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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:12:50 AM

theobserver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Any philosophy that espouses a "natural order" that is applied to all of mankind (as opposed to individual relationships) has an inherent sense of superiority. That's unavoidable and self-evident, for gender superiority or Gor or anything that professes the same.

John

This really made me think. What immediately popped into my head was The Great Chain of Being:

A Western medieval conception of the order of the universe, whose chief characteristic is a strict hierarchical system.

Then there was this quote from Stanford.edu summing up the visual metaphor of the Rhetorica Christiana:

A divinely inspired universal hierarchy ranking all forms of higher and lower life; humans are represented by the male alone.

Then there was this quote from a essay by Sean Nee that really stood out to me:

Our persistence in placing ourselves at the top of the Great Chain of Being suggests we have some deep psychological need to see ourselves as the culmination of creation.

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Post #: 101

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:21:04 AM

barelynangel

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John,

Only a fool calls himself something that identifies his life perception that he doesn't know anything about because he hasn't choosen to find out about what it is he labels himself as but more importantly doesn't want to know what it is he is calling himself. If you or anyone wants to call yourself Gorean without doing the homework to make an informed choice as to what that identify means then you are a fool. And before people start having a fit because i called him a fool, the point of that is -- you are a fool to only one person and that is yourself. And that, is the farthest thing from Gorean a person can get.

I've always wondered why the created the Gorean forum, and after this thread, i know why they did and am glad for it.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 11/7/2008 9:23:28 AM >

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Post #: 102

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:21:28 AM

lusciouslips19

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19
As for myself, I have always lived outside of guidelines.

This is Darcy

I don't know about living outside of guidelines, as such. I have guidelines for my life, they just might not be the same as your guidelines (and I use this generally, Luscious, not as a personal repsonse to you).

When I spoke of giudelines, I spoke of rules such as religious laws. For instance, in judaism a Chassidic jew would strive to follow around 700 laws. I think you are speaking about moral code of ethics? Everyone has their own set of ethics that they live by and mine are different then yours.

Nice seeing you here and send some kisses to your other Half from me(o.k. kisses for you too).

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 11/7/2008 9:22:14 AM >

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Post #: 103

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:21:54 AM

DavanKael

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Hi, lusciouslips19----
You said: I have never understood why someone would take books of fiction and turn them into a way of life. Although I suppose I shouldn't be suprised as people took other books and turned them into religions. As for myself, I have always lived outside of guidelines.

My reply----I started twitching when I read the first line but then you pulled it exactly where I would have (Though I am not sure as extremely as I would) in your second sentence. I am only an egg (A phrase from a wonderful book that has been bastardized into a religion that, in no foundational way, resembles what the author put forth) in my contemplation of and learning about Gor. The commonality I am reading as I begin to make my way through this thread is honor. Gotta say, I am always a fan of holding one's self to the utmost standards of honor and would definitely be interested in hearing more about the Gorean perspective on that. If I can find the Norman books where they aren't costing an arm and a leg, I intend to give the series a read.
As for divisiveness, that ismentioned in some of the replies, I saw it in the poly- community years ago as many tried to say how much better they are than swingers when their actual behaviors were no different...btw, not maligning swingers in any way; in fact, I defended swingers and used the same explanation I just gave about comparable behaviors. Amazing how people get pissy when you calmly drop logic bombs and cite their own behaviors, lol! The reason I advocate unity among 'counter-cultures' or 'alternative lifestyles' is actually very practical: sometimes, wiitwd, be it this or something else 'out of the ordinary' is worrisome to some because they fear loss of progeny, loss of jobs, lack of same rights as others, etc. There are more of us out there than anyone really conceptualizes. As an example, on my little court of 2 housing groupings, so I am going to say 16 townhomes probably, I know of 3 non-monogamous households, if I am including myself. That's without knowing most of those other people: nearly 20%. That is not a small number and I live in an area where the good ole boys are still a very real thing and just one county over, the rebel flags are a-flyin' en masse. If we 'freaks' (And, I saw that with the utmost pride) came out and unified, I think there would be some pretty amazing sociological changes. If one lives their beliefs and shows people that they are a good person, folks tend to resonate with that rather well; far moreso than spouting "my group's better than your group" agendas.
My read of this thread so far has me very impressed with the attempts at understanding among folks. :>
Davan

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Post #: 104

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:24:17 AM

SimplyMichael

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My issue with Gor is that they seem to only be able to define themselves in comparison to someone else. Its like all the people with tatoos nobody can tell apart and yet claim they did it be individuals. FUCK YOU on the forehead, that might be being an individual, but does the world really need one more "tramp stamp"? Same with Gor, how can reading a book, adopting someone elses ideas, be about being an individual, especially if you have to spend so much time arguing over who is and isn't part of the in-crowd?

I have actually nearly cut someone's head off with a broadsword defending my home, I have fended off wild animals intent on eating my woman, I have had men in my gunsights, I have hunted and killed my own food, my partner knows all too well what happens when someone else grabs her arm, and if it wasn't for Mod 11 playing babysitter, the Goreans would be driven off this board. So who exactly is Gorean again?

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Post #: 105

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:27:46 AM

colouredin

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SimplyMicheal, we can all only define ourself in relation to something else, we all decide on a label based on what we arent. Rather than attacking an entire group of people isnt it better to read some of the responses that have been made Orian in particular certainly didnt have any of the traits that you have described.

I dont want this thread to be pulled i am finding it really interesting so could you at the very least frame your opinions with slightly less venom or else not comment.

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Post #: 106

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:27:48 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I do not speak for others, but unless they are obviously just a role player, I do not challenge anyone's right to label themselves Gorean. I in fact a huge opponent of what I call "The Gorean Police".

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Well, as I read the thread, I see two contradicting points.

On one hand, there is the claim that Gorean is something that can't be substantiated or quantified into words and has no inherent meaning outside of what individuals define it as.

On the other hand, I see people who are quite comfortable apparently judging who is and who is not "Gorean" based on apparently a greater understanding of the books that they can't tell us about, but we have to find out on our own in our own personal journey to make sure we are this label that only we can define.

I see this underlying theme in your posts and I respect you for it.

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Post #: 107

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:29:43 AM

MadRabbit

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I agree with colouredin.

From where I sit, you don't seem to be here for logical discussion, but rather to grind an axe against the Gorean community for whatever history of atrocities some of it's members have commited against you and BDSM.

The degree of intolerance and ridicule your showing for the lifestyle as a whole is showing you in a bad light, Michael.

Edited to Add : And since I respect you as an entity on these boards, I am tempering my words into a mild expression of the actual disqust I am feeling as I read what you write.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 11/7/2008 9:31:03 AM >

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Post #: 108

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:29:53 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

John,

Only a fool calls himself something that identifies his life perception that he doesn't know anything about because he hasn't choosen to find out about what it is he labels himself as but more importantly doesn't want to know what it is he is calling himself.

I know quite a bit about honor, integrity, morality and the like. More than most, in fact. So to imply that I don't, and need to read a book in order to do so, is simply in error. If Gor is, as has been said here, an adherence to those principles, then I need no further instruction to know that it describes me quite well.

Why do you seem so persistent in denying that I am Gorean? What standard am I not living up to?

quote:

If you or anyone wants to call yourself Gorean without doing the homework to make an informed choice as to what that identify means then you are a fool.

Lots of folks disagree with me about many subjects. Not many of them would describe me as a fool. I appreciate your concern for my well being, but I'm pretty comfortable making decisions for myself. Unless you choose to deny them to me.

quote:

And before people start having a fit because i called him a fool, the point of that is -- you are a fool to only one person and that is yourself. And that, is the farthest thing from Gorean a person can get.

I'm not feeling very foolish, so fear not... it won't interfere with my being Gorean.

John

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Post #: 109

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:32:27 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
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quote:

Same with Gor, how can reading a book, adopting someone elses ideas, be about being an individual, especially if you have to spend so much time arguing over who is and isn't part of the in-crowd?

people have stated time and again it isn't about the books. I don't see any Gorean posting here claiming to be or trying to be part on an in crowd. I have seen people saying it is up to the individual to decide if they can relate to Gor or not. There have been no definates about what a Gorean is.

quote:

Its like all the people with tatoos nobody can tell apart and yet claim they did it be individuals. FUCK YOU on the forehead, that might be being an individual, but does the world really need one more "tramp stamp"?

Not a fan of tats then. Off topic but i will say how dare you judge those who choose to have tats on the basis they are not being individual. I have five and every one is an individual design. And yes i love the fact they are individual. So in kind, fuck you on the forehead too !!

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:32:55 AM

JustDarkness

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quote:

because it takes a deeper understanding of thing the author is actually writing about.

But that makes it so difficult. Every one reads the books so differently.
And stil in the end there are people who say...you are not Gorean....because you might read it differently....making the meaning different too.
Even the writer takes a look at the Gorean world from different angles. Soemtimes from a slave or kajira pov....soemtimes from A warrior/Masters pov.
In the end...the MAster often get his slave....or even..the slave gets her Master she craved for so much.
The last one makes it even look like a romantic novel. There is a lot in the mood a reader has while reading.
But the returning theme though....the gorean life on Gor and all his features....is clear though.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 11/7/2008 9:33:46 AM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 111

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:32:59 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

So who exactly is Gorean again?

I am.

John

Edited to note that while I feel it's fair to ask questions, even tough questions, I'm not fond of the animosity either.

< Message edited by Rover -- 11/7/2008 9:35:08 AM >

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Post #: 112

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:35:47 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

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I followed the Gorean way for many years, if not in on the very start of the ls then I wasn't far behind,As the years flew right on by ,I became more and more Disenchanted by the the path of Gor...It constricts you and narrows your view leaving a lot to pass you by in the meantime..While I am not arguing that gorens can't take their books and play real life dress up smile..Just don't tell the rest of us its our way or the highway..bounty .. edited due to kitten walking accross the KB..

< Message edited by BOUNTYHUNTER -- 11/7/2008 9:53:51 AM >

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RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:50:22 AM

dawntreader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I have actually nearly cut someone's head off with a broadsword defending my home, I have fended off wild animals intent on eating my woman, I have had men in my gunsights, I have hunted and killed my own food, my partner knows all too well what happens when someone else grabs her arm, and if it wasn't for Mod 11 playing babysitter, the Goreans would be driven off this board. So who exactly is Gorean again?

Wow, Michael...you have given me a greater appreciation of Mod 11. And if she is indeed babysitting, it is because adults have forgotten how to behave~

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Post #: 114

RE: The difference between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:52:20 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

John,

Only a fool calls himself something that identifies his life perception that he doesn't know anything about because he hasn't choosen to find out about what it is he labels himself as but more importantly doesn't want to know what it is he is calling himself.

I know quite a bit about honor, integrity, morality and the like. More than most, in fact. So to imply that I don't, and need to read a book in order to do so, is simply in error. If Gor is, as has been said here, an adherence to those principles, then I need no further instruction to know that it describes me quite well.

Why do you seem so persistent in denying that I am Gorean? What standard am I not living up to?

quote:

If you or anyone wants to call yourself Gorean without doing the homework to make an informed choice as to what that identify means then you are a fool.

Lots of folks disagree with me about many subjects. Not many of them would describe me as a fool. I appreciate your concern for my well being, but I'm pretty comfortable making decisions for myself. Unless you choose to deny them to me.

quote:

And before people start having a fit because i called him a fool, the point of that is -- you are a fool to only one person and that is yourself. And that, is the farthest thing from Gorean a person can get.

I'm not feeling very foolish, so fear not... it won't interfere with my being Gorean.

John

JOHN. Many really don't give a flying fuck or not if anyone follows the gorean way,its the rest of the baggage that comes along,Maybe not in your case but there are Many Goren men on here that are just arrogant as hell.Its the ol' its our way or the highway shit that pisses me off.many aren't willing to live and let live...Bounty

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RE: The difference between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 9:58:11 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

JOHN. Many really don't give a flying fuck or not if anyone follows the gorean way,its the rest of the baggage that comes along,Maybe not in your case but there are Many Goren men on here that are just arrogant as hell.Its the ol' its our way or the highway shit that pisses me off.many aren't willing to live and let live...Bounty

To be fair, we see a fair amount of that in all lifestyles. But as it relates to this thread, I note the implication that I cannot *be* Gorean, despite the fact that I adhere to the professed principles of morality, honor, ethics, etc. There is an unspoken implication that there's something more to *being* Gorean, that cannot (or should not) be said publicly.

John

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Post #: 116

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 10:05:01 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

My issue with Gor is that they seem to only be able to define themselves in comparison to someone else. Its like all the people with tatoos nobody can tell apart and yet claim they did it be individuals. FUCK YOU on the forehead, that might be being an individual, but does the world really need one more "tramp stamp"? Same with Gor, how can reading a book, adopting someone elses ideas, be about being an individual, especially if you have to spend so much time arguing over who is and isn't part of the in-crowd?

I have actually nearly cut someone's head off with a broadsword defending my home, I have fended off wild animals intent on eating my woman, I have had men in my gunsights, I have hunted and killed my own food, my partner knows all too well what happens when someone else grabs her arm, and if it wasn't for Mod 11 playing babysitter, the Goreans would be driven off this board. So who exactly is Gorean again?

It would appear that Mod 11 is required to babysit.

What a bitch and what a sweeping barrow load of tripe you've come up with.

agirl

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 117

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 10:05:36 AM

eri

Posts: 77
Joined: 11/3/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Which is why Gor is so amusing to me. If I have to study someone else's thoughts then where is the individualism in that? Oh, but then you add the "put some effort into defining it" but which is it? Which is why I find Gor the playground for people who love definitions over action, confinement over freedom, they are in bondage to another's thoughts, all while yelling "I am free".

It took me awhile to figure that out, Michael because I did, for the longest time, think that those people (self-identified Goreans) were the most awesome people ever. They were unafraid to be who they were. They were individuals. They were strong. And so on. Except for the part where most of them (self-identified Goreans) are not any of those things.

---

I find it a bit contradictory when one will say that to be a Gorean you must do your own research, define it for yourself and so on because what they are saying is that you must self-identify as Gorean. No one else can tell you that you are Gorean. Only you can claim that for yourself.

And yet those same people will turn around and say that to be respected as a Gorean you must be accepted as a Gorean. You must prove yourself to have honor or to be free or whatever. You must prove yourself to be a Gorean, in other words.

That, to me, sounds like a contradiction. I can't be Gorean unless I self-identify as Gorean but I also can't be Gorean unless other Goreans identify me as Gorean. Oh and by the way, if the group of Goreans who identify me as Gorean do not get along with or share the same interpretation of the books as another group of Goreans, that second group of Goreans can take away my Goreaness by refusing to accept me as Gorean which I already self-identified as anyway.

I just gave myself a headache ...

Oh and as a side note, I do not self-identify as anything other than myself. I figure I'm complicated enough without tacking labels to everything I do. I was simply using myself as an example.

---

I just noticed it took me so long to write this that there have been two pages of stuff written in the meantime. Sheesh. Hot topic!

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Post #: 118

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 10:13:53 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
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John, go back and read what i said. Then if you still want to state i have told you that you cannot BE Gorean, so be it. I am sure your life is forever changed. Your implication is you have not done your homework of Gor, therefore, to me you have no clue what Gorean is with regard to what you state you adhere too. Until you do based on what you learn from the books -- it may be the same, it may be different -- you cannot be Gorean simply because you have no clue WHAT IT IS!! If you have done your homework, then your statements are redundant as i stated earlier if you do your homework and figure out you do understand it based on your own personal interpretation and not what others tell you and you choose to accept the identity, then i said maybe. I said maybe because if you do your homework only YOU can decipher if you adhere to what the identity is.

So quit putting words in my mouth because if you really adhere to the intergrity you claim, you would know that your manipulation of choosing words out of full sentences and thoughts to create some affront that never was there but the whole of what i stated never even says anything to you personally but instead leaves open a choice for you, shows me you really need to do some more homework with regard what it means to be Gorean.

Good luck.

angel

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Post #: 119

RE: The differance between lifestyles - 11/7/2008 10:14:15 AM

Rover

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eri

[ find it a bit contradictory when one will say that to be a Gorean you must do your own research, define it for yourself and so on because what they are saying is that you must self-identify as Gorean. No one else can tell you that you are Gorean. Only you can claim that for yourself.

And yet those same people will turn around and say that to be respected as a Gorean you must be accepted as a Gorean. You must prove yourself to have honor or to be free or whatever. You must prove yourself to be a Gorean, in other words.

Actually, that's not very contradictory. At least not in the manner in which you expressed it. By way of example, I can be an accountant (I'm not, for the record) and yet not respected as an accountant. Particularly if I'm not a very good one. Respect, and resultant acceptance, are not very meaningful methods to quantify the reality of a label (though they could be indicative, or even resultant).

But the contradiction that exists has to do with the standards by which one is judged to *be* an accountant, and those by which one is judged to *be* Gorean. There are universally recognized and accepted standards in order to *be* an accountant. And the standards expressed here for *being* Gorean are honesty, loyalty, home, ethics, morality, etc.

But as it turns out, embodying those qualities is not enough, though what *is* enough remains unspoken.

John

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(in reply to eri)

Post #: 120

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