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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:16:13 PM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Isn't it interesting though, we can argue, but we don't wage war



Are you sure about that? there have been some pretty heated battles on here that I have seen. A war is an argumnt with a gun as a back up.



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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:23:31 PM   
AMaster


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Status: offline 		As one who has been in combat, I have to  comment.  War is tragic, horrible, brutal, frightening, wasteful, demoralizing, dehumanizing, but unfortunately  sometimes a necessary evil.

p.s.  Would I serve again if called?  YES.

< Message edited by AMaster -- 11/11/2008 1:26:08 PM >

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:29:05 PM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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Status: offline 		i wouldn't serve...not into dying for a spot of land and invisible ideals

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:29:47 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

you know what i find ironic, every day tha i check the off topic board i see people arguing, deliberatly missing points, standing their ground against all reasoned arguments, then I see people saying that way is stupid, i agree that it is, but surely we must understand why it happens.



Better minds than those stalking the corridors of CM, have tried and failed to nail down human behaviour.

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Ohh give me a date NG and ill hop on a train



This is an infinitely more interesting development than the "War Is Fuckin' Stupid' thread. I'll drop you a line over the next few days.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:31:23 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AMaster

As one who has been in combat, I have to  comment.  War is tragic, horrible, brutal, frightening, wasteful, demoralizing, dehumanizing, but unfortunately  sometimes a necessary evil.

p.s.  Would I serve again if called?  YES.


...i don't disagree. War, at the point it actually happens, can be necessary (Iraq being an obvious exception)......it's like pulling a tooth. If its rotten enough an extraction is necessary.....but someone failed to brush their teeth.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:40:38 PM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		OP. If you really believe WWI was solely to enrich the politician's pockets, I suggest you do some research to see what Germany did in Belgium.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 1:47:15 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

There was only one war that had to be fought and that was WWII and that wouldn't have been necessary if it wasn't for WWI.

No war is ever an imperative.

Some would argue that war is preferable to the alternatives.

Myself, I prefer to live in peace, but I will without hesitation choose to live freely at war than enslaved.

Or, to extend Shakespeare somewhat:

"We would not seek a battle as we are; Nor, as we are, we say we will not shun it." (Henry V, Act III scene vi)


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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 2:20:04 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

....war, it seems to me, always has a failure somewhere in its causation. A failure to see a problem before it becomes catastrophic, a failure of diplomacy, a failure of understanding, a failure of compassion, a failure to act decisively early enough........
However, those who fight wars, those who bleed and die, are not the problem. They come into the equation long after the causative failures have occured. To bash them is scapegoatery.......



Philosophy, I'd recommend you read the memoirs of Richard H Tawney (assuming you haven't already, that is).

Tawney was an upper-middle class, christian socialist and you may know him as a prominent government minister in the years following WW1. He was offered a high ranking post at the outbreak of the war and turned it down to serve in the rank and file. There is a famous quote attrributed to him: "we are their ghosts in this game played by monkeys and organised by lunatics".

Tawney was educated, anti-war and socialist; yet he enlisted without even considering the position of conscientious objector.

Interesting. Not the problem? Debatable.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 3:29:48 PM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

There was only one war that had to be fought and that was WWII and that wouldn't have been necessary if it wasn't for WWI.

No war is ever an imperative.

Some would argue that war is preferable to the alternatives.

Myself, I prefer to live in peace, but I will without hesitation choose to live freely at war than enslaved.

Or, to extend Shakespeare somewhat:

"We would not seek a battle as we are; Nor, as we are, we say we will not shun it." (Henry V, Act III scene vi)



The trouble with alternatives, is who decides the alternatives and are they truthful in their portrayal of those alternatives.

We depend on those elected by us to tell us what is going on, but there comes into the equation, public interest, again who decides what is in the public interest and who says the public are not capable of discerning the truth. After all, they must have seen some level of truth in the politician they elected. Is it politician whence in power operate a double standards policy.

I think before anyone takes a politician's word for anything, they best examine the situation themselves.


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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 7:52:53 PM   
corysub


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Status: offline 		Comments and agreement here that WW2 was the only justifiable war.  Kinda interesting when you study history and learn that the American public did not want to get involved in a European war....leading personalities at the time from Joe Kennedy to Charles Lindburg were against the our involvment.  FDR had to resort to all sorts of tricks to help Great Britain,the most famous being the "lend lease"of a few dozen destroyers to enable the British navy to protect convoys.
It was only after the U.S. was hit with a "surprise attack" at Pearl Harbor was the country unified for battle.  The public was wrong, and it was not the last time "public opinion" determined political action instead of "political leadership", and was proven the wrong road to travel.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 8:32:41 PM   
AMaster


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Status: offline 		I can't wait to see the edited version of corysybs post!

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 8:54:58 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

War is fucking stupid...
 
Nobody is in favor of war. But the problem with such a claim lies in the fact that it invariably depends on what I call the Kindergarten Argument (a favorite of Kindergarten teachers everywhere) which, in its shortest form, may be stated as: "It doesn't matter who started it." What the Kindgergarten teacher really means, of course, is, "I don't care who started it." Because to propose such a thing seriously is psychotic. In cause and effect reality, the sequence of events is significant. It matters very much who started it, and what you are prepared (or not prepared) to do about it matters even more. Unwarranted aggression is one thing, a warranted response is another, and it does nobody any good to lump them together in a way that fails to distinguish between them.
 
K.
 
 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/11/2008 8:58:38 PM >

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 9:08:20 PM   
slvemike4u


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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 11:16:34 PM   
Arpig


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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 11:21:56 PM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjT6B6IFUU8&feature=related


a very appropriate song


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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 11:35:03 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

There are flaws in the OP, though.

European Middle Classes were brimming with enthusiasm on the eve of WW1, and they gave their lives in huge numbers, too.

The second flaw is this: the assumption that you have to be poor to be manipulated.

A third flaw: the assumption that men are led blindly into war and do not enjoy the camaraderie. Have a read of 'The Pity of War' by Niall Fergusson; it's an alternative view and a must read for anyone with an interest in WW1.


I think we know that NG, its still fucking stupid.


Oi Meat: "the poor die in rich men's wars"......what's that, then?

Futile? Certainly from my standpoint.


On the whole it is true, WWI is something of an exception. WWII was the first total war where 50% of the dead were civilians. 70% of the dead in Vietnam were vivilians, Itaq 90%. However NG, when was the last time the poor and weak started a war?

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 11:40:32 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

....war, it seems to me, always has a failure somewhere in its causation. A failure to see a problem before it becomes catastrophic, a failure of diplomacy, a failure of understanding, a failure of compassion, a failure to act decisively early enough........
However, those who fight wars, those who bleed and die, are not the problem. They come into the equation long after the causative failures have occured. To bash them is scapegoatery.......


My great uncle said if he was brave, he would have shot the people who sent him to war and not the enemy. He didn't say much about the war but he did say, the politicians can't start wars without soldiers.

Considering it is a known fact that politicians and people who are ambitious to lead (hence most political leaders) are known to have far more psychopathic tendencies than the average population, that is another reason not to do what politicians say.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 11:51:26 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

War is fucking stupid...
 
Nobody is in favor of war. But the problem with such a claim lies in the fact that it invariably depends on what I call the Kindergarten Argument (a favorite of Kindergarten teachers everywhere) which, in its shortest form, may be stated as: "It doesn't matter who started it." What the Kindgergarten teacher really means, of course, is, "I don't care who started it." Because to propose such a thing seriously is psychotic. In cause and effect reality, the sequence of events is significant. It matters very much who started it, and what you are prepared (or not prepared) to do about it matters even more. Unwarranted aggression is one thing, a warranted response is another, and it does nobody any good to lump them together in a way that fails to distinguish between them.
 
K.
 
 


Tell me one war that had to be fought in the 20th century?  WWI? No. All sides were equally to blame, in fact Britain's needless entry into the war caused it to be a world war. All the little imperial conflicts weren't necessary, thety happened because rich countries were exploiting weak countries. WWII had to be fought but it was a direct consequence of WWI so if WWI, which was about patriotism and national ego (yeah, that really had to be fought) wasn't fought, there wouldn't have been WWII. America was in Korea for reasons of ideological paranoia but anyone who gets involved in someone elses civil war gets what they deserve. Vietnam was a colonial war, America wanting to impose its ideological vision on the country. You could say that about Iraq too. So WWII is the only war that needed to be fought by any western country and that was a consequence of a previous needless war.

Saying nobody wants war is also a lie, look at who Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Perle were deciples of, yep, Straus. They wanted war, they got their war in the form of Iraq so don't tell me nobody wants war, that's just not true.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/11/2008 11:52:55 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u




Don't clap too loud, Americans wanted war in Iraq, it was on the Republican agenda so American politicians at least, do like to fight wars that are unnecessary.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 12:28:10 AM   
tweedydaddy


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Status: offline 		Blame it on the rich. It must be their fault. Soldiers are stupid aren't they?
Your absolutely right. Patriotism and a sense of service must obviously be wrong. Now tell us how to cure everything else that's wrong with the world. I await your next sermon with bated breath.
Did you see that one hundred and five year old man who almost collaped trying to lay a wreath for his dead mates? Tell him he's thick. While your doing that, why not put dunces caps on all our war memorials?
You could if you wanted to.
I'm one of those fools mentioned in this. I fought a bloody hard war against a modern fascist state that invaded soveriegn territory and terrorised British people in the Eighties, I came back to find cowards selling white poppies on the street.
War is a reality. Fighting is a reality. Dying for your Country is a reality, actually, it's a necessity. Anyone who wants to be free has to be strong, the price  for that freedom is all too often paid in blood.
You have every right to your opinion. I am one of the fools who shed blood to make sure you have the right to have it

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