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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/26/2008 8:45:16 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I mean, virtually everyone knows, all are expert.

Pretty amazing, actually.


Great question, MusicM.
I can't begin to have any idea what the solutions are right now.
It is enough that I know we are in bad damn shape, and spiraling downward quickly.
 
I am not sure what the answers ARE {we certainly need a lot of solutions}.
But it is OBVIOUS, there is no EASY or QUICK fix!
I am glad that we have a President elect that is coming in and starting early, assembling
the best team that he can, and is willing to try hard, who is creating a variety of solutions, and will have to create many more as he goes along, and give it his all.
At the end of the day, all anyone can do is TRY.
Which is saying a lot more for the current Administration!
Peace

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/26/2008 10:18:44 PM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Most Americans realize the simple solution.  We need to stop jobs going away and we need to replace those that have.  More than a few of us have good ideas in relation to both of those things.  Then we elect people who want to "help and protect" everyone in the world but those who elected them.  Why should we expect our elected corporate stooges to fix our economy?


why is outsourcing a bad thing?

perhaps it means that we need to change how we regulate our jobs (abolish minimum wage).


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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/26/2008 11:09:30 PM   
artfullydominant


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Status: offline 		The simple fact is that most Americans are not willing to work in the jobs that are being outsourced and certainly not at the wages that are currently being paid. The big determining factor in all of this is the value of the US dollar as opposed to currencies around the world. Because the dollar has grown considerably weaker under the current administration, largely because so much runaway spending has been done to finance 2 wars and of course now bailout the financial institutions not to mention the overall huge deficits run up by all parties of the government and has been done so with a fiat money system, the logical choice for companies in the states to remain profitable is to cut the expenses of producing their products. The only alternatives is to either lower the minimum wage in the states and find people (would you be one who would) to work for the lower wages or to significantly increase the prices of good sold.

The best solutions to this problem are to allow the companies who cannot manage their company finances to collapse, because in a free enterprise system, you have to be free to succeed and fail. What isn't being realized in the current situation is that the socialization of the banking industry and various other tack on companies encourages more squandering of resources and mismanagement of money. This leads to a perpetual cycle of waste, fraud and abuse followed by more tax money (your money) being spent to prop up institutions that should go extinct. It would make a lot more sense to allow the collapse then let new companies come in that run stealthier operations to emerge as the new industry leaders.

If Americans want a more prosperous future, we must remember how to produce and quit allowing free trade agreements and subsidies dictate an imbalanced import/export ratio. We must also remember how to use ingenuity to develop and produce products that can substantially dominate the marketplace.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/26/2008 11:17:59 PM   
Naga


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quote:

ORIGINAL: artfullydominant

The simple fact is that most Americans are not willing to work in the jobs that are being outsourced and certainly not at the wages that are currently being paid.


I can agree with the second part of your opening statement, but not the first. When companies outsource jobs and let hundreds of people go to do it, that is people being unwilling to work. You find this a lot with support positions. And a lot of companies pay a pretty stiff price to doing so. I am watching a company bring back a support desk from overseas. The workers over there simply could not think enough outside a scripted box to actually solve issues for the customers and it killed sales.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/26/2008 11:51:27 PM   
subfever


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quote:



This forum has also given me cause to reconsider a few things. For example abolishing the fed. I see Hunky has started another one, about that. Someone will have to school him I guess, because the main fact is WE CAN'T DO THAT. It is that simple. I would like nothing more than going back to carrying sacks of gold coins off our belts or whatever, but we can't. It simply won't work.



1) Why would abolishing the Federal Reserve automatically mean replacing the current monetary system with a non-fiat, commodity-based currency?

2) Since the FR is a privately held entity, are you at all curious who the main shareholders are?

3) Are you at all curious why the FR had never been fully audited, so that these shareholders are publicly identified?

4) Are you at all concerned about the enormous concentration of wealth that has gone into these few, still-invisible hands, and the unbridled influence over all branches of government that this incredible wealth can buy?

5) Is it possible that these unknown shareholders also own shares and sit on the boards of major corporations and/or other central banks throughout the world?

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/27/2008 1:26:55 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I mean, virtually everyone knows, all are expert.

Pretty amazing, actually.


Having lived through three recessions and having been burnt in two of them (well, this is the third, not burnt this time) I have listened to the politicians and economists avidly and come to the conclusion the politicians and economists don't know what to do, even if they know what not to do. One starts to get the impression they hold their positions by means of a confidence trick. I don't think the saying, if you put two economists in a room, you'll get three opinions, is a saying for nothing. In this crisis I have definitely heard two Noble prize winning economists proffer two completely different opinions.

However, the economy is like politics, far too important to leave to politicians and experts. After all, they're the ones that got us into this mess in the first place.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/27/2008 1:27:43 AM >

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/27/2008 2:19:06 AM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

abolish yourself. How would you deal with the millions suddenly reduced to near slave labor status? Idiot.


I don't think you know what slave labor is?

is anyone forcing another individual to work? if not, it's not slavery.

I have a question. what is better, having people work for 3 dollars an hour but keeping their job, or closing their factory and leaving them unemployed while a factory is moved to mexico?


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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/27/2008 3:38:53 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

abolish yourself. How would you deal with the millions suddenly reduced to near slave labor status? Idiot.


I don't think you know what slave labor is?

is anyone forcing another individual to work? if not, it's not slavery.

I have a question. what is better, having people work for 3 dollars an hour but keeping their job, or closing their factory and leaving them unemployed while a factory is moved to mexico?



Actually, there is another option........... manning the barricades.

I would prefer to take my chances ducking an diving than slavishly go and labour for such a paultry sum. Once the means of making a reasonable living has been taken away, as far as I'm concerned, my contract with the state has been dissolved.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/27/2008 6:38:39 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

abolish yourself. How would you deal with the millions suddenly reduced to near slave labor status? Idiot.


I don't think you know what slave labor is?

is anyone forcing another individual to work? if not, it's not slavery.

I have a question. what is better, having people work for 3 dollars an hour but keeping their job, or closing their factory and leaving them unemployed while a factory is moved to mexico?


Well the capitalist wants his slaves back but will settle for the next best thing...you can show up, but I don't have to pay you.

Afterall, food, clothing and shelter NEVER forced anybody to work hey ?

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/27/2008 7:03:30 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		there may come a point where being a slave on a plantation real time will be better then dieing a horrific starvation 

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/27/2008 7:22:45 AM   
Musicmystery


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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/27/2008 7:47:38 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		The solution is simple:
A) for every thousand dollars per month that somebody earns lower the wages by two per cent. So somebody who earns ten thousand dollars per month gets a wage reduction of twenty per cent. (That is because wages are inflated just like stocks, causing the economic crisis.) If this is not sufficient to get out of the crisis, then repeat.
B) hire more people. Wealth is produced by people that work. The way to get out of a poverty crisis is to get as many people to work as possible.

< Message edited by Rule -- 11/27/2008 7:48:10 AM >

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/27/2008 9:06:37 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"I've heard that people from all over the world join CollarMe just for the financial advice."

Good one. But then you know how expensive those toys can be.

T

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/27/2008 10:25:18 AM   
UncleNasty


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Status: offline 		phb,

A wizened statement:

"the flaw is that anything that is not monitised- has no value. when in fact- it is those things that are paramount to a civilization."

One handed Uncle Nasty 

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/27/2008 5:33:07 PM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: artfullydominant

The simple fact is that most Americans are not willing to work in the jobs that are being outsourced and certainly not at the wages that are currently being paid.

That is not true at all.  Many 15 dollar an hour jobs and those with even higher pay have been ripped from people.  Entire factories that supported the economies of the communities around them have been taken to China and Mexico leaving whole communities rocked to the core.  People wanted those jobs and depended on those jobs.  The vast majority were not empty when they were taken.
This is the same as the lie that says that Americans won't work the same jobs filled by illegals.  When I have stood in line to apply for one of those jobs at a meat packing plant with hundreds of others who would have been happy with the 8 dollard an hour advertised and then watched them hire illegals they could pay under the table, THAT lie shows false also. 

Vaiation,
And to answer the question about outsourcing, it is bad because there were no controls.  The govt set up a way for greedy corps to take jobs away and move them to places where the people would work for pennies on the dollar.  American workers CANNOT compete with that.  As China has shown with their lead poisoning and the date rape toys recently, the money American companies "wasted" on quality controls was a good thing.  And have the companies passed these savings on to us?  Nope.  We pay pretty much the same for third rate crap and poisoned toys and pet food.  Outsourcing has destroyed the manufacturing base of this country almost to a point where we won't be able to rebuild it.  There need to be controls.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/27/2008 10:18:22 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		OK, let's take this to nuts and bolts, almost literally.

I don't buy things. I don't shop. When I go to the store I know what I want and I get it and pay for it and I am done. Sometimes in a thrift store I will peruse a bit, but usually I do not. I buy toilet paper, soap, food, beer cigarettes and so forth. Everything I have works therefore I need nothing.

When it comes to buying things it is usually tools, and of course those tools are made overseas. Fact of life. I can get two socket sets from a catalog for the same price that one Snapon socket would cost me. If I bought the Snapon socket and it broke, they would send a truck to my house or garage with a new one, but they rarely break. I think they still Xray their tools like Sears used to.

Paying the extra money at Sears doesn't do a thing for you, the cheap stuff really is of the same quality now. Sears is imports just like anything else. Just a different name on it.

At one time you bought an American car because it was reliable, and when it did break down it was more easily fixed, perhaps because of familiarity, but now that is gone.

In the past you might buy a Zenith TV at $299 while there is a comparable model for $209, but it is a Goldstar. You would figure the Zenith would last longer and in the past you would be right. But now Goldstar has been bought out by LG, and guess who they also bought. Zenith. So now if you try to buy a Zenith you get a Goldstar.

If you buy a new US made car, expect about 30% of the parts to be foreign. You can say all you want about we still make 70% of it, but think of it. With that massive market and scale of operations, this is actually not trivial. That is near of one third the mass market in this country. Why can't we make fuel injectors and regulators, or alternators ? On alot of cars made here those parts are made by Bosch, a German company.

That doesn't preclude the fact that they could be outsourcing the work or part of it to China or who knows where, but if they can do it why can't we ? Cut out the middleman.

To slightly rephrase the title, why does everyone have an opinion on this ? Well it seems our "leaders" live in a one dimensional world. They only seem to think one way. Another way is needed. If that isn't obvious yet, give it a bit of time. The bailout is not going to work, I can tell you that much, and I hope Obama has the balls to stand up and say NO to the next trillion they come begging for in their private jets.

Then it falls down, so what ? It was going to anyway, many of us knowing know that already. The action taken and proposed are ineffective. It just provides a short period when some people can make more money. That's the facts Jack. Period.

To compound things (sorry Hunky but I callem as I seeum) in times like this you got people out of the fucking peanut gallery wanting to abolish the fed. This is so fucking ridiculous I can't believe it.

And handing money out is bullshit as well. You give them money you take control. Money talks. Asshole Bush is trying to prevent that so his buddies got time to steal more. Hey you want bullshit talk to someone else, look around. Look at the situation. That's why the bailout had to be passed RIGHT NOW, because if you wait too long Obama might read the thing and veto it. Whaddya think I am stoopid ? You think those bankers kids were starving ? Where did the money come from for those private jets' fuel when the "leaders" of the big three came in, tin cup in hand ?

Bullshit, it was never an emergency and this was the same tactics as used to fool part of the public into supporting the invasion of Iraq. Same shit different day.

The fact remains that the system is not fixable, and it will fall of it's own weight one day. We will be plunged into an era of anarchy or near anarchy for a time. When that happens is anyone's guess, but it will happen.

Ask the same question in about fifteen years and the answer will be found in history. I may or may not be here to see it, but this whole system is going to collapse.

That is all.

T

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/27/2008 11:23:16 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Oooh, ooh, I know what's better: tariffs on goods produced in Mexico so that the factory doesn't end up getting moved there after all.

Yay! 

(Yes, it's inefficient.  But we all still have jobs.  Yay!)

Ideology is fun to play around with while people can afford their gas and camcorders.  Once that's over, they start to worry about their material well-being.  Silly humans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

I have a question. what is better, having people work for 3 dollars an hour but keeping their job, or closing their factory and leaving them unemployed while a factory is moved to mexico?

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/28/2008 8:41:37 AM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30
I have a question. what is better, having people work for 3 dollars an hour but keeping their job, or closing their factory and leaving them unemployed while a factory is moved to mexico? 


I can't see that either of these is better.  They're kind of a wash for the factory owner.  For everyone else involved, both of these options suck.

If I'm the worker, there's really not much difference between the two.  It's not humanly possible for me to work enough hours at $3/hr to pay for food, shelter and transportation.  I'm going to be on welfare either way, and have to deal with the mountain of paperwork, the aggravation of dealing with the system and the social stigma that comes with being a welfare recipient. 

If I live in the community where the factory is located, it's going to suck either way.  None of these people are going to be paying taxes, which will mean less money for road maintenance, schools, public safety, etc.  Local businesses would suffer and some would end up going out of business.  Local charities and non-profits would be stressed to the breaking point.  Quality of life in my community will decline.

If I'm a taxpayer, I'm going to be paying to support all of these people either way.  I guess I'd be paying a little less if they were working for $3/hr than if they had no jobs, but why should my tax dollars be subsidizing ridiculously low wages?






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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/28/2008 8:48:26 AM   
windchymes


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Status: offline 		To answer the OP, I think it's like the old story about Belling the Cat.  The mice all have the opinion that the solution to all their problems is to put a bell on the cat, because that way they will all know he's coming and can run and hide.

But, the problem was figuring out WHO is going to bell the cat? 

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/28/2008 9:02:52 AM   
SteelofUtah


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From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		~~Fast Reply~~

I don't have to be an Expert, Just have to pick up a History Book and Read about the Jimmy Carter Administration and you can see what similar changes did to the economy and the middle class.

Raising Taxes in the Rich raises costs of the things you buy. WHY? Because the Taxes get raised on THEM, they not willing to rick their bottom line just charge more to accomodate the tax increase.

Mind you NO ONE said they were going to LOWER taxes on the middle class NO just increas taxes on the Rich creating a LARGER middle class.

This isn't an EXPERT situation it is simple economics.

Just Read a Book and you can sound like an expert too.

Steel

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