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smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 9:09:03 PM   
sravaka


Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline 		This post may come off a bit obnoxious, but I'm willing to take some heat for the sake of input. 

A friend has suggested to me that if I am interested in finding a serious D/s relationship I may need to lower my standards in certain areas that I've generally thought of as non-negotiable.  Namely, I've imagined that being with a dominant who is my intellectual equal-or-superior is a need.  Surely a dominant needs to be a step or so ahead of his submissive if it's going to work?  And surely it's reasonable to expect equal & opposite intellectual stimulation from one's partner, whether bdsm-inclined or vanilla?

But now I'm thinking harder about it, and about the enormous number of things that can balance out to intellectual parity.... and I'm curious about others' experiences and/or thoughts about this specifically in the D/s context.

Obviously, there are many kinds of intelligence.  I have been fortunate enough to have been in a position to acquire a rather excessive education, but I don't flatter myself that that automatically makes me "smarter" than others who have not had such opportunities (though I do flatter myself that I am "smart" generally-- quick to make connections, able to retain things, that sort of thing.  Of course, I also have lapses).  At the same time the whole education thing does insert me for many purposes in a cultural milieu that others are not always sympathetic to, but that, for good or ill, is part of my world for the present.

But there are other things too.  Some I've been looking for all along.  Relationship intelligence, sexual intelligence-- here I'm easily equalled if not exceeded.  Psychological acuity-- little to do with book smarts, generally.   Life experience, whether practical or personal or random-- necessary in addition to book smarts, and often even more important.  Intellectual openness, curiosity, engagement-- these probably remain non-negotiable.  Intellectual ambition-- maybe he doesn't need it for himself, but I think he needs to understand and support mine (still debating on that one).  Values-related intellect-- ability to justify religious, political, ethical beliefs in some sort of rational manner.  And so on.   My theory is that adding things like these to the equation can add up to intellectual parity or superiority, even if education, raw intelligence, etc., remain somehow unequal.   

So I wonder...  how does this look to others? 
Submissives--  could you submit to someone who is not your intellectual equal-or-superior?   And how do you define it?  What components matter to you, and how do you deal with the ones where you are ahead of the game?
Dominants--  I know many of you are looking for or with women who are close to you intellectually, but could you deal with a gap which left her in various respects ahead of you? and if so, in what respects?  Where are the limits of what you'd find plausible?

(Or other thoughts/formulations.)

Grateful for any/all replies.





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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 9:27:37 PM   
theobserver


Posts: 456
Joined: 8/18/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

This post may come off a bit obnoxious, but I'm willing to take some heat for the sake of input. 

A friend has suggested to me that if I am interested in finding a serious D/s relationship I may need to lower my standards in certain areas that I've generally thought of as non-negotiable.  Namely, I've imagined that being with a dominant who is my intellectual equal-or-superior is a need.  Surely a dominant needs to be a step or so ahead of his submissive if it's going to work?  And surely it's reasonable to expect equal & opposite intellectual stimulation from one's partner, whether bdsm-inclined or vanilla?

But now I'm thinking harder about it, and about the enormous number of things that can balance out to intellectual parity.... and I'm curious about others' experiences and/or thoughts about this specifically in the D/s context.

Obviously, there are many kinds of intelligence.  I have been fortunate enough to have been in a position to acquire a rather excessive education, but I don't flatter myself that that automatically makes me "smarter" than others who have not had such opportunities (though I do flatter myself that I am "smart" generally-- quick to make connections, able to retain things, that sort of thing.  Of course, I also have lapses).  At the same time the whole education thing does insert me for many purposes in a cultural milieu that others are not always sympathetic to, but that, for good or ill, is part of my world for the present.

But there are other things too.  Some I've been looking for all along.  Relationship intelligence, sexual intelligence-- here I'm easily equalled if not exceeded.  Psychological acuity-- little to do with book smarts, generally.   Life experience, whether practical or personal or random-- necessary in addition to book smarts, and often even more important.  Intellectual openness, curiosity, engagement-- these probably remain non-negotiable.  Intellectual ambition-- maybe he doesn't need it for himself, but I think he needs to understand and support mine (still debating on that one).  Values-related intellect-- ability to justify religious, political, ethical beliefs in some sort of rational manner.  And so on.   My theory is that adding things like these to the equation can add up to intellectual parity or superiority, even if education, raw intelligence, etc., remain somehow unequal.   

So I wonder...  how does this look to others? 
Submissives--  could you submit to someone who is not your intellectual equal-or-superior?   And how do you define it?  What components matter to you, and how do you deal with the ones where you are ahead of the game?
Dominants--  I know many of you are looking for or with women who are close to you intellectually, but could you deal with a gap which left her in various respects ahead of you? and if so, in what respects?  Where are the limits of what you'd find plausible?

(Or other thoughts/formulations.)

Grateful for any/all replies.






This is an interesting question, but absolutely the wrong time for me to attempt to, thoughtfully, answer it.

However ...

I'll make the attempt.

I find intelligence very attractive in any individual. If they can balance their intelligence with wit - even better.

If I were looking for a companion, whether it be in this lifestyle or a Vanilla relationship, I would highly value a man in which I can learn from (a teacher so to speak); whether it be book smarts, life experience or something deeper like spirituality.

I must say, that I find the quirky artistic genius to be the most fascinating and I would imagine, the most creative. If I were a submissive and I could pick the traits for my perfect Dom ... he would be that.

I think, for me, the person has to have a certain level of inquisitiveness. I would not want to be with a scientist that's cold and spouts information all day, but I would also not want to be with someone whose idea of reading was thumbing through Sports Illustrated or the current issue of Truckin.

I'm not college educated, but I do seek out knowledge and information on my own and I expect nothing less from someone I was romantically involved with. I'm curious about the world and I would need someone who was that way too. I need a Dom who could teach me, not one that needs to be taught.

So I guess, in my exhausted state, I took the long route to answering your question.

If I sought a relationship with a Dom he would have to be intelligent ... and I would highly prefer moreso than I.




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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 9:38:28 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Hi, sravaka----
Hope you're doing well.  Long time, no talk; feel free to cm me, if you'd like.  To answer your queries:

So I wonder...  how does this look to others? 
**Looks reasonable to me.  I do not advocate 'settling'. 

Submissives--  could you submit to someone who is not your intellectual equal-or-superior?   And how do you define it?  What components matter to you, and how do you deal with the ones where you are ahead of the game?
**No, I would not.  Overall intelligence is important to me; if I can't hold a conversation with the person where we aren't on relatively similar footing, it's not going to work.  This isn't just about book smarts, as you pointed out.  Other things that factor in include (In no particular order and, by no means exhaustive): wisdom, humor, pragmatism, safety, security, consistency, creativity, functionality, etc.   
Dominants--  I know many of you are looking for or with women who are close to you intellectually, but could you deal with a gap which left her in various respects ahead of you? and if so, in what respects?  Where are the limits of what you'd find plausible?
**As someone who identifies as a switch, I'm going to have a go at this one too:  much the same requirements as above but in a male partner preferrably, though I would be open to Dominating a female, just not as a primary relationship, thus, if I were in a primary relationship with a Dominant and also had a sub, I'd think I'd require less from the sub than I would a Dominant as that relationship would take precedence in meeting my needs while I would need to be cognizant of tending to the sub to see that their needs as well as my needs were met there too. 
I should also disclaim this with the fact that I am considering these factors within partnered/significant relationships.   
  Davan

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 9:42:20 PM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		Having a less than intelligent brute is ok for a one night stand or even for a booty call or two (or 7)..

Yanno, the kind you have come over after midnight, when the porch lights are off and none of your friends or co-workers know about. The kind a friend might see you in a mall with and you claim it is a distant cousin.

That type is not a keeper though.   Sure he can think he (be given the impression) is of dominant quality for a few hours, but no, he cannot suffice or compare to a man with true brilliance of mind and psychological ability to form and manipulate by more than his forearm.




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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 9:44:26 PM   
SingleRarity


Posts: 320
Joined: 9/13/2006
Status: offline 		Even before I entered the world of BDsM, I was very choosy in my pursuit of partners. Male friends would half joke, calling me "The Ice Queen".  I was a bit of bitch perhaps, but I've never been one to compromise.  As I began my journey into kink, I knew that I could only partake in our activities, if they were within the confines of a long term relationship.  I would not compromise on what I wanted, and that, was an attractive, educated, and (of course) dominant man.  I found him rather quickly, but I concede that it was pure luck, and not the norm for most. 

I see no need to compromise on your standards.

Daddy's Ballerina, e

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 9:45:38 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Oh that old chestnut about intelligence and education, two very highly overrated concepts.  My ex grew up in a world of ivory towers, the middle of Berkeley with a mother who is a well known and published poet and a father who was at the top of his field as well, with family of name and note all around.  I could go on but I don't wish to out her.

Prior to meeting her I always tended to feel more educated/worldly/well read than most of my peers.  I used to joke that I felt like a kid from the provinces around them.  However, they all adored me because I brought fresh perspectives, a keen insight, and a life very well and colorfully lived.  Not bad for a kid who dropped out of high school.  I even got approval from one of the aunts who tended to look down her nose at most people.

University educations do not make people interesting, enjoyable, or sadly, even literate.  Most of it is glorified vocational education.  I say that while attending one of California's better universities.  Intelligence, or at least IQ is similarly overrated and mine falls in the top 98%.  My ex, who is far smarter and vastly better educated and bred adored me because I made her feel safe, I made her feel desired, and we could talk about any subject except music.  Even art was something we could talk about despite my relative ignorance and the fact she had made a living as an artist.

I think more importantly than any of this is what you seek in a mate.  If you want to come home and discuss French literature or the latest in genetic advances over dinner, you better pick an academic or a scientist.  If you want to find someone which whom you can enjoy life outside of a single subject, there are far more important things to select for than intelligence.

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 9:46:22 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I believe people need to be evenly matched in intelligence and humor, besides the other important things.  If one isn't able to keep up with you, you can become bored and worse... at some point get impatient with them for not keeping up or being able to understand.  At least I do!  I love word play and if I have to explain what I am saying all the time, it ruins the fun.

Never settle... it isn't worth it.

I don't think it is a matter of education even.  Just smarts... however smarts comes about.  I would think it really hard to submit to someone dull witted when one was not dull witted.  At some point I would think it would be a problem.  Good luck to you!

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 9:52:04 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
Status: offline 		Having a sub who can keep up with me on an intellectual level is definitely a need for me.  Apparently, this is more difficult than it sounds.  (I so do not care what Paris Hilton is wearing or who made it to the finals on American Idol.)  However, I managed to find my girl.  It can be done.  I encourage you not to lower your standards in that area.  However, in order to have that need met, you might have to be more flexible in other areas such as age, appearance, or distance from you.

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 9:54:49 PM   
moonvine


Posts: 780
Joined: 11/7/2004
Status: offline 		Well....I'm in Mensa...(this is not an effort to brag, just stating a fact, to make a point).  And the last time I was at a munch I looked around and said "Good grief, I could be at a Mensa convention."  There's a great deal of overlap between the two crowds and you can usually find a kinky gathering or two at the Mensa annual gathering.  So I'm not sure you in fact need to lower your smartness standards.   What I've noticed is that raw IQ seems to have a tendency to have an inverse correlation to social skills and relationship skills.  

I have an excessive education too, which just means that I have a staggering student loan debt and I have to lie on my resume if I want to work as a night desk clerk at the Quality Inn.

I have a friend who I'm not sure ever graduated high school, but she's a gifted writer.  I keep telling her she should write a book.  She doesn't listen - argh!

I'm fascinated by people who can read people - size them up in a split second - and I tend to think they would make much better Dominants than those with a lot of excess brain cells.  Someone who can really get into my head would make a great Dominant for me, I think.  That can also be really dangerous for me (remember the last one - ack!) , so I have to be careful. 

I've always been more attracted to men who can do something useful, like fix something, and like to do stereotypical man things like watch football (or better yet, play!)- which means these are never the men who are attracted to me - I get all the beard-wearing, coffeehouse-attending, bad-poetry-writing ones. 

 

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 9:55:56 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka
Surely a dominant needs to be a step or so ahead of his submissive if it's going to work? 

If that's what you believe, yes.

But are you really wanting to take that to its logical conclusion?  Do you want to know that in everything you do, say, and think, that you are never as good or better than your master at it and he just lets you do them because he's busy doing other things?  That you can never add anything new to his life because he's already ahead of you?

quote:

 And surely it's reasonable to expect equal & opposite intellectual stimulation from one's partner, whether bdsm-inclined or vanilla?

It's reasonable to expect a person to be true to themselves.  If you choose a partner who is stupid, then it would be unreasonable to expect them not to be stupid.

It is unreasonable for my partner to expect me to love to drive.  It is reasonable for him to expect me to know a lot about philosophy.

quote:

Submissives--  could you submit to someone who is not your intellectual equal-or-superior?

In general terms, no.  When talking specifics, sure.

quote:

   And how do you define it?  What components matter to you, and how do you deal with the ones where you are ahead of the game?

I don't get involved with them.
quote:


Dominants--  I know many of you are looking for or with women who are close to you intellectually, but could you deal with a gap which left her in various respects ahead of you? and if so, in what respects?  Where are the limits of what you'd find plausible?

Isn't it their job to make my life easier and better?  Why wouldn't I use their superior skills and abilities to my advantage?

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 10:09:52 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

So I wonder...  how does this look to others? 
Submissives--  could you submit to someone who is not your intellectual equal-or-superior?   And how do you define it?  What components matter to you, and how do you deal with the ones where you are ahead of the game?


I don't particularly think about it and set out to measure and compare my intelligence vs. theirs. If I find myself having to explain everything regarding my mental interests or views then I'm bored with our conversation and move on. I've yet to encounter a romantic situation where the other person was having to explain everything to me - though I have encountered situations where they were deeply into physics and I was sitting there going "Couldn't care less".

I know that according to some lovely bits of paper I'm "gifted and talented". Other than helping me get into college upon a time, I don't really think about it. Either we have things to talk about or we don't.
quote:



Dominants--  I know many of you are looking for or with women who are close to you intellectually, but could you deal with a gap which left her in various respects ahead of you? and if so, in what respects?  Where are the limits of what you'd find plausible?


Val and I have talked the fact that I might be smarter than him. I've had a few educational opportunities that he hasn't and I have a far greater love of history than him so I am better educated on it. He really doesn't care nor does it seem to affect us. We challenge each other and bring different experiences and knowledge to the table.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 11/6/2008 10:10:17 PM >

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 10:11:13 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka



Submissives--  could you submit to someone who is not your intellectual equal-or-superior?   And how do you define it?  What components matter to you, and how do you deal with the ones where you are ahead of the game?




As you said there are different kinds of "smart".  I definitely need to be with a dominant who is smarter than I am. 

I consider myself to be a smart person, intuitive and very perceptive, however, I'm not an intellect, yet I prefer to be with someone who is intelligent and/or educated. Knowledgeable, "brainy" men are a huge turn on to me.  

I won't rule someone out who isn't college-educated, but I will rule someone out who is dull, or not articulate, or someone who can't teach, enlighten or "educate" me on some levels. 

There are certain things I can't compromise on; if I don't sense that a man is intelligent, there's no way I'm ever going to feel submissive to him.

On edit I wanted to add that a philosophical mind is a very big draw for me as well.  I think being able to have conversations of depth breeds a feeling of intimacy.

< Message edited by marie2 -- 11/6/2008 10:37:04 PM >

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 10:24:04 PM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

University educations do not make people interesting, enjoyable, or sadly, even literate.  I think more importantly than any of this is what you seek in a mate.  If you want to come home and discuss French literature or the latest in genetic advances over dinner, you better pick an academic or a scientist.  If you want to find someone which whom you can enjoy life outside of a single subject, there are far more important things to select for than intelligence.


Michael,
I got something entirely different out of the OP's post and her profile...She very much reminds me of myself and it seems to me she is looking for "that guy"..
What do you think?


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Intelligence, or at least IQ is similarly overrated and mine falls in the top 98%.


"Candidates for membership in Mensa must achieve a score at or above the 98th percentile on a standard test of intelligence (a score that is greater than or equal to that achieved by 98 percent of the general population taking the test). " -www.mensa.org


*boy, did it all of a sudden get really warm in here?*   Umm.. Is there something about you I don't know?       

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 10:25:30 PM   
Alighierisquest


Posts: 58
Joined: 6/16/2007
Status: offline 		Intellects need to be close together for anytime of long term partnership, unless you plan on ever telling your sub a complex order or talking to them at all.  Which isn't an option at all really.  Of course your compromising even when you don't think you are with intellect because it's so fuzzy.  A smart person can know a lot, be competent at his profession when that profession is complicated, be artistic, be creative without artistic outlets, be an excellent student of life, or even posses great amount everyday wisdom.  In truth we all posses some of these qualities in different amounts.

That said I couldn't partner with anyone who wasn't at least receptive to learning and bettering their mind.  A person with a limited view of the world and limited information is likely to have simplistic views.  Which in an of itself isn't a bad thing, you have to have simplified views of complex subjects to begin grasp them and evolve your view as you learn more.  This is the basis of an analogy.

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 10:39:30 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		I can't imagine that I'd follow the advice of anyone who told me to lower my standards, nor would I advise that of another.

I do value intelligence, even though I certainly have my airhead moments...heh. That said, if he were of higher intelligence than me in all things, I would wonder what I was contributing to our conversations that had any meaningful relevance to him. Still, I do prefer to be with someone of equal or higher smarts, and with "worldly" life experience. This could be someone who is college educated or not; I have known wonderful people in both camps. If I were smarter than him in most things, it is doubtful I could submit to him.

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 10:40:01 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch


Michael,
I got something entirely different out of the OP's post and her profile...She very much reminds me of myself and it seems to me she is looking for "that guy"..
What do you think?



I think she is looking for "that guy" but "this guy" is taken, LOL!

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 10:43:43 PM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline 		I love your guts...

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A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 10:45:08 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Its only taken almost two years for me to understand the truth in that so not sure how bright I really am...

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 10:49:02 PM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline 		Dense and bright are two entirely different things my love!

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

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RE: smarts and domliness/subliness - 11/6/2008 10:52:26 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		And what a most eloquent explanation of intelligence and its various incarnations in a relationship, very impressive woman.

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