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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 10:16:49 AM   
eri


Posts: 77
Joined: 11/3/2008
Status: offline 		You left out half of what I said. If I had only written what you quoted, no it would not be contradictory at all ...

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 10:19:22 AM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

But as it turns out, embodying those qualities is not enough, though what *is* enough remains unspoken.


agree with that. It are the groups of people that decide if you are Gorean or not.
You can be seen as gorean on one forum and others, on an other forum... will say..you are not.
But I guess that is similar to beeing "fake" or a "real"  D or s.

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 10:28:27 AM   
eri


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Joined: 11/3/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

agree with that. It are the groups of people that decide if you are Gorean or not.
You can be seen as gorean on one forum and others, on an other forum... will say..you are not.
But I guess that is similar to beeing "fake" or a "real"  D or s.


Exactly.


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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 10:29:50 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Your implication is you have not done your homework of Gor, therefore, to me you have no clue what Gorean is with regard to what you state you adhere too. 


First, the implication is yours.  Not mine.  As has been said several times here in this thread, *being* Gorean is about family, loyalty, ethics, morality, etc.  And just like those folks who *were* Gorean before the books came out, I don't need to read them in order to appreciate what those concepts mean and to incorporate them into my life. 

quote:


Until you do based on what you learn from the books -- it may be the same, it may be different --  you cannot be Gorean simply because you have no clue WHAT IT IS!!  


Now wait a minute.  Is it honor, loyalty, ethics, morality, home, etc. or is it not?  For all the talk about *being* Gorean means accepting those principles, and no one else can judge you as not *being* Gorean, you seem to be doing a good job of telling me I can't.  It seems I haven't lived up to YOUR standards of what it means to be Gorean.  What happened to the individuality? 
 
To say nothing of the statement that the books did not *make* anyone Gorean... they just expressed the principles already inherent to Goreans.  So the books aren't necessary to *be* Gorean.  There's no reason to study them if they simply mirror what is inherent to me (or you) already.
 
Please, for the sake of this thread... list the standards for *being* Gorean.  Because it has become painfully obvious that the principles that were espoused earlier are just not enough in your view. 

quote:


If you have done your homework, then your statements are redundant as i stated earlier if you do your homework and figure out you do understand it based on your own personal interpretation and not what others tell you and you choose to accept the identity, then i said maybe.  I said maybe because if you do your homework only YOU can decipher if you adhere to what the identity is. 


I have done enough homework to satisfy myself.  Do I need to do enough homework to satisfy you??? 

quote:


So quit putting words in my mouth because if you really adhere to the intergrity you claim, you would know that your manipulation of choosing words out of full sentences and thoughts to create some affront that never was there but the whole of what i stated never even says anything to you personally but instead leaves open a choice for you, shows me you really need to do some more homework with regard what it means to be Gorean.


And making false claims against another cannot be very ethical or honorable.  Unless you are prepared to show where I falsely attributed anything to you, then I suggest you not make an accusation that reflects poorly upon you, and your principles.
 
John

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 10:32:03 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
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Status: offline 		BDSM -can- employ gender-based dominance. Proof of that exists in the realization that, in fact, in general, the only place to find a singularly -dominant- woman, who embraces female supremacism in much the same way that Gor embraces male supremacism is within the FemDom community in BDSM (though not all femdoms are female supremacists).

Strict adherents to Gor -may- scene... they just don't call it 'scening'... they call it 'using a girl' or 'exploiting a slave's heat', or 'entertaining the Master' or 'punishing a slave'... in the end, though, it all boils down to just about the same stuff that people who -aren't- in Gor but who are kinky do for fun. The big tenet that people pull out to show that Goreans don't scene has nothing to do with scening at -all-, and that's the idea that Goreans don't mistreat or abuse their slaves--which is actually also a tenet of BDSM, and in both cases, it is subject to the honor of the practitioner to live up to that, regardless of whether one calls oneself Gorean or not. The Bladewing, the first 'keeper' of the House I joined on with was trained up in a Gorean community, and got his immersion through a group that lived it offline, out in southern Oregon. The difference, I think, is that Gor isn't -about- the scening or lack of it, it's really focused on the day-to-day life stuff and on the particular Gorean philosophies of being true to oneself, and to one's responsibilities and commitments, at least philosophically. BDSM, on the other hand, covers the spectrum from "all about daily life and service" to "all about fetish play and scening".

The biggest separation between "Gor" and "Not Gor", in my experience, comes out of whether or not it is possible to cull the philosophies from a series of fiction books and the ideas they contain, and build a viable existence in the concrete world using that information. Many people who would otherwise not have a problem with much of what the Goreans do get hung up on that little piece... that the culture of Gor came from John Norman's mind, and was expressed in a series of fiction books. The reality is that it doesn't matter -where- one's life philosophy comes from. There are other books, widely ascribed as perfectly acceptable tools for shaping one's life philosophies from that are no more 'provable' than Gor, despite their history, but because John Norman called his works 'fiction', there is a sense of disparagement of those who would take the philosophies and attempt to shape a way of life around them.

As for our alignment... since The Bladewing's death, and the shift in the household to primarily female dominant members, we don't ascribe to calling ourselves Goreans any more (though my Darling's proclivities certainly extend predominantly in that direction). A major portion of the philosophies of John Norman, as he recorded them in the Gorean novels, revolves around male supremacy. As an author myself, I find it rude to take an author's work and twist it around to suit oneself, especially when doing so strays far from the original intent of the author. Because of that, though both my Darling and I think that there are some worthwhile philosophies within the text, and despite being inclined towards the complete-servitude model of dominance and submission mirrored in the books, our existence as a home with no male head flies in the face of the foundations of Gor as shaped by John Norman, and so we do not ascribe to calling ourselves 'Gorean'.

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 11/7/2008 10:33:45 AM >

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 10:41:11 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Whatever John, as i said, you keep putting a spin on my words that isn't there so maybe i should just say it so you can be justified lol.

John, you can't be Gorean.  There are you happy now?  I could honestly CARE LESS what you claim to be, you are the one who keeps saying i am telling you that you can't be.  So the issue is not mine, you are the one whining about how mean angel told you you can't be Gorean lol. 

Okay let me see if i can put these in simple words for you:

1.  If you aren't willing to do your homework, you CAN'T BE GOREAN.

2.  If you are willing to put the homework in, maybe you CAN BE GOREAN.
             What that maybe depends on is what you decipher from your homework.

I have never put a value on the amount of homework or anything, i have not put any concept of what the homework is other than what it MEANS to you.  If your integrity allows you to say you know everything about Gor because you have read and studied the books beyond the plot and actions of the warriors and slaves, to make an INFORMED decision as to your definitions of all those topics you have named and when held together as a whole by you they reflect what you seriously believe being Gorean is -- then its up to you to choose if you want to identify as Gorean.  The point is informed decision and only a fool would make an informed decision with half or cliff notes of the information.  So to me, that is what homework is, doing enough where you have all the information to make an informed decision. You don't like my definition of homework, so be it, i personally don't care, but you may if i say well John, i don't agree you have enough information to be Gorean.  You'll throw a fit at my words or shrug as say and you are important, why, or you just won't give a damn enough to respond lol its really that simple.  If you seriously need my acceptance, then to me, you have missed the point of being Gorean.

If you do identify because based on your informed decsision it benefits you in some way that you feel its important to you to identify as same, then yes, your beliefs if you intend to be around other Goreans will probably be discussed and people will determine whether you are flying out your ass on cliffnotes, or whether your understanding is similar to theirs or whether your understanding is something they may have missed or need to consider because it makes sense to the whole of being Gorean.

Some will agree you are Gorean, some will not, in the end if you really give a damn, then you still don't get it.

If you go back and read what i said, that is what i have stated all along.  The concept of homework is vague in all of my statements.  YOU have put a value on it that i never have nor will i.    I have as an individual a personal opinion of what i see as Gorean, with me you either will fit it or not.  If you care enough to change your mind about what is Gorean to you and the identity of being Gorean, you won't gain my respect.  If you stand by what you believe, i may not agree with you, but part of being Gorean is maintaining the integrity of your personal decision based on your informed decision.

So quit whining about how i am telling you that you can't BE Gorean, if you go back and read what i said THE WHOLE OF IT, instead of focusing on the last part of the sentence, you will see i never have stated anything of the sort.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 11/7/2008 10:46:38 AM >

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 10:44:17 AM   
Sundowner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

... people in BDSM swear blind that they are all totoally differant, when fundementall they arent really.

Ok im expecting to be shouted at now. Oh well.


Hi beautiful <waves at coloured>

I've not read the thread, so coming in late, but are you really saying people in BDSM are in essence not different?

Sheesh girl - take you and me for starters; we get on fine but we have very very different views on what bdsm is. (And I say that in the context of what I believe you're getting at; and I say it without shouting ). I'll try to make time to come back and develop that into something more helpful than simple disagreement, but just wanted to say hi.


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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 10:46:37 AM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		Can I ask if I have you right Barely, that to be Gorean you have to understand how it relates to you and therefore then choose to apply the label to you? if so isnt that true of every label that you apply to yourself?

Edited to add to SD

Yes i do think that our opinions are differant, and nope doesnt mean i love you any less you teddy bear you, however I think that a lot of the opinions that we differ in are largely based on semantics. It tends to normally boil down to terminology and the application thereof.


< Message edited by colouredin -- 11/7/2008 10:49:09 AM >

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 10:49:59 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

Firestorm Said:
The biggest separation between "Gor" and "Not Gor", in my experience, comes out of whether or not it is possible to cull the philosophies from a series of fiction books and the ideas they contain, and build a viable existence in the concrete world using that information. Many people who would otherwise not have a problem with much of what the Goreans do get hung up on that little piece... that the culture of Gor came from John Norman's mind, and was expressed in a series of fiction books. The reality is that it doesn't matter -where- one's life philosophy comes from.

THANK YOU for saying that.  Oft-times when I see people get tripped up on this particular bit, I scratch my head.  Jules Vernes was the first to document, in detail, something that we would recognize as a modern submarine.... that doesn't seem to stop a whole fleet of submarines from sailing the world's oceans in a very realistic way.

And with that, in one post, I have both sided with the goreans and with you Firestorm :)  Surely it's getting nippy in hell this morning.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 11:00:09 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Okay let me see if i can put these in simple words for you:

1.  If you aren't willing to do your homework, you CAN'T BE GOREAN.


Ummmmm... okayyyyyyyy.... first, please explain to me how this isn't telling me that I can't be Gorean (at least not until I satisfy your standard of study).  Second, what *is* the homework?  Reading some books?  Or is it something else.  C'mon, angel.  Spit it out.  And third, please reconcile this statement with your refusal to accept my claim that I *am* Gorean.  It seems plain as day to me, but then, I may be missing something.

quote:


2.  If you are willing to put the homework in, maybe you CAN BE GOREAN.
           What that maybe depends on is what you decipher from your homework.


Gee, that is very benevolent of you.... allowing me a path to *be* Gorean.  Ok, you've set forth new standards here.  All that talk about morality, loyalty, home, honor, etc. as that which *makes* one Gorean was... well.... let's say that it was not full disclosure. 
 
Now, what is it that one must decipher in order to achieve a standard by which they *are* Gorean?

quote:


I have never put a value on the amount of homework or anything, i have not put any concept of what the homework is other than what it MEANS to you. 


And to me it means nothing.  I am already satisfied with my understanding and incorporation of principles such as honor, integrity, home, ethics, morality, etc.  But evidently that is not enough, because you refuse to accept what it means to me and demand that I achieve a standard that suits you.  All the while not sharing what that standard *is*. 

quote:


If your integrity allows you to say you know everything about Gor...


Sorry to dice up your sentences, but you must be out of periods and commas.
 
Does anyone's integrity allow them to say that they know everything about Gor?  And is that the standard by which one is judged to *be* Gorean?

quote:


... because you have read and studied the books beyond the plot and actions of the warriors and slaves, to make an INFORMED decision as to your definitions of all those topics you have named and when held together as a whole by you they reflect what you seriously believe being Gorean is


I am quite satisfied that I am informed about integrity, home, loyalty, ethics, morals and quite a bit more. 

quote:


-- then its up to you to choose if you want to identify as Gorean. 


And I've chosen.  Why does that bother you so?

quote:


If you do, then yes, your beliefs if you intend to be around other Goreans will probably be discussed and people will determine whether you are flying out your ass on cliffnotes, or whether your understanding is similar to theirs or whether your understanding is something they may have missed or need to consider because it makes sense to the whole of being Gorean.


First of all, what happened to the individuality you said was inherent to Gor?  This sounds awfully rigid doctrine that's quite exclusionary.

quote:


Some will agree you are Gorean, some will not, in the end if you really give a damn, then you still don't get it.


Well, then I must "get" it, because I already don't give a damn.  I'm my own man.

quote:


If you go back and read what i said, that is what i have stated all along.  The concept of homework is vague in all of my statements.  YOU have put a value on it that i never have nor will i.   


I strongly disagree.  It's you that has determined that my homework is insufficient.  And in order to do so, you have to put a value on it, and to compare it to some unspoken standard.

quote:


I have as an individual a personal opinion of what i see as Gorean, with me you either will fit it or not.  If you care enough to change your mind about what is Gorean to you and the identity of being Gorean, you won't gain my respect.  If you stand by what you believe, i may not agree with you, but part of being Gorean is maintaining the integrity of your personal decision based on your informed decision.


Well, at least on that standard I *am* Gorean.

quote:


So quit whining about how i am telling you that you can't BE Gorean, if you go back and read what i said THE WHOLE OF IT, instead of focusing on the last part of the sentence, you will see i never have stated anything of the sort.


Seriously, I don't recall that I've been whining at all.  Simply engaging you in discussion and asking you questions.  And if you'd like, I can copy and paste each time you said I can't *be* Gorean.  Perhaps they slipped your mind.
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 11/7/2008 11:04:49 AM >

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 11:17:00 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
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Status: offline 		Whilst having a private conversation with someone about this thread i have had a few thoughts. Here they are :-
 
The Gor books.
At lot seems to rest on the fact that Goreans follow a set of philosophies from a set of sci fi books. Are we BDSMers really any different? Most have read and probably follow some of the philosophy in books such as 'screw the roses, bdsm 101, the loving dominant' etc etc.
 
Arrogance and beating of chests.
Many i have spoken to claim Goreans can (not always) come across as arrogant and chest beating. I agree but can't we all?
 
Find your own answer.
The claim is made that when posting in the Gor board many people are told to research their question, find the answer themselves. Do we on the general board not follow that philosophy ourselves sometimes with our lists of previous topics on the thread.
 
Being different and misunderstood.
I think because Goreans are different they get misunderstood. But saying that aren't we all different, don't we all get misunderstood from time to time especially here on the boards.
 
Judgement.
There are those who are very judgemental of the goreans here definately. But arent we all judgemental of each other sometimes?

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 11:18:10 AM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

Most have read and probably follow some of the philosophy in books such as 'screw the roses, bdsm 101, the loving dominant' etc etc.


 first time I ever hear of them

quote:

  come across as arrogant and chest beating. I agree but can't we all?

yes we can. But do we do it for a reason..or because it has to be because of books?
( i know this sound shitty...but can't find the right english words)

quote:

  when posting in the Gor board many people are told to research their question, find the answer themselves
we do indeed say...use the search. We don't say they are fake though

quote:

  I think because Goreans are different they get misunderstood

quote:

But arent we all judgemental of each other sometimes?

I think it is a 2 way street...sadly.

good points ...

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 11/7/2008 11:22:31 AM >

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 11:23:57 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

Barely said:  So quit whining about how i am telling you that you can't BE Gorean, if you go back and read what i said THE WHOLE OF IT, instead of focusing on the last part of the sentence, you will see i never have stated anything of the sort.

I agree.  I didn't think it was that opaque either what you were trying to say, but then again, I was actually trying to understand it rather than debate with you.  I would generally agree that having all the characteristics of the gorean philosophy isn't really enough.  I mean, really, if that was all that was required, then pretty much ANY person who thought of themselves in a postive light would be gorean.  Seriously, what well adjusted person does not see themselves as having honor and integrity, as having a clear sense of self and how self relates to the world at large, etc. etc?

Similarly, to use John's example, I might be a very very skilled accountant with deep knowledge and experience doing business bookkeeping.  But if I do not actually do accounting and I don't apply the label "accountant" to myself,  then I don't think most of my friends would think of me as an accountant.  They'd think of me as whatever I did identify with and actually do.  Similarly, while I also empathize with a great many of the philosophy points laid out in the discussions I've seen, I do not resonate with gor.  Who knows why?  All I know is every time I read a few pages in any of the books, the hackles on the back of my neck stand up (like just last night for instance).  I have to assume that for other people, the reverse reaction happens and they read the books and it "feels like home".  Whatever it is that makes that happen, that also is an important part of "being gorean" (or being anything else)  if you ask me -- not sufficient in and of itself, but an important part.


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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 11:33:15 AM   
Sundowner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

 Are we BDSMers really any different? Most have read and probably follow some of the philosophy in books such as 'screw the roses, bdsm 101, the loving dominant' etc etc. 
 




Aaaaarrgh misst!

I've no time to develop the argument with you this evening but I so disagree.

Like darkness, I've never heard of them and - I suspect like darkness and many others - I don't live my life by following book philosophy. Sheesh - my life is mine, mistakes, successes, triumphs and failures, wisdom and stupidity; it's all there and, whilst I've learnt from others (consciously and unconsciously) my philosophy is not down to following guidance from a book.

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 11:38:18 AM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		I dont think they come from a book, but our opinions are not our own they are developed by the world around us, i know that my opinions have changed since using this forum, i think that i have become more able to state my point of view more levelly and i have i hope become more open minded due to reading peoples opinions on here, so i do think our guidlines for life are affected by others even if not specifically put into words.

However even the people who are posting on here say that they dont 'follow' the books in a strict doctrine kind of way

< Message edited by colouredin -- 11/7/2008 11:40:57 AM >

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 11:40:04 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sundowner

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

 Are we BDSMers really any different? Most have read and probably follow some of the philosophy in books such as 'screw the roses, bdsm 101, the loving dominant' etc etc. 
 




Aaaaarrgh misst!

I've no time to develop the argument with you this evening but I so disagree.

Like darkness, I've never heard of them and - I suspect like darkness and many others - I don't live my life by following book philosophy. Sheesh - my life is mine, mistakes, successes, triumphs and failures, wisdom and stupidity; it's all there and, whilst I've learnt from others (consciously and unconsciously) my philosophy is not down to following guidance from a book.


Please note my use of 'most' not ALL.
Feel free to disagree with me on a personal level by all means.
Perhaps we don't all get our philosophy from books but we get it from somewhere. There is always something that influences us. That is more my point than anything.

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 11:41:16 AM   
barelynangel


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Status: offline 		I am no longer going to participate in this thread as it is like hitting my head against the wall lol and i have enough headaches in my life, but i would like to say one thing -- i sign my posts angel, my nickname is barelynangel.  I have never called myself barely.  Therefore, please do not butcher my name.  Thank you.

angel

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 11:48:25 AM   
lusciouslips19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I am no longer going to participate in this thread as it is like hitting my head against the wall lol and i have enough headaches in my life, but i would like to say one thing -- i sign my posts angel, my nickname is barelynangel.  I have never called myself barely.  Therefore, please do not butcher my name.  Thank you.

angel


I just dont get why you have to come across as so arrogant and with a bad attitude. Am I reading you wrong? Why such a chip on your shoulders, who made you the authority on everything and who pissed in your wheaties?

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 11:58:30 AM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin
However even the people who are posting on here say that they dont 'follow' the books in a strict doctrine kind of way


but..what causes this conflict then...
I know it is not the books that cause it..... 

(in reply to colouredin)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 12:29:41 PM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I am no longer going to participate in this thread as it is like hitting my head against the wall lol and i have enough headaches in my life, but i would like to say one thing -- i sign my posts angel, my nickname is barelynangel.  I have never called myself barely.  Therefore, please do not butcher my name.  Thank you.

angel


I am curious. What type of Gor identity do you see yourself as? Free, slave or other?

C-D

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 140
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