all lie and say anything to get elected.

matter of fact their approval rating is in single digits right now, lower than Bush's approval rating.... HA!......


You are not addressing the question... who pays? And don't we have to raise taxes to pay our bills as a nation?

I could go on and on defending a political party... but that side tracks me from the question I want those of you against a tax increase to answer... who pays?!




juliaoceania -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 10:21:51 PM)

quote:

also more stimulus checks coming!


The immoral part of this is that these sorts resent paying social security because they want that money NOW, screw the contract we have with those who have paid in (even though SS may in fact be the only retirement a lot of those invested in this market have to retire on)

The stimulus package... another example of people not caring that Americans not even born yet will pay for that




Kirata -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 10:28:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

do you think lowering the Corporate Tax as some of the candidates suggest, bring the overseas jobs back to the states?

I don't know, but I doubt it. It's a cost issue, and lower corporate taxes in the US aren't going to bring the cost of living down over here, or at best not enough. You'll still be able to hire comparable talent more cheaply overseas (as long as you keep them over there). In my opinion, the real problem there is our notion of Free Trade. It's far from "free" if it isn't fair. But we would need some kind of tax to offset the cost advantage of hiring cheap foreign labor. And without that cheap labor, Americans would pay higher prices on the end good or service here. So, pick your poison.
 
K.
 
 
 




rulemylife -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 10:28:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

The normal comparisons use statutory tax rates.  Using marginal tax rates is pretending to clarify the issue my muddying it with concepts that have nothing to do with whether you will have more or less money in your hand as the final result.  

Well okay, but Kotlikoff and Rapson use marginal tax rates in their paper, as do other scholarly works I've come across that study systems of taxation, so the approach seem to be accepted as a legitimate metric.
 
If you'd care to explain your point more fully, however, I'm willing to listen.
 
K.
 
 
 


I'm too tired right now to really analyze your link, but at a quick glance it appears to be a flat tax proposal where the marginal tax rate is a valid argument.

BitaTruble made an excellent point why it is not a valid standard to use in comparing tax policy under our current progressive taxation code. 




bestbabync -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 10:29:32 PM)

we cut the the waste!

we can save with a flat tax/fair tax...no need for the IRS

we can save by cutting the money we send overseas to countries that hate us......stop borrowing money and giving it away to our enemies etc!

give businesses a break so they can create more jobs...........no need for welfare and unemployment!

win the damn war........bring our troops home!

this is just the beginning.  if the government spends less and stops waste we can begin paying down the deficit......duh!





bestbabync -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 10:32:14 PM)

oh darn Kirata......i was hoping for light at the end of the tunnel!




SuzanneKneeling -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 10:36:08 PM)

I really love McCain's latest coded ploy to try to make Obama sound "dark and scary", the S-word. Socialist. The truth though is that Obama is proposing a top tax rate for the very rich that is LESS than it was under noted communist sympathisers Ronald Reagan or Dwight Eisenhower.

Yes, in McCain's brave new, desperate and dishonest world, Ronald Reagan and Dwight Eisenhower were "socialists"! Who knew?

Next up, another heaping serving of Reverend Wright, coming to a robocalling bank near you! This man is out of touch, out of ideas, and running out of time. I can't wait for November 5th.




BitaTruble -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 10:39:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

With that extra $10, I can go buy some apples .. or, you know.. oranges. [8D]

Ooooooo... or some shrimp!!
 
But help me out here if I'm being dense. If the marginal tax rate on the second tier in your example goes up, I'll still be paying more taxes. And the more I earn, the more I'll get bitten. If there's some kind of shell game going on here, I guess I'm a rube.

 
Of course, any tax bracket increase is going to raise your taxes but that won't change the margin. You'll still be taxed at the appropriate income for the appropriate bracket and the increased bracket will still cover only the excess $ amount over the preceeding bracket.  There are some things that aren't subject to your tax bracket though and others which the more you earn, the less % you pay, so, sometimes it's a matter of perspective.
 
For example.. the guy earning $50,000 a year pays social security tax on 100% of that income while the guy earning billions might only be paying 1% social security tax on his income.. and no matter what tax bracket you're in, when you go to fill up that gas tank, it's approx 18% federal excise tax across the board. There's also state taxes to consider as well. My dad buys a winter coat in CA for $100 .. he's going to have to pay $108 or so actual dollars for that coat. If I buy that same coat in MN which doesn't tax coats, my cost is $100.

 
quote:

Incidentally, though, my concern is more with corporate than personal taxes. High corporate taxes are a brake on the economy. I sit on the Executive Committee of a financial services corporation (Priest-Kings forgive me) and I see it every day. Giving people a few extra tax-reduction dollars in their pocket isn't going to go far. In the current economy, if corporate taxes don't go down then payroll expenses will have to. We've already started reducing staff at our branch offices, and believe me it's a real heartbreaker.

 
K.
 
 
 
 


How many people could you retain if the top brass in your company took a pay cut? As you said, something's got to go and payroll expenses do apply to both ends of the bell curve. Get rid of the brass bonus plan, have the Top Dogs take a pay cut and maybe you won't have to lay anyone off. Would that work for you guys? I don't know how big you are.. usually the bigger you are, the more leeway you have to play with salaries. I know the last company I worked for had about 30,000 employees.. CEO made in the neighborhood of $125 million a year at the same time they were laying people off. The total salary's they laid off would have been covered if he would just have taken a 5% reduction in salary.





rulemylife -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 10:43:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
 
But help me out here if I'm being dense. If the marginal tax rate on either tier in your example goes up, I'll still be paying more taxes. And if its the second tier, then the more I earn the harder I'll get bitten. If there's some kind of shell game going on here in using marginal tax rates to compare tax systems, I guess I'm a rube.
   


Yes, that's true, if I'm understanding you correctly.

But  under Obama's plan you will not pay more tax until you reach a $250K level, which 95% of taxpayers are below.

What the articles you referenced seem to be doing is playing that shell game.  Trying to convince people they will pay more taxes based on marginal rates without specifically stating at what point those marginal rates start to have an effect.




rulemylife -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 10:57:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

we cut the the waste!

we can save with a flat tax/fair tax...no need for the IRS

we can save by cutting the money we send overseas to countries that hate us......stop borrowing money and giving it away to our enemies etc!

give businesses a break so they can create more jobs...........no need for welfare and unemployment!

win the damn war........bring our troops home!

this is just the beginning.  if the government spends less and stops waste we can begin paying down the deficit......duh!




So, let's recap.

All we have to do is revise the entire federal tax code, stop giving foreign aid, eliminate any tax on business, and win the war in Iraq (I guess when we decide what winning is since I thought we had "mission accomplished" a few years ago).

Well, that seems simple enough.




Kirata -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 11:17:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

How many people could you retain if the top brass in your company took a pay cut? As you said, something's got to go and payroll expenses do apply to both ends of the bell curve. Get rid of the brass bonus plan, have the Top Dogs take a pay cut and maybe you won't have to lay anyone off. Would that work for you guys?

 
That won't work for most companies. I realize that "small business" may seem to be a matter of perspective, but in practice it's damn near everybody except the (relatively) few behemoth corporations. Cutting the salaries of our entire Executive Committee by 20% would save approximately two middle-level jobs. Cutting them by more would cost some of them their homes (unless they sell the kids). No matter what it may look like to those making less, the vast majority of wage-earners are all in pretty much the same boat insofar as their income/expense ratio. You might be surprised at the incomes of some of the people needing credit to meet unanticipated expenses in this economy. In 2006, people whose Adjusted Gross Income was over $32k paid 97% of the income taxes collected in the US (*), and when they're in trouble the country is in trouble.

K.
 
 

 




BitaTruble -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 11:38:59 PM)

Well, we could decriminalize marijuana then slap a hefty federal excise tax on it. That should generate a couple of billion.

Reduce military expenditures by 20 - 30% and make no-bid contracts illegal - that would save us a couple of hundred billion.

Cut silly bacon which would save another couple of billion.

Quit offering free health care and other perks to federal employees .. if we can pay for it, so can they.. that should save several billion.

Impose term limits on all federally elected/selected employees - that will save a couple of billion

Institute an executive line item veto, disallow nepotism in pork, institute one term office for president - that should save us about 250 billion

Cut foreign aid by 70% - that will save several billion

Institute a federal lottery - that will generate revenue and create jobs

Those are off the top of my head but I'm thinking that I just saved the taxpayers about a trillion dollars plus generated revenue and created jobs and I haven't even talked about the war, health care or taxes yet and I have ideas for those, too!

Vote Bita 08'! ::laughs::











bestbabync -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 11:42:20 PM)

great job Bita!!![:D]




bestbabync -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 11:43:44 PM)

rule
she asked a question, so i gave her an answer!




BitaTruble -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/20/2008 11:50:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
That won't work for most companies. I realize that "small business" may seem to be a matter of perspective, but in practice it's damn near everybody except the (relatively) few behemoth corporations. Cutting the salaries of our entire Executive Committee by 20% would save approximately two middle-level jobs. Cutting them by more would cost some of them their homes (unless they sell the kids). No matter what it may look like to those making less, the vast majority of wage-earners are all in pretty much the same boat insofar as their income/expense ratio. You might be surprised at the incomes of some of the people needing credit to meet unanticipated expenses in this economy. In 2006, people whose Adjusted Gross Income was over $32k paid 97% of the income taxes collected in the US (*), and when they're in trouble the country is in trouble.

K.


Okay, my bad. When you said financial services business I wasn't thinking of small business. I am used to dealing in the billions of dollars working for a mega-corp so, let me give this some thought and get back to you. I hate to see people getting laid off .. especially in this economy and especially right before the holidays. Thinking outside the box always came through for me when I ran my business .. so let me see if I can stretch my thinking here. I don't know enough about what's going on financially with your company, but maybe some generic ideas will come to me if I engage my brain when it's not 2 AM.




Kirata -> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency (10/21/2008 12:15:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Thinking outside the box always came through for me when I ran my business ..

Oh we're already way beyond the box. We're transitioning out of financial services altogether. Fuck'em if they think cutting corporate taxes is such a joke. We don't have to be in this business. You want credit, have a nice day.
  
K.
 




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