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War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 11:50:36 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		I was listening to an oral history about WWI on CD today and one of the men giving their testament said he had lost half his comrades in an assault to take some German trenches. After a day of fierce fighting they got into the German trenches to find they had dry concrete bunkers carpeted with Blue Circle cement bags (Blue Circle was a British company). He said he suddenly wondered what he was fighting for. Of course, he was fighting for nothing or the equivalent of nothing, national pride. We are often told we (our country) were fighting for freedom in WWI but Britain wasn't fully democratic in 1914. You had to be male, 21 and not in the receipt of any government money or pay, I assume soldiers were excepted but then, most soldiers were under 21.(Given the poverty and the amount of people that relied on gov. handouts...) Another fucking fallacy bites the dust. WWI was about the rich and powerful as always and those sent to kill and be killed were just pawns in the game. As Sartre later pointed out, "When the rich make war it's the poor that die."  In this day and age where there is enough evidence to hang the politicians that send men to die, why do people fall for their stupid fucking lies when they are so transparent? Are people still blinded by the lie of patriotism? There was only one war that had to be fought and that was WWII and that wouldn't have been necessary if it wasn't for WWI.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/11/2008 11:54:31 AM >

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 11:54:52 AM   
JustDarkness


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Status: offline 		NOt sure if all wars are stupid. In history my country was occupied all the time. Freedom wars seem to have a purpose, the will of people to be free.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 11/11/2008 11:55:22 AM >

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 11:57:57 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		I think one has to distinguish between those resisting an attack and those doing the attacking, if one is to look to discern motivations for ordinary people to get involved in war - although those attacking are often doing so willingly because they believe they are resisting the enemy (Iraq being perhaps a modern example).

E

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 11:58:04 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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Status: offline 		i wish there was a smiley with popcorn...would be appropriate for this thread on this particular day. i, myself, am not patriotic (which, to me, rhymes with idiotic). would quote George Carlin on Patriotism, but that would take a little bit to find it on YouTube...but i'm looking for it.




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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 12:01:10 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I think one has to distinguish between those resisting an attack and those doing the attacking, if one is to look to discern motivations for ordinary people to get involved in war - although those attacking are often doing so willingly because they believe they are resisting the enemy (Iraq being perhaps a modern example).

E


Precisely. Politicians can only fight aggressive wars because there are foolswilling to fight them. No aggressive wars, not fighting for freedom necessary. As one of the British commanders said about Iraq, if someone kicked my door down, I'd fight, I wouldn't make them a cup of tea. (He was rather obliquely pointing out the idiotic notion that some idiots erm,.. politicians had that the Iraqis would welcome invaders as liberators.)

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/11/2008 12:07:27 PM >

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 12:23:24 PM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		War is fucking stupid, I am so glad you have noticed and added a voice against it.

Yes, it is those in power that cause it for whatever reason, but often it is they believe so much in their war, they make sure none of their family are in the firing line, just everybody elses. The pillock that over here put our people in the line of fire is now what, peace envoy, how the hell did he get that, he should be condemned as a war monger like so many others. The last thing a leader should be doing is creating wars, but it seems if a politician wants to go somewhere, a war he has to be involved in.

I once had a t-shirt from operation desert storm, it pictured a bomber in the sand, underneath it had the slogan, '' When diplomacy fails.......'', I have a new take on that, when dimplomacy fails, get another diplomat, war is to be avoided at all costs and the reality is, if we have to get our point across by force of arms, then it is much like a marital row, the one to resort to violence has lost the argument.

You can't have peace without war, my answer to that is, why not, surely we are capable, if we are not, then we really have not progressed at all.

And before I am condemned as a woolly pacifist, I have no problem with defence, but attacking is something the civilised should be beyond.

Oh yes,perhaps a way to stop wars, demand that a politician or other monger put themselves and their loved ones in the front line, they lead a country, they can lead the armed forces, I bet every effort will be made then to stop war.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 11/11/2008 12:27:49 PM >

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 12:36:00 PM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDkhzHQO7jY


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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 12:42:19 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
And before I am condemned as a woolly pacifist, I have no problem with defence, but attacking is something the civilised should be beyond.



Nod. When war is an end in and of itself (as it is in Iraq), it's never morally justified.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 12:45:28 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		There are flaws in the OP, though.

European Middle Classes were brimming with enthusiasm on the eve of WW1, and they gave their lives in huge numbers, too.

The second flaw is this: the assumption that you have to be poor to be manipulated.

A third flaw: the assumption that men are led blindly into war and do not enjoy the camaraderie. Have a read of 'The Pity of War' by Niall Fergusson; it's an alternative view and a must read for anyone with an interest in WW1.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 12:50:29 PM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		I come from an army town, I know lots of people serving in the army and raf and all of them are not lead blindly into war, most did so with pride, I was shocked when asking them how they felt when they were stationed to iraq "well this is what I signed up for" was the attitude of the day. Also many were from charming middle class familes, holding alevels and even degrees.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 12:57:59 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

There are flaws in the OP, though.

European Middle Classes were brimming with enthusiasm on the eve of WW1, and they gave their lives in huge numbers, too.

The second flaw is this: the assumption that you have to be poor to be manipulated.

A third flaw: the assumption that men are led blindly into war and do not enjoy the camaraderie. Have a read of 'The Pity of War' by Niall Fergusson; it's an alternative view and a must read for anyone with an interest in WW1.


I think we know that NG, its still fucking stupid.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:01:22 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I come from an army town, I know lots of people serving in the army and raf and all of them are not lead blindly into war, most did so with pride, I was shocked when asking them how they felt when they were stationed to iraq "well this is what I signed up for" was the attitude of the day. Also many were from charming middle class familes, holding alevels and even degrees.


There is no doubt that some people enjoy killing and the adrenilin rush of being in danger. However, I wonder how many would be so enthusiastic to go if they weren't in such a well equiped military and the odds were a lot higher against them living through the experience.

Apart from that, with the money the US wasted on Iraq, all Americans could have had free healthcare or college education but I guess murder and destruction are more prefitable for the likes of Cheney and Co.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/11/2008 1:02:12 PM >

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:01:57 PM   
UncleNasty


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Status: offline 		Note who makes money on war. Central banks. And they usually fund both sides, even if through back channels.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:04:24 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

There are flaws in the OP, though.

European Middle Classes were brimming with enthusiasm on the eve of WW1, and they gave their lives in huge numbers, too.

The second flaw is this: the assumption that you have to be poor to be manipulated.

A third flaw: the assumption that men are led blindly into war and do not enjoy the camaraderie. Have a read of 'The Pity of War' by Niall Fergusson; it's an alternative view and a must read for anyone with an interest in WW1.


I think we know that NG, its still fucking stupid.


Oi Meat: "the poor die in rich men's wars"......what's that, then?

Futile? Certainly from my standpoint.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:04:34 PM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		I always think about war when I see some of the technological marvels we have and take for granted - aeroplanes for instance. Mankind dreamt of being able to fly for centuries - then along come some bright sparks who make it happen.

What happens next? We put guns and bombs on what is still pretty miraculous in the course of history, and use it to kill each other. Its really quite tragic I think.

E

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:06:07 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I come from an army town, I know lots of people serving in the army and raf and all of them are not lead blindly into war, most did so with pride, I was shocked when asking them how they felt when they were stationed to iraq "well this is what I signed up for" was the attitude of the day. Also many were from charming middle class familes, holding alevels and even degrees.



'Takes all sorts to make a war.

More to the point, when are you arriving in Manchester for wine and song?

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:08:55 PM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		I remember a chap, a PTI whingeing before Operation Desert Storm, where he being one of those useless in war trades was to be a stretcher bearer out on the front line, the words I remember, ''I didn't sign up for this''. Prior to Desert Storm, Britain did not have the number of 'conflicts' as it seems to have now. Forces recruiting in Britain is down, hmmmm, I wonder why. Given my experience, I would urge any interested in a 'career' in the forces to think again, as I do believe if our forces numbers were down, it would urge the mongers, the politicians to actually do their job. Trade wise, what use is a soldier in civvy street. I can picture the job interview in civvy street, '' now son, a forces career is impressive, but what can you do'? '', job applicant/ex soldier ; '' I can kill in any number of ways, that and dig holes ''.     Training useful for civvy street, don't make me laugh, my trade was completely useless, I had to retrain myself and do something completely different. The point of this, is whatever an applicant is told, it is all window dressing, the point of a soldier is to kill and be killed, what a waste of a life !

Oh, I met highly qualified, motivated and mindful people, in an ideal world, those capable of getting things going, the future of mankind, but as a soldier, they were doomed to do what soldiers do, no wonder we don't move on, the brains are killed in useless wars.


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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:10:05 PM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		you know what i find ironic, every day tha i check the off topic board i see people arguing, deliberatly missing points, standing their ground against all reasoned arguments, then I see people saying that way is stupid, i agree that it is, but surely we must understand why it happens.

Ohh give me a date NG and ill hop on a train

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:12:32 PM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

you know what i find ironic, every day tha i check the off topic board i see people arguing, deliberatly missing points, standing their ground against all reasoned arguments, then I see people saying that way is stupid, i agree that it is, but surely we must understand why it happens.

Ohh give me a date NG and ill hop on a train



Isn't it interesting though, we can argue, but we don't wage war


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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:12:35 PM   
philosophy


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....war, it seems to me, always has a failure somewhere in its causation. A failure to see a problem before it becomes catastrophic, a failure of diplomacy, a failure of understanding, a failure of compassion, a failure to act decisively early enough........
However, those who fight wars, those who bleed and die, are not the problem. They come into the equation long after the causative failures have occured. To bash them is scapegoatery.......

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