RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic problems?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic problems?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic problems?

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/28/2008 11:21:40 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Well that's very simple. We live in a democracy. The people will decide. And considering that outsourcing of jobs was one of the top campaign issues in the battleground states this year, I'd infer that the people have already spoken. It's basically why Ohio went blue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Outsourcing is good for consumers, who pay less for the same goods at the store.

Whom should prevail? The worker or the consumer?

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 61

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 1:22:52 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

hm. I thought it was because they had more guns and armor than I do...and if I step out of line they will take me from my home and put me into a jail...or if I resist, they will outright kill me.

would you pay your income, sales, gas, property, and vice taxes if you were not forced to do so?

I certainly would. I'm more than happy to tip up my contribution toward the things that I need, but can't get done off my own back.

I suppose there are countries devoid of the rule of law and liberal government, where you could craft a life according to your needs. I hear the Northern Territories in Oz and certain parts of Mexico are bordering on lawless (I haven't been to confirm, mind you). There's an alternative for you.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 62

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 1:40:51 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

hm. I thought it was because they had more guns and armor than I do...and if I step out of line they will take me from my home and put me into a jail...or if I resist, they will outright kill me.

would you pay your income, sales, gas, property, and vice taxes if you were not forced to do so?

I certainly would. I'm more than happy to tip up my contribution toward the things that I need, but can't get done off my own back.

I suppose there are countries devoid of the rule of law and liberal government, where you could craft a life according to your needs. I hear the Northern Territories in Oz and certain parts of Mexico are bordering on lawless (I haven't been to confirm, mind you). There's an alternative for you.

Afghanistan is a Libertarian paradise. No laws at all. No taxes. No nothing. Just have to be careful about which warlord's turf one trespasses upon.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 63

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 1:47:48 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Cheap labour in foreign countries as a means of circumventing hundreds of years of hard fought workers' gains? May as well go back to the drawing board.

so outsourcing is economically bad because certain people aren't getting a job?

The last thing I'd recommend is business adopting a mindset of taking on cheap foreign labour as a means of increasing profits. I'd estimate this is a flawed, short term approach that is storing up problems for the future. Assuming you want a skilled population contributing to the economy and society, i.e. a competitve nation, then the solution is to invest in your own people to generate those skills. I'm sure you appreciate that outsourcing is not without conditions - whether those be investing in factories in the foreign nation, or training the workforce in that nation - well, yeah, by all means invest in a foreign nation at the expense of the competitiveness of your own workforce. The by-product of investing in foreign nations is their political stability, and generating a broad framework for the exchange of ideas and innovation - given time, the home country will lose its edge.

England and Germany are interesting comparisons. At the height of the English empire (say 1880s), the rot had already set in, because we'd forgotten about what made us successful and were far too busy fattening ourselves on the rewards of success. At that time, a hungrier, up and coming nation (Germany) was beginning to outstrip us; they were investing in their people through advanced forms of education and welfare provision to enable an ultra-competitive nation. The English caught on in the 1900s and adopted many of these German ideas, but the damage was done. I think there's a lesson that applies to the modern day.

I'm not making any judgements on who does or doesn't deserve a job - I'm suggesting a purely utilitarian approach of investing in your workforce to guarantee the nation's competitiveness.

Edited to add: take a look at France and England today. The two have comparable GDP. One is a nation where the workforce runs 'round the streets demanding 35 hour weeks; the other is a nation that is quite happy to work upwards of 45 hours a week. We don't want to limit ourselves to short weeks and we don't demand them. So, how is it possible that we have comparable economic success? the French invest in their workforce. The English and the French could learn a lot from one another, and a middle ground between the two would effect a successful nation.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 11/29/2008 2:03:03 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 64

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 2:18:36 AM

tweedydaddy

Posts: 673
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline

I know as much about economics as I do about Nuclear fission, but it's hard not to have an opinion when the neighbours are all having thier homes and cars repossessed and thier kids are doing thier damnest to get invited round for dinner.
Better to light a candle than curse the darkness, unless you are in a gas station at the time.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 65

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 2:26:51 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

I'd say it all depended on what companies were making as to whether they should oursource or not. Sometimes outsourcing is necessary for trade deals such as Japanese cars being made in the USA. If Japanese companies didn't make cars in the US then the US would have put up trade barriers against Japanese products. From what I understand, from the point of view of German manufacturers outsourcing to the US, that has much to do with currency differences and fluctuations. The other point is, the production outsourced to the US is for (hopefully for the companies) US consumption. However, there has been a drop in quality of German cars due to outsourcing, as with Japanese so outsourcing is pretty much a two way street. As for making plastic toys, if they were made in the west they would cost too much and people wouldn't buy them. There is only so much someone will pay for a piece of plastic. As I aid, there are many reasons for outsourcing and cheap labour is only one of the reasons, trade, polical stability, corporate tax, nearer potential markets etc. etc.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 66

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 2:35:55 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As I aid, there are many reasons for outsourcing and cheap labour is only one of the reasons, trade, polical stability, corporate tax, nearer potential markets etc. etc.

The point of outsourcing is to increase your profits. Fine in the short term, but consider the long term implications of investing in a foreign nation at the expense of your own workforce; no country in its right mind is going to let you waltz in without getting something in return.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 67

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 4:36:41 AM

MmeGigs

Posts: 706
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30
and also, charities and non-profits used to be financial empires before the state took over these jobs. I assure you, they can handle it.

I think you need to check your history. The non-profit sector can't "handle it" today any more than they could then. They were struggling before the recent downturn, and it's expected that within the next year quite a few will be closing their doors. There have been all kinds of news stories recently about increasing demand for their services while their incomes are flat or decreasing. Here's one - US Office Workers Who Used To Donate To Charity, Now Recipients Of Doleouts.

quote:

I agree, your income should not be taken away from you for any reason.

I didn't say anything like that. I don't mind paying taxes - there are things that we need to do as a society and those things cost money and I'm happy to pay my share - but I don't want my tax dollars used to allow companies to pay their workers sub-survival wages. It seems to me that if my company's profitability relies on paying my employees so little that they have to turn to the govt or charities to help pay for their basic living expenses, I've got a piss-poor business plan. The fact that most businesses are doing it doesn't make it a good business plan.

quote:

but the question is this...would you have to subsidize these 'ridiculously' low wages?

Without a living wage, yes, we would. The alternative would be to let the folks who are making your $3/hr go hungry and homeless. I don't see that as an option. If you think that we wouldn't need to subsidize your $3/hr wage, I'd like you to explain how you see that working in real life.

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 68

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 4:37:58 AM

MmeGigs

Posts: 706
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
So which is more meaningful? Higher wages or lower prices? Keep in mind that "both" is not a viable answer over any appreciable span of time.

I think that if low prices come at the cost of economic viability for the folks at the bottom of the ladder, they're not sustainable or viable. How about living wages and reasonable prices? I'd like to see us give that a shot.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 69

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 7:33:57 AM

MmeGigs

Posts: 706
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
The point of outsourcing is to increase your profits. Fine in the short term, but consider the long term implications of investing in a foreign nation at the expense of your own workforce; no country in its right mind is going to let you waltz in without getting something in return.

I don't know that in the big picture, over the long term and all that, it really matters that a lot of manufacturing jobs were off-shored. Like it or not, we're a global economy, financially interdependent with the rest of the world. If the jobs had not gone off-shore, US workers would still have seen downward pressure on wages and benefits because we'd still be competing with less expensive labor in other parts of the world. Some of our manufacturing didn’t go offshore, it just closed down. The rest of the world wasn't buying a lot of what we manufactured and we were buying a lot of imports. I think we're going to regret off-shoring the tech jobs.

It wasn't all that long ago that businesses were having trouble finding workers and economists were concerned about a labor shortage driving up wages. They needn’t have worried, as it turned out. The job growth was mostly in retail goods and services. Retail is still considered a "starter job" that doesn't have to pay real wages, even though many people who have to go into retail jobs aren't just starting out and are likely to be staying in the retail sector for quite a while. Many manufacturers that didn't leave found that they were competing with retail for employees rather than with other manufacturers, so manufacturing wages went down.

There were some economists who voiced concerns about this - that our consumer-driven economy was going to feel the effects of having so many people become less effective consumers. They pointed out indicators that things were going awry - that mid-range retailers were faltering while dollar stores were springing up like weeds, that more working people were getting food stamps and medical assistance, that the waiting lists for public housing were getting longer, that more people were filing bankruptcy - but no one wanted to hear it. Living wage?? That’s commie-talk!! They slapped some bandaids on a few of the symptoms, ignored the larger problem and went back to the search for innovative ways to create a double-digit ROI. And here we are.

< Message edited by MmeGigs -- 11/29/2008 7:35:35 AM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 70

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 8:30:07 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

How about living wages and reasonable prices?

Both of these are fictional and have no basis or bearing on economic reality.

_____________________________

(in reply to MmeGigs)

Post #: 71

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 8:35:49 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

Well that's very simple. We live in a democracy. The people will decide. And considering that outsourcing of jobs was one of the top campaign issues in the battleground states this year, I'd infer that the people have already spoken. It's basically why Ohio went blue.

1. No, we do not live in a democracy (good thing, too).
2. Economic activity is not and should never be a political issue. Demagoguery leading to dictatorship is the inevitable consequence of that sort of stupidity. From the Gracchi brothers on down to Lenin, Hitler, and Mussolini, history teaches that lesson in abundance.
3. A free-market (i.e., working/functional) economic system will trend jobs and wages towards optimum market efficiency and market equilibrium, which means some folks make more, some folks make less, and some jobs go where the labor markets less costly. Which also means that not only have the people not spoken, they haven't even asked (or been asked) the question.

_____________________________

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 72

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 9:31:04 AM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

There have been, at various junctures, campaigns to "buy American" and "look for the Union label"--all focused on preserving domestic industries and jobs. Each of those campaigns failed to alter people's buying habits, which invariably trend towards the least price for comparable goods and services.

So which is more meaningful? Higher wages or lower prices? Keep in mind that "both" is not a viable answer over any appreciable span of time.

.....not sur that's a useful question. Wages and prices, as we have already established, have a relationship with each other. Take for example the minimum wage. When it was introduced in the UK doomsayers argued it would be the deathknell for small companies. It wasn't. In fact they got a small bump in profits. Reason being the minimum wage actually increased, by a small margin, the amount of disposable income in the economy......thus stimulating that economy.
In other words, increasing wages at the bottom end increased the amount of consumers. This is good. It's not always a case of higher wages crippling an economy. The trick is to find the balance point.
Your earlier point though, regarding buying domestic products is well made. It is not a point though, affected by the economics of the situation. It's more psychological than that. In order to make a shift like that a sort of (gasp) social engineering would be required.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 73

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 9:46:21 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As I aid, there are many reasons for outsourcing and cheap labour is only one of the reasons, trade, polical stability, corporate tax, nearer potential markets etc. etc.

The point of outsourcing is to increase your profits. Fine in the short term, but consider the long term implications of investing in a foreign nation at the expense of your own workforce; no country in its right mind is going to let you waltz in without getting something in return.

Without Volkswagen, Mercedes and Toyota outsourcing to the USA, their products would have been penalized with tarriffs.

People think outsourcing is all one way, it ain't.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/29/2008 9:47:15 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 74

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 9:48:02 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

It is not a point though, affected by the economics of the situation.

Ah, but it is the economics of the situation. People are value maximizers in all transactions. We purchase goods and services that, to our individual perceptions, deliver the greatest value per dollar spent (this does not always equate to buying at the lowest price, although for putatively equal goods and services that will be case). The campaigns were efforts to shift the value perception by appealing to ephemeral group identities. Group identities are the amalgamation of individual values and value systems, not the predicate of those values; such campaigns fail over any appreciable span of time because they do not speak directly to individual percieved self-interests and values.

Bringing this back to the question of higher wages or lower prices, the question has relevance because that is precisely the tradeoff that is being posited when arguing for or against "outsourcing". If you limit resources, the inevitable result is that costs and prices trend up. If you expand resources, the inevitable result is that costs and prices trend down. Arguing theoretically for more jobs to be kept at home equates to an acceptance of generally higher prices--and for that scheme to prevail, the consumer has to perceive real value in the tradeoff. That perception does not appear to predominate across the broad swath of the consuming public.

_____________________________

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 75

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 10:07:29 AM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Arguing theoretically for more jobs to be kept at home equates to an acceptance of generally higher prices--and for that scheme to prevail, the consumer has to perceive real value in the tradeoff. That perception does not appear to predominate across the broad swath of the consuming public.

...agreed, which is why the only solution is some form of social engineering which propogates such a perception. Merely lowering wages will simply reduce the amount of disposable income and is thus a short sighted solution.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 76

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 10:31:14 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

...agreed, which is why the only solution is some form of social engineering which propogates such a perception. Merely lowering wages will simply reduce the amount of disposable income and is thus a short sighted solution.

Ultimately, lowering or raising wages has negligible effect on disposable income. Which is why minimum wage laws never produce the permanent purchasing power increases their proponents use as justification. Raise or lower wages--increase or decrease disposable income--and prices necessarily adjust to match (because suppliers want to sell just as consumers want to buy).

Remember, these are cyclic processes, not linear ones. There are no endpoints nor final outcomes.

_____________________________

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 77

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 8:57:30 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Well, I live in a democracy; maybe you don't. And in my democracy the people decide what should and should not be a political issue--not celticlord2112 from Collarme. As for your Point 3: that is exactly what Alan Greenspan sheepishly admitted to Congress that he used to believe, and now understands is wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Well that's very simple. We live in a democracy. The people will decide. And considering that outsourcing of jobs was one of the top campaign issues in the battleground states this year, I'd infer that the people have already spoken. It's basically why Ohio went blue.

1. No, we do not live in a democracy (good thing, too).
2. Economic activity is not and should never be a political issue. Demagoguery leading to dictatorship is the inevitable consequence of that sort of stupidity. From the Gracchi brothers on down to Lenin, Hitler, and Mussolini, history teaches that lesson in abundance.
3. A free-market (i.e., working/functional) economic system will trend jobs and wages towards optimum market efficiency and market equilibrium, which means some folks make more, some folks make less, and some jobs go where the labor markets less costly. Which also means that not only have the people not spoken, they haven't even asked (or been asked) the question.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 78

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/29/2008 9:29:04 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

LAM, you do not live in a democracy. (if you live in the US).

If you did pot would be totally legal in few states, euthenasia would be legal in two as far as I know and Gay marriage would remain banned in CA, which it won't.

The founders intended and formed a Republic. A representative Republic with enhancements. Now the best I could call it is a Socialist, semi-ogliarchic psuedo Democracy.

As far as the minimum wage goes, I am almost proud not to know what it is. I hope noone around here does either. The whole idea of a minimum wage is wrong. Not because of what has been stated here, but because each Man should make his own deal with his employer.

Likewise I am not against unions because of their effect on the economy, the way they gouged so much out of the suits, but because they represent uniformity. In case you hadn't noticed, we are not uniform.

T

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 79

RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/30/2008 12:59:26 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

The silly idea that a republic is not a democracy comes from a bad misunderstanding of the Federalist #10.

"Democracy" means "rule of the people." No more and no less. It's an ideal, not a specific type of government. A representative republic is an INSTRUMENT through which the IDEAL of democracy is implemented. There are other possible methods of implementing the ideal of the rule of the people, but in my view a representative republic is the only one that has any hope of success.

Democracy is sometimes misunderstood to mean "mob rule"; obviously, in THAT sense, the United States is not a democracy. Madison called that "pure democracy" in Federalist #10, but he was hardly saying that the federalist republic (which he fervently believed in) was anything other than an instrument through which the rule of the people could be effected. What is the first line of the freaking Constitution, after all?

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 80

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic problems?

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.094