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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 12:31:28 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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Status: offline 		General point.

If the money and effort invested in the wars and the military were invested in productive use, most problems in the world could be solved. However, the reason that doesn't happen is because war is big business and more profitable, both financially and politically for vested interest groups, than productive investment. America can reduce its social programmes because it is easy to disregard the poor and powerless but it has greater difficulty reducing its military programmes because there are so many rich and powerful vested interest groups involved. As the Roman's understood, if you have a big army, you find wars for them. Lands to plunder, people to exploit and for the sheer enjoyment of killing people. As Senaca pointed out, it is madness for a country to be concerned about individual justice but happy to destroy a whole nation. The west has been drunk on this madness since the start of the imperial age which is still ongoing. Money drives it, not lust for freedom, freedom is a religious belief in the west, a propaganda tool, that doesn't stand up to a modicum of philosophical enquiry. Skirmishes happen, wars are manipulated and planned and our generation in the west should know that our politicians lie to us and do not start war for our benefit but for the benefit of the rich and powerful. In previous generations governments held all the information and found it easy to hoodwink the population, there is no reason for our generation to be hoodwinked, after all we are free to gain knowledge and think for oursleves, aren't we? Sadly it seems, not enough people care that much for the freedom they claim to have and cherish. They prefer to be sheep, wear a patriotic badge and be hailed a hero for going to fight a war that was sold on lies. (and they should have known was sold on lies)

Sadly it seems, Bertrand Russel was correct when he said 'Men prefer to die than to think.'

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/12/2008 12:46:04 AM >

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 12:31:50 AM   
NormalOutside


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Status: offline 		War and most forms of violence are stupid, yeah.  One day we'll be finished with them both.  Hopefully it's not because we're all dead.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 12:49:47 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

i wish there was a smiley with popcorn...would be appropriate for this thread on this particular day. i, myself, am not patriotic (which, to me, rhymes with idiotic). would quote George Carlin on Patriotism, but that would take a little bit to find it on YouTube...but i'm looking for it.



I'm not what one could call "patriotic" either. Where I was born was purely random chance. I've been to 16 other countries, and I have to say that my illusions about the US have been shattered, and if I could switch countries easily, I would. I would much rather live in D, NL, or Canada.

I was thinking about war today, as it is Armistice Day (Veteran's Day in the US) . I think WWII is the most "just" war the US has been in; in fact, the only one since The Great War. Viet Nam was a travesty, Iraq is naked aggrassion, Panama and Granada were jokes, and I have no idea why we were in Korea. The Gulf War I can see, as I can see legitimacy in Afghanistan, but the rest?

I'll leave it here for now.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 1:20:59 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

Blame it on the rich. It must be their fault. Soldiers are stupid aren't they?
Your absolutely right. Patriotism and a sense of service must obviously be wrong. Now tell us how to cure everything else that's wrong with the world. I await your next sermon with bated breath.
Did you see that one hundred and five year old man who almost collaped trying to lay a wreath for his dead mates? Tell him he's thick. While your doing that, why not put dunces caps on all our war memorials?
You could if you wanted to.
I'm one of those fools mentioned in this. I fought a bloody hard war against a modern fascist state that invaded soveriegn territory and terrorised British people in the Eighties, I came back to find cowards selling white poppies on the street.
War is a reality. Fighting is a reality. Dying for your Country is a reality, actually, it's a necessity. Anyone who wants to be free has to be strong, the price  for that freedom is all too often paid in blood.
You have every right to your opinion. I am one of the fools who shed blood to make sure you have the right to have it



War is a choice.

No you never shed blood for my right to anything. You might believe you did but sleep easy, you really didn't.

Actually, what fucking war? You are younger than me so there has been no war fought by Britain that could have been remotely about my freedom.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 1:38:18 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		The irony of this thread is that the people who are advocating that war is bad/stupid, are waging war on those who think war is necessary.
I find that pretty astonishing.
 
This thread only highlights that war is not only not so stupid, but that nearly all believe in their own war.  Like anything, it's just what side you are on whether something is stupid, necessary or terrorism.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 11/12/2008 1:43:52 AM >

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 1:42:45 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

The irony of this thread is that the people who are advocating that war is bad, are waging war on those who think war is neccesary.
I find that pretty astonishing.
 
the.dark.
Huh?

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 1:49:01 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Huh?


If you are unsure on something, then ask away. 
 
the.dark.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 2:20:35 AM   
rosanegra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I come from an army town, I know lots of people serving in the army and raf and all of them are not lead blindly into war, most did so with pride, I was shocked when asking them how they felt when they were stationed to iraq "well this is what I signed up for" was the attitude of the day. Also many were from charming middle class familes, holding alevels and even degrees.


There is no doubt that some people enjoy killing and the adrenilin rush of being in danger. However, I wonder how many would be so enthusiastic to go if they weren't in such a well equiped military and the odds were a lot higher against them living through the experience.

Apart from that, with the money the US wasted on Iraq, all Americans could have had free healthcare or college education but I guess murder and destruction are more prefitable for the likes of Cheney and Co.



...I'll have you know my husband is a soldier. He has no desire to kill somebody, and trust me, the last thing he wants is danger, because he knows if I lost him it would kill me.

I'll be the first to tell you that I disagree with this war, too. My husband is deployed. I miss him. I don't think you can even imagine how bad it is.. I know I certainly didn't understand until it became reality to me.

Yet, I know my husband does it because he loves this country. Just because he signed up to be a soldier, and is willing to bravely face whatever comes, does not mean he RELISHES the idea of death and destruction. It means he wants to be there if and when a time comes that we truly NEED him. He could join on that day, but that isn't going to help much when there are months of training between being recruited and being able to do the job. So he is ready, just in case there ever comes a time we are truly threatened.

In the meantime, there are two quotes that sum up his feelings fairly well I believe.

"I fight not because I hate what is in front of me, but because I LOVE what is behind me."

and,

"I'd rather fight an entire year on Iraqi soil than one day on American soil."

No, I don't believe in what he is doing. But I will not fault him for believing in it himself, nor will I be any less proud of the integrity, courage, and honor that motivates him to do the job that he does.

You don't hear the pain in his voice when he calls me. You don't see the tired look in his eyes when we get to webcam. You assume that just because he signed up with the knowledge he would most likely be going to war, it was a decision he made because he wants to kill people.

In truth, it was a decision he made because he felt he had something worth protecting. I wish there were more men like him around.





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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 2:47:42 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

The irony of this thread is that the people who are advocating that war is bad, are waging war on those who think war is neccesary.
I find that pretty astonishing.
 
the.dark.
Huh?


ditto hippie, HUH?

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 2:49:31 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rosanegra

"I fight not because I hate what is in front of me, but because I LOVE what is behind me."

and,

"I'd rather fight an entire year on Iraqi soil than one day on American soil."



What the fuck did Iraq do to the US to deserves such naked aggression?

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 2:53:17 AM   
SilverMark


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Status: offline 		In our lifetimes the wars we have witnessed have been STUPID....however WWII, The American Revolution and even the Civil War were for great cause.
I detest war but admire the warrior. There will always be war ,it is somehow ingrained in people and most will be useless wastes of life to those of us not involved but, fought for reason by those who are. I have a number of career military within my family, and no clue why it is they willing do what they do but, knowing each one of them, I am certainly glad they do!
p.s. thank your husband for us rosanegra even for those who don't appreciate what it is that he does.

< Message edited by SilverMark -- 11/12/2008 2:55:03 AM >

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 2:54:54 AM   
rosanegra


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Status: offline 		Did I once, in my post, say anything to indicate that I felt we should be in Iraq?? I believe I said just the contrary! I hate this war! It is tearing my life apart personally, and God only knows how many others!

Trust me, after watching the 19 year old wife with her four month old baby crying at the memorial service for her husband, who was killed on the same base as my husband, by a bomb that could have just as easily hit him... there is NOTHING I WOULD LOVE MORE THAN FOR THIS STUPID WAR TO END!

Your question would be a better question to ask my husband. In the meantime, I would like you to actually respond to my rebuttal of your assertion that soldiers just want to kill and get an adrenaline rush off of the danger.


Because trust me, my husband isn't just risking putting me through that hell for a cheap thrill!


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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 3:08:43 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rosanegra

Did I once, in my post, say anything to indicate that I felt we should be in Iraq?? I believe I said just the contrary! I hate this war! It is tearing my life apart personally, and God only knows how many others!

Trust me, after watching the 19 year old wife with her four month old baby crying at the memorial service for her husband, who was killed on the same base as my husband, by a bomb that could have just as easily hit him... there is NOTHING I WOULD LOVE MORE THAN FOR THIS STUPID WAR TO END!

Your question would be a better question to ask my husband. In the meantime, I would like you to actually respond to my rebuttal of your assertion that soldiers just want to kill and get an adrenaline rush off of the danger.


Because trust me, my husband isn't just risking putting me through that hell for a cheap thrill!



Politicians start wars because people allow them. Iraq was on the Republican agenda before Bush got power. What was the real reason it is being fought? I guess we will never know but it is nothing to do with American security. People had the chance to stop the war before it began because the evidence was there that the reasons for war was based on a lie and that it was already on the Republican agenda. People could have exercised their freedom and said no but saidly most people are sheep.

The irony is, the President that started the war was too chicken to fight in a war himself

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 3:18:13 AM   
rosanegra


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Status: offline 		What is your problem with responding to my issue with the statement that you made? I have not asked you to continue to expound upon why the war is screwed up. I already conceded that point, and without a fight to begin with.

I merely asked you to tell me what on earth makes you believe that soldiers are just doing it to get a kick out of it?

Why can't you focus on a simple question?


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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 3:18:41 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Huh?


If you are unsure on something, then ask away. 
 
the.dark.
I thought I did so, but I was evidently unclear. Let me rephrase my question. What?

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"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 3:18:53 AM   
candystripper


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Status: offline 		I don't agree, Meatcleaver.  I thnk there are things worth fighting for, and the Isolationist movement in the U.S. after the outbreak of war in Europe were f**king wrong.  Christ, if'n anything was worth fighting, it was Hilter and the Third Reich.
 
However, I am a baby boomer myself.  I remember all the horseshit about the 'Commie boogeyman', and I still grieve for some folks who never came back from Vietnam.
 
So the U.S. is not immune from Terrorists?  *Duh*. I think the Europeans could have told us that was coming.  I can't see how tearing apart a few countries, whose cultures we here in the U.S, do not understand, is going to make us any safer.
 
If the Israelies cannot stop terrorism, who are we to think we can?
 
candystripper   
 

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 3:27:36 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rosanegra

What is your problem with responding to my issue with the statement that you made? I have not asked you to continue to expound upon why the war is screwed up. I already conceded that point, and without a fight to begin with.

I merely asked you to tell me what on earth makes you believe that soldiers are just doing it to get a kick out of it?

Why can't you focus on a simple question?



I didn't say all soldiers do it to get kicks out of it, though obviously some do and happily admit to it. As was pointed out by an American on these threads before, most of the US army is made up of people from states were there isn't much work and the offer of income and the perks such as college grants etc. etc. are too much to resist.

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 3:44:15 AM   
rosanegra


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Obviously you don't understand the concept of integrity, honor, and duty.

It is very sad. I suppose maybe one day you'll wake up and realize that you went your entire life without believing in something you'd be willing to die for, and how sad that really is.



If you took away all of the benefits, all of the so-called, 'perks,' that soldiers get.. we would still have a strong fighting force.

I want to ask you something.. if you were willing to work 12 hour days, 7 days a week, in sub-par living conditions far away from your family,  what would you believe was adequate compensation? Contractors doing far less strenuous work than our soldiers in the same environment make two, three, and four times as much as they do, all tax free.

If you just need a job that pays well, there is work that can be found that is far easier.

Soldiers are salaried employees. Figure out the average soldier's pay... my husband has worked a 12 hour day every day for the last five weeks. Figure out what that comes out to per hour... it's less than minimum wage here in the US.

And if it were all about the benefits, NO ONE would re-enlist. After three years in, you get full GI Bill benefits, which is what provides for an education. Four years is the length of most enlistments. Yet soldiers re-enlist to do their exhausting, dangerous, pain in the ass, freedom sapping job, so people like you can sit here and call them greedy, war mongering adrenaline junkies.

Riddle me that, batman.

< Message edited by rosanegra -- 11/12/2008 3:46:09 AM >

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 3:52:50 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		What has integrity and honour got to do with invading someone elses country?

I really don't know why men are willing to put on a uniform for lousy money and fight futile wars because of some corrupt politicians says its the patriotic thing to do. I am completely baffled by it. All I can say is that my brother joined up for adventure and ended up in Northern Ireland His opinion of it on reflection was that it is amzing how quick you can have you mind taken from you and learn to hate an enemy that had never done anything to you before you put a uniform on.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/12/2008 3:53:29 AM >

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RE: War is fucking stupid! - 11/12/2008 3:56:34 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		Like I said meatcleaver, ask any question on the statement I made and will answer.
I just see the irony on a thread like this, which degenerates into an 'I'm right you are wrong' type of discussion instead of upholding the title.  If this thread was nothing more than stating all wars are stupid, then it wouldn't be so ironic.  But when it comes down to degenrating certain sections of people or people on a personal level, it becomes your own war.  And when the chief contributers to a thread such as this are often the people verbally attacking others for their own personal beliefs, are well known for it and do it by using often violent and grafic responses (and not with clever debating skills) it's hard to take seriously.
 
Which is why it is ironic.
 
the.dark.

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