Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 6:17:02 PM)

After all, it's damn confusing.

I hear people claiming Washington should listen to the people. So we have this election, and the people--as well as the Electoral College numbers--clearly elect Barack Obama. Not an unknown (this has been going on forever), and not easily (he first had to win over his own party in the primaries, which he did). Several experienced people endorsed him, from both major parties.

He ran a disciplined, organized, focused, well-resourced campaign. And after becoming President-Elect, he's clearly surrounded himself for quite some time with damn impressive advisors (just check out his economic advisory board).

And certainly patriotic Americans, after duly electing the choice of the people, would follow their President, at least for his term, yes?

Apparently not. Many people have said, "OK, I didn't vote for him, but he's the President"--including John McCain. Many others here persist in language more appropriate for before the election.

So just what makes those folks experts? Why is America great except when it disagrees with an individual's vote? And why aren't these unusually wise people Presidential advisors or candidates themselves?

And if they don't like American democracy, what exactly do they propose? Because it sounds to me like they'd like a dictatorship, just that they can't agree on the dictator.

But then, I'm confused, so hopefully the smart people will explain it to me.

Thank you for doing so!





popeye1250 -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 6:19:29 PM)

Music, here it is in a nutshell; "Do whatever you want as long as you don't get caught!"



slvemike4u -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 6:26:40 PM)

Shit MM,I would take a crack at helping you here,but you had to go and ask that the smart people explain it to you.Oh well ,if you wait long enough perhaps Celeste will come along and clear things up for you....[8|]



eri -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 6:28:28 PM)

Why should we do the work for you, Tim? You're a grown up. Figure it out for yourself.



UncleNasty -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 6:40:34 PM)

The simplest explanation is that we aren't a democracy, and never have been a democracy.

Uncle Nasty



Musicmystery -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 6:42:59 PM)

I can at least explain the concept of irony to those who find the concept daunting.



BitaTruble -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 7:05:09 PM)

MM, I would suggest you research the 109th Congress. The same people screaming now just loooove the 109th and once you see what an utter waste of human flesh resided in that particular Congress, the light will shine down upon you and you'll gain understanding. [;)]

Here's some highlights from the 109th just to whet your appetite.

The 109th Congress spent 12 hours in hearings discussing Abu but 140 hours in hearings discussing Bill Clintons Xmas card list (keeping in mind that the 109th seated FOUR years AFTER Clinton left office.)

The 109th Congress worked a total of 93 days in a whole year, 15+ of those 'days' lasting less than 11 mins.

They passed exactly two appropriations bills and with less than 4 days left in session managed to pass the single largest Omnibus bill in this countries history (even though none of them actually read it.)

Ted Stevens (you remember him.. convicted felon from Alaska?) read a spending bill to an empty Congress because it took place on a Friday and the 109th didn't sit on Friday's. Uh huh. Cost of that spending bill? One Trillion dollars .. and not a single debate because no one was home .. er.. I mean because everyone was at home and no one was actually at work! One trillion dollars, signed off without debate. None. Zero. Zilch.

(Should I mention Halliburton here? Nah... why overload.)

A Congress which failed to pass a a timely budget 9 out of 12 times.

A Congress which saw the deficit increase more than the combined 10 previous congresses.

A Congress which oversaw nothing (which is sort of their job - that whole checks and balances thing) and when hearings were held, they were a side-show sham catering to the half a dozen people who actually watch C-Span and think they are seeing Congress actually 'work' (Don't say the W word around congress.. they'll think you mean work rather than George and they break out into hives.)

The 109th Do-nothing, lying, thieving Congress which saw Senators line their pockets, pork out for favors, commit felonies, blindly back Bush, and sign into law the most aggressive violation of civil liberties in our nations history.

And who do we have sitting now to protect the 'people' .. Pelosi .. who is almost as dim as Senator Musgrave who was, you guessed it .. a member of the 109th Congress. Actually Pelosi is worse, because she 'could' have been so much more and Musgrave is just a raving idiot who doesn't have the first clue how to spell the word 'bill' much less pass one which has meat or meaning that doesn't cater to her fringe right-wing kill all homo-sex-uals agenda.

The 109th Congress was not atypical as one might think when reading about it. It was in fact, par for the course as far as congressional sessions go. Two day work weeks, time off to jet set around (you know, so they could go visit their constituents on the golf course), pocket small change (to the tune of $100,000 in some cases), pet pork and in some cases, pork for developments of lands owned by a Congressman (Ouch, not too much conflict of interest there!) .. which resulted in a net profit of $2 million dollars for said Congressman.

It wasn't until the people started to get a gist of this sort of shit that we complained .. a little. The approval ratings of Congress are horrible .. and that's because too many complain instead of take some action like writing to their Congressmen and tell them to do their damn jobs or they're out.

If there is any sort of bane on our society in the coming years it will have nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with the apathy 'we the people' have in actually doing anything about Congress and we have that power every two years and fail to do a damn thing with it because, hell, most of us like pork chops and when it benefits our home districts we think of 'our' guys as Gods and it's everyone else who's a money grubbing, pork-bellied asswipe.

Ah, but, I digress.. as Eri said.. do yer own homework. All those folks who just adore Bush have the 109th as a Bush Legacy.

Crap.. I done ranted in my pants. [8D]



celticlord2112 -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 7:08:51 PM)

quote:

And certainly patriotic Americans, after duly electing the choice of the people, would follow their President, at least for his term, yes?

No.

Patriotism can take the form of supporting a good President or opposing a bad one.



bluepanda -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 7:24:54 PM)

I absolutely loathe George Bush - consider him one of the most thoroughly despicable human beings ever to draw breath, and I have never considered him "my" president. I don't care how many other people voted for him; he is not morally, ethically, or intellectually fit to hold any public office higher than notary public, and frankly I'm not even too sure about that. I wouldn't give that slimy little reptile the benefit of the doubt  on anything, regardless of that impressive seal on the front of his podium.

So it doesn't surprise or anger me in any way if there are others who now feel the same way about Obama. Doesn't matter. It's not a repudiation of democracy in any way, as far as I'm concerned. Just as Bush did what he did for the last 8 years, whether I  approved or not, Obama will now do whatever he's  going to do for the next 4, or 8, regardless of what the people who dislike him think of the matter. C'est la vie. In 4 years, they'll get another chance to vote against him like I voted twice against Bush, and if they can persuade enough of their friends and neighbors to vote the same way, they'll get their wish. But until and unless they are able to do that, I really don't give a flying fuck what any of them think of Obama, any more than any of them gave a rat's ass what I thought of Bush. I had to live with 8 years of Bush, now they've got to live with 4 (or 8) years of Obama. Fuck 'em. 



Musicmystery -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 7:30:53 PM)

panda,

Thank you for that. I needed to hear it.

Tim



rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 7:30:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda

I absolutely loathe George Bush - consider him one of the most thoroughly despicable human beings ever to draw breath, and I have never considered him "my" president. I don't care how many other people voted for him; he is not morally, ethically, or intellectually fit to hold any public office higher than notary public, and frankly I'm not even too sure about that. I wouldn't give that slimy little reptile the benefit of the doubt  on anything, regardless of that impressive seal on the front of his podium.

So it doesn't surprise or anger me in any way if there are others who now feel the same way about Obama. Doesn't matter. It's not a repudiation of democracy in any way, as far as I'm concerned. Just as Bush did what he did for the last 8 years, whether I  approved or not, Obama will now do whatever he's  going to do for the next 4, or 8, regardless of what the people who dislike him think of the matter. C'est la vie. In 4 years, they'll get another chance to vote against him like I voted twice against Bush, and if they can persuade enough of their friends and neighbors to vote the same way, they'll get their wish. But until and unless they are able to do that, I really don't give a flying fuck what any of them think of Obama, any more than any of them gave a rat's ass what I thought of Bush. I had to live with 8 years of Bush, now they've got to live with 4 (or 8) years of Obama. Fuck 'em. 


Angry much? He may be an idiot, but damn. Personally, I think democracy in the country is a joke. It doesnt work in a society of 315 million people.



TheHeretic -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 7:42:55 PM)

         I dunno if I meet your criteria for posting a reply, but I didn't let a complete lack of the required credentials keep me out of my current job either.  I reckon I caught the gist of your question, anyways.

        First, there is nothing grudging in my acknowledgement of Barack Obama as the next President.  He won the biggest majority of the popular vote since Bush I over Dukakis.  Game over, move on.  I didn't vote for him, and all the unanswered questions I had during the campaign will be answered in their own time.  He'll get the same degree of respect from me that I gave Bush II, and probably the same general respect that Bush II got from a lot of others as well.  (No sympathy, Dem supporters.  Ya'll set the bar that low, live with it.)

       Here is the problem, as I see it.  The two-party system has become ingrained, and institutionalized.  It isn't working.  Too many good ideas get discarded.  If we could give the Constitution a 220 year tune-up, I have this crazy idea about dumping the two-party establishment, and moving to proportional representation.  Let's get ourselves one of those really wild multiparty systems in the House, and require run-offs to a majority vote for Senate seats and the Presidency.

          I live in the most populous state in the US.  California sends 53 Representatives to the House, yet despite the amazing diversity of thought, culture and experience here, it's Democrats and Republicans.  What if, instead of sending one for each hyper-engineered district, we voted for a number of candidates and the seats are split based on the percentage of votes received?  Voting for 53 would be a bit of a challenge.  We could stagger the terms in the House to clear the air a little, but we might still need some regional breakdown to keep it smooth in the larger states.  Vote for 7 might be a nice goal.

        Imagine the chaos in Washington, until they came to grips with the new order...   And then we start seeing deals and coalitions, and the strangest of bedfellows.  Maybe even some decent discussion and debate.



Termyn8or -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 7:51:13 PM)

Mus, I happen to like irony. Irony teaches us that even the most infallible logic can fail us. Granted it does so because we lack certain pieces of information usually, but all in all, the net result is that irony can wreak havoc, or simply humble us a bit.

On to democracy. This is a Republic. It is a slightly modified Republic in that there is more of a democratic component to it, but the founders were very against a democracy. Maybe there is no name for what was intended, but it certainly was not the intent. This is evident in the writings of those who actually wrote the Consitution.

The things is, what they saw as a possibility that if enough people voted for someone, they could just as easily elect that person dictator instead of say, President. The balance of power, the sort of independent branches of government, was invented ad hoc, exactly. It was well thought out, but the founders made one critical error in judgment.

See they were the government, or what we had of one at the time, and to write a document that clearly constrains their power is admirable. They just had not considered the possibility of abuse on the scale which it goes on now. Twisted and convulted, sometimes it works in the modern day. Every once in a while the system does prevent some new abuse of power somebody thinks up.

This slightly modified Republic was designed to give the People a voice by direct election of representatives. This is supposed to stop things like what recently happened in CA. A leader, who acts as a servant is supposed to stand up and just say "No you can't do that". They have done it before, the feds squashed at least three popular votes intended to legalize euthenasia. I believe it was either once or twice in OR or something and once in CA. I could be wrong about that, but it doesn't matter.

These are Citizen's initiatives going right for the state Constitution. However the guarantees provided for in the US Constitution as interpreted are held valid. The initiave in CA will be struck down as soon as someone with some money gets around to it. This is because a state Constitution cannot be in conflict with the national Constitution unless the state secedes. Not likely.

Like in Ohio, there are alot of very staunch politicians against casinos, so Ohioans were voting to amend the Constitution.

This is actually pervereting the Republic, it should be alot harder to do that, that is what a Republic is supposed to be. You don't go screwing with Constitutions over bullshit like this. You vote the bums out. Of course now the perversion lies in our lack of choices.

What if the whole citifull of voters voted even unanamously that you must paint your house pink ? That is the thing, it is not within their rights to do so. That is the idea of a Constitutional Republic, that the rights of even one, cannot be violated by even the majority. That is what the founders intended.

If three hundred million people vote that I must leave the country, unanamously, in a Democracy I would have to leave, in a Replublic I can flip them the finger and say "I was born here just like you".

That is about as near to the concept I can get right now, but it should illustrate why this country was never a Democracy, but really wasn't quite what they saw as a true Republic either.

Read some other works of the authors and/or signers of the Constitution, that is the best way to gain any insight as to their goals, and their attitudes and beliefs than anything I could ever come up with.

T



Musicmystery -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 7:51:44 PM)

Thank you, Rich. Also good thoughts!



Musicmystery -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 7:56:05 PM)

I am so glad NY doesn't have ballot initiatives.



MadRabbit -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 7:58:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

After all, it's damn confusing.

I hear people claiming Washington should listen to the people. So we have this election, and the people--as well as the Electoral College numbers--clearly elect Barack Obama. Not an unknown (this has been going on forever), and not easily (he first had to win over his own party in the primaries, which he did). Several experienced people endorsed him, from both major parties.

He ran a disciplined, organized, focused, well-resourced campaign. And after becoming President-Elect, he's clearly surrounded himself for quite some time with damn impressive advisors (just check out his economic advisory board).

And certainly patriotic Americans, after duly electing the choice of the people, would follow their President, at least for his term, yes?

Apparently not. Many people have said, "OK, I didn't vote for him, but he's the President"--including John McCain. Many others here persist in language more appropriate for before the election.

So just what makes those folks experts? Why is America great except when it disagrees with an individual's vote? And why aren't these unusually wise people Presidential advisors or candidates themselves?

And if they don't like American democracy, what exactly do they propose? Because it sounds to me like they'd like a dictatorship, just that they can't agree on the dictator.

But then, I'm confused, so hopefully the smart people will explain it to me.

Thank you for doing so!



I find this kind of ironic, because I have heard this said by a number of people in the last few days in real time who raved, ranted, pissed, moaned, and shit bricks during the entire Bush administration, hanging him out to dry at every turn.

Apparently, America became educated, wise, and capable of picking a great President during this election as opposed to the last two where they were clearly all stupid morons who elected Bush. There must have been a shift change in the American public at some point.

I didn't vote for Bush, because I didn't have a lot of faith in him.

I didn't vote for Obama, because I had slightly less faith in him and his politics then I did in McCain (I would have had a lot more for McCain if it wasn't for Palin).

I hope I am not right twice. I hope I am wrong about him.

At the very least, I don't think the new shift in administration can do any worse than the old.

Either way, the election is over and he is my President. I have better things to do then grind an axe over him when it doesn't matter anymore.

Edited to Add : And I would put good money that if McCain had won, I would be reading rants about how stupid the American public is on these forums right now instead of passionate calls for all of us to come together and back the great choice they made for President.



GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 7:59:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

The simplest explanation is that we aren't a democracy, and never have been a democracy.

Uncle Nasty


[sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]  "And to the Republic for which it stands..."



HagiaSophia -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 8:01:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda

I absolutely loathe George Bush - consider him one of the most thoroughly despicable human beings ever to draw breath, and I have never considered him "my" president. I don't care how many other people voted for him; he is not morally, ethically, or intellectually fit to hold any public office higher than notary public, and frankly I'm not even too sure about that. I wouldn't give that slimy little reptile the benefit of the doubt  on anything, regardless of that impressive seal on the front of his podium.

So it doesn't surprise or anger me in any way if there are others who now feel the same way about Obama. Doesn't matter. It's not a repudiation of democracy in any way, as far as I'm concerned. Just as Bush did what he did for the last 8 years, whether I  approved or not, Obama will now do whatever he's  going to do for the next 4, or 8, regardless of what the people who dislike him think of the matter. C'est la vie. In 4 years, they'll get another chance to vote against him like I voted twice against Bush, and if they can persuade enough of their friends and neighbors to vote the same way, they'll get their wish. But until and unless they are able to do that, I really don't give a flying fuck what any of them think of Obama, any more than any of them gave a rat's ass what I thought of Bush. I had to live with 8 years of Bush, now they've got to live with 4 (or 8) years of Obama. Fuck 'em. 


Angry much? He may be an idiot, but damn. Personally, I think democracy in the country is a joke. It doesnt work in a society of 315 million people.



The last eight years were worth it, in light of the fact that we just elected the first minority President, and that we did it because he was the most qualified candidate. We are the first Western country to elect a racial minority to the highest office in our country. It's proof that democracy does work - it just doesn't work quickly. And it shouldn't. Efficient, quick-moving governments tend to be fascist governments. Democracy takes time.

And what's wrong with being angry at a President and party that have caused the debasement of the Constitution, the degradation of America's reputation internationally, a party unable to understand what "socialism" and "redistribution of wealth" actually mean, a party that outed our own operatives in the field, a party that is responsible for more than doubling the national debt in a trumped up Texas tea party that has cost us dearly paid blood and treasure so that we're all bailing out the commercial banking industry, the oil corporations are making record-breaking profits. Why shouldn't we be angry - we should be outraged at the poor stewardship of the Republicans over the last 8 years. But, we get the government we deserve. I think, after this last election, we deserve a much better government, and we're going to get it. To go back to the main idea - it is our responsibility as Americans to hold our government to high standards. When we don't, we get Grants, Hoovers and Bushes for 8 years. When we do (often in times of crisis) we get our FDRs.



amelliagrace -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 8:20:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


Apparently not. Many people have said, "OK, I didn't vote for him, but he's the President"--including John McCain. Many others here persist in language more appropriate for before the election.

So just what makes those folks experts? Why is America great except when it disagrees with an individual's vote? And why aren't these unusually wise people Presidential advisors or candidates themselves?

And if they don't like American democracy, what exactly do they propose? Because it sounds to me like they'd like a dictatorship, just that they can't agree on the dictator.

But then, I'm confused, so hopefully the smart people will explain it to me.



I'm obviously not very smart, Tim, because I am disgustedly bumfuzzled over this behavior myself.  It was repulsive when I heard it from many opposing Bush, and it is no less repulsive now.
 
And here I am, just ignorant and gullible enough to believe that this is MY country, and Obama is MY president for the next four years at least, regarless of how I voted.  I suppose it takes towering intellect I'm not possessed of, to discern that, "He may be YOUR president, but he sure as hell isn't MINE."  And I suppose only the truly patriotic are so wise as to wish abject failure and ruin upon an administration - and thus the nation.
 
Sigh.
 
Grace



MadAxeman -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/7/2008 8:29:35 PM)

I see smart people.



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