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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/30/2008 9:28:39 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Welcome to CM Mus, they jacked you, they have jacked me, I have jacked others.

OK let's just clear this up, this is not an absolute Republic nor is it an absolute Democracy.

The speed of sound is more like 750 MPH not 600.

Moving along, you made a good point and I think I made a good point early on. They do come crawling out of the woodwork so to speak. Everybody seems to have a solution, some valid, some not so valid. Probably a good thing not to live in a Democracy then eh ? We'd never get anything done.

These threads are in a gray area, they are not a complete free for all, nor are they akin to a classroom which exists ad hoc and the subject matter is under strict guidelines.

As far as everyone having something to say, I think that is like a car wreck. Admit it, when you see a car wreck most of you slow down and look to see as much as you can see. In the case of the economy it is pretty much a car wreck, but we know somebody in the car. Greedy and philanthropic alike care, as we all have a stake in the outcome.

So when you ask why everybody has something to say, and they start saying it, I am surprised that you are surprised. After all, you know where you are right ?

I see two possible ways to make a thread pretty much unlikely to be jacked. One way is to pick a topic to which noone will reply. The other is to make the subject so specific that the peanut gallery really has nothing to say, for example my "Violin Experience" thread. Food and cooking threads also do well in this regard.

However when you start out on anything political or about economics it's pretty much like sticking your bear claw in a bees' nest. My neighbor has a saying "Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one".

It is hard to find a socio-political subject on which everyone does not have an opinion. The closest one for me is Gay marriage. I say let them do what they want. However when they have their first trip to divorce court the will rue the day they even thought of it. There are no winners in a divorce, except the lawyers.

Now watch them latch onto that and really jack this thread ! I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it.

T

(in reply to MmeGigs)
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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 11/30/2008 11:35:11 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Wow, we're still doing this?  Have you really never heard of the term "representative democracy"?  You have ONE point: our system of government is not majority rule.  Congratulations, but no one ever said otherwise.  Now please move on to something else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Truthiness

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

If you want to nit-pick.

Apparently, few of our presidents realize this either. Just this week, Bush referred to the U.S. as "the oldest democracy."


Bush was equally as wrong then. 

And it's not as if your nit-picking the nit-picking is adding anything to the thread either.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 11/30/2008 11:38:02 AM >

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/1/2008 5:47:45 PM   
Truthiness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Wow, we're still doing this? 


Actually, no.  It'd been about 8 hours since I'd stopped before you asked and brought it back up.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/1/2008 6:28:01 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Oh good grief.

Did not!
Did so!
Did not!
Did so!
You did it!
No I didn't!
Yes you did!
Well you did it first!
Liar!
You're the liar!
Am not!
Are too!




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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/1/2008 6:46:37 PM   
Truthiness


Posts: 251
Joined: 11/27/2008
Status: offline 		Well, if I were to ask someone "Wow, are you still sleeping?" eight hours after they woke up, they'd look at me like I was crazy.

Likewise, when someone 8 hours after I'd stopped posting says "Are we still doing this?"...well, hopefully you get the picture.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/1/2008 7:06:29 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I wonder if the circle became vicious because this is a perverts' website.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/1/2008 7:29:12 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I wonder if the circle became vicious because this is a perverts' website.


KittinSol, speaking for yourself I hope.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/1/2008 9:26:34 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Well if the simple rule of not spending more than you take in were followed, it would be a hell of a lot better. That is a simple rule now isn't it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I mean, virtually everyone knows, all are expert.

Pretty amazing, actually.


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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/2/2008 1:55:24 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Well if the simple rule of not spending more than you take in were followed, it would be a hell of a lot better. That is a simple rule now isn't it?



Sounds good on the face of it, but is there more to the story?

Businesses speculate to accumulate - debt finance, equity, venture capital etc - why would a government be different?



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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/2/2008 2:03:37 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Businesses speculate to accumulate - debt finance, equity, venture capital etc - why would a government be different

Governments should not be "for-profit" entities. And that is the signature difference.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/2/2008 2:08:19 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Businesses speculate to accumulate - debt finance, equity, venture capital etc - why would a government be different

Governments should not be "for-profit" entities. And that is the signature difference.



CL, I would have thought a small rodent with not much more than a sewerage pipe for entertainment, would take your statement as a given.

A government has objectives. Why should a government not borrow in order to meet these objectives? A business was used in order to offer that success requires funding - businesses seek debt and equity finance.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/2/2008 2:16:05 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Even with a business, liability should not exceed equity . In a government, the assets belong to the people, so they should not be put up for collateral. Yes there will be exceptions, but they are exceptions and not the standard. Our government seems to believe deficit spending is a standard.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Well if the simple rule of not spending more than you take in were followed, it would be a hell of a lot better. That is a simple rule now isn't it?



Sounds good on the face of it, but is there more to the story?

Businesses speculate to accumulate - debt finance, equity, venture capital etc - why would a government be different?




_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/2/2008 2:17:32 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

A government has objectives. Why should a government not borrow in order to meet these objectives? A business was used in order to offer that success requires funding - businesses seek debt and equity finance.

Because businesses have the discipline of the marketplace to restrain their spending habits (I'm talking Main Street, not Wall Street). Their capacity to borrow is ultimately circumscribed by their capacity to repay as well as their desire to earn a profit.

Government has no such constraint, no such discipline. When government borrows, what safeguard exists to ensure that the objectives are prudent, the borrowing sound, the spending efficient?

For all the imperfections and inefficiencies of the marketplace, it is more of a restraint on business than exists for government.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/2/2008 2:22:46 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Even with a business, liability should not exceed equity .



Any investment - be that systems, assets, a foreign venture etc - requires spending up front in return for future income. 

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/2/2008 2:29:10 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Their capacity to borrow is ultimately circumscribed by their capacity to repay



No lender will fork out good money where there is no prospect of earning a return, regardless of whether or not the borrower is a government or a business.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Government has no such constraint, no such discipline.



Of course it has.

A government has exactly the same constraints as a business - the livelihood and status of the constituent members. Businesses go bankrupt every minute of every day - they are as open to sub standard practices as a government.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/2/2008 3:03:28 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Income for a government, in this case the US government, should be tax revenues not investments. Not sure how it applies to what you are saying.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Even with a business, liability should not exceed equity .



Any investment - be that systems, assets, a foreign venture etc - requires spending up front in return for future income. 


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/2/2008 6:16:57 PM   
Truthiness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


Of course it has.

A government has exactly the same constraints as a business - the livelihood and status of the constituent members. Businesses go bankrupt every minute of every day - they are as open to sub standard practices as a government.


Many trillions of dollars suggests that our government doesn't have the capability to discipline itself within the same constraints.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/3/2008 2:57:27 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Income for a government, in this case the US government, should be tax revenues not investments. Not sure how it applies to what you are saying.



It applies in the sense that governments borrow to get things done. 'Tax revenue' isn't always palatable or economically viable. Government borrowing is simply another source of funding - no different to debt or equity finance.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/3/2008 3:08:24 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Actually, when you look at the 'creative' book keeping as practiced by the federal government you would notice practices that would violate the law in most judicial systems.

Basic accounting means that debits equal assets, when the debits exceed assets, then the institution is insolvent, you know, kinda like ENRON.....

So, this would mean that when the US Government has exceeded its assets, then the government is no longer financially viable,

Which, under bankruptcy law in the US, all financial and executive officers of the government would have to be fired and a board of trustees be appointed by the courts.

So, in the case of our government, which is proof of the organizational concept of the blind leading the blind in a mine field, where no one knows who is in charge, the applicable term would be, "We the people be screwed!"


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RE: Why is it everyone knows the solution to economic p... - 12/3/2008 3:18:28 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Actually, when you look at the 'creative' book keeping as practiced by the federal government you would notice practices that would violate the law in most judicial systems.

Basic accounting means that debits equal assets, when the debits exceed assets, then the institution is insolvent, you know, kinda like ENRON.....



Absolutely not. Liquidity is what matters. Do you have cash to pay your suppliers? Assuming you do, you will survive - and this cash may have been built up years before expenditure began to outstrip income. Debits and assets? Assets and liabilities; credits and debits. Perhaps you do things differently over there.

Enron was in trouble as a consequence of creative book keeping - treating loans as income, and attaching loans to the subsiduaries and not consolidating them.

I've no idea what point you're making, by the way. Further details would be useful.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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