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RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 2:37:36 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		Hey Geoffozi,

First, let me say that I think it's really awesome your putting a lot of time and thought into your own D/S relationship and even more awesome that you posted them here to be scrutinized so you can improve on them. To me, that totally nullifies your level of experience and chronological age, because it shows you eventually be a pretty awesome dominant. The knowledge and hard knocks come with time. Everyone goes through the process, but if you don't have a desire to learn and improve, you will just end up some asshole.

Now rather than make a public mockery and spectacle of you, let's try some constructive advice.

The first thing you have to keep in mind when making a list of rules and protocols is the more rules and protocol you have, the more energy you will have to invest into providing the discipline to keep those rules maintained. Given that it takes a person roughly 21 days to form a new habit, it would take quite a long time and a lot of effort to get something like this consistent and in sync with one another.

The other thing to keep in mind is while it's good to have a general outline of what you like and what you want out of a girl, it's still going to change a bit from individual to individual.

I have a small list myself that provides a basic outline of what I like and what I expect.
  • She refers to me by my given name and responds to question or command with "Yes, sir", "No, sir", "Thank you, sir", and "Your welcome, sir".
  • I have a couple of collars I purchased that are discreet and look more like a choker or necklace than a collar and they are worn at all times, with the exception of showering and swimming. The leather one is worn at night and replaced with the necklace one during the day so the leather can air out and dry.
  • When first in private after spending a long period of time away from each other, the initial greeting is kneeling and kissing my feet. This is a really simple and intimate protocol I borrowed from a friend of mine that really helps set the mindset and emotional connection that sometimes gets lost in the hustle and bustle of daily life.
  • No body hair below the neck. Shaving is done on what's reasonable for the skin and body of the girl.

These are all simple and basic and universally applicable. All the other cool stuff like restricting use of underwear and nudity is done at my discretion because the realities of life make that stuff difficult to maintain on a regular basis. As I develop a knowledge basis of the individual person, I sometimes add more or change some of them based on the particulars of the individual. When I get to a live-in situation, I will probably add a few more.

The point I am getting at is just start with a small base and grow on that based on what works and doesn't work for the both of you.

One of the challenges that you face as a dominant when crafting protocols is finding the line between your own desires and practicality. There is no rule that says "A submissive must be in an unnecessary amount of discomfort and agony to be a submissive." Further more, unrealistic rules that bring about an unnecessary amount of discomfort and agony will be harder for the girl to maintain as well as possibly result in the build up of frustration and resentment. As a good leader who cares about the well being of your girl and not a selfish asshole who just wants what he whats, you don't want to make her life uncomfortable and agonizing, right?

There is too much to your list to go through and break down point by point, but I hope the above provides some general advice and guidelines to think about. There is a couple of threads in my sig you might want to check out to.

Don't let the negativity get you down. Your on the right track.

_____________________________

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The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Geoffozi)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 2:46:33 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		fast reply
 
I think your set of rules is a wonderful start for you personally. What I mean is, by writing it, you're working out what it is you want. That's gotta be a good thing.
 
I think however, anyone in any long term relationship will tell you, basic ground rules are needed but they kinda almost need to be simple for them to be sustained. Example my no.1 rule is "to obey"..that covers heaps of areas and isnt complicated for me. Over time, Master has said such and such as to how he wants things done, or other things he wants from me and its just like a natural progression that has worked well.

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RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 2:54:32 PM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah, I give you (the OP) about three days of trying to enforce all that stuff and then my money's on you seriously revising the list.

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RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 3:03:09 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Geoffozi

I have been trying to put down my list of rules and I am curious as to what other people like.  By that I mean are my expectations realistic or no...if you could please take a look at what I have written down and give me your opinion...it would be greatly appreciated.



Your expectations are both likely to be realistic and not realistic.  The problem is that no one not even you can assess which one Are going to be realistic and those that are not.  The issue rests with the fact that you are missing the other side of the equation... the submissive.  I appreciate they are your preferences and that you are going to establish rules on them but it might be better to have someone that is actually there to obey them before you get to involved in making them.  You just might find that some of the rules are rather pointless and then again you might just find more to add. 

Secondly, I think you might be missing a step or two.  Rules, Laws etc are often based upon a common principle and or values of society or the relationship.  In believe that it is more important at this stage in your life that you reflect and have deeper understanding and ability to communicate that understanding of your principles and values of the D/s relationship.  It will be those principles and values that your rules and instructions we be rooted into.  For example, you made note that the submissive is going to be free to think.  This is more a value statement than it is a rule.  I can't tell you how many times that I have seen Dominants profess that they wish to control the way a submissive thinks.  Countless times I have seen submissives that not only come to the boards to ask what to do.. but how to think on a given issue.  It seems more appropriate to me that you consider you include this kind of thing more into a statement of your values and principles of the relationship.   The declaration of Independence was one of the most powerful pieces of paper that has ever been.  It was very much a statement of values and intentions of a small group of individuals.  They didn't sit down and draw up a set of new rules for their country... since there was no country at the time.  This is very much like your situation.. you have No relationship.  Having that fresh new relationship and all the emotions and thoughts that will come with it is going to affect the rules, guidelines that you might want to put forward.  I suggest that putting down rules today just might be counter productive for you to actually find the appropriate match in the first place. 

When it comes time to make those rules you are going to have to becareful that you don't over load yourself, her and your relationship.  There is no obedience unless there is command.  To command often times is to make rules to establish the order and functionality of your relationship.  However, to few commands or rules for your submissive and she will not feel that she is exercising behavior that requires obedience and as such will sometimes feel neglected and maybe even abandoned.  To many rules and she may feel stiffled and hindered.  It is important to appreciate the partner you have to find that right balance.  Rules are NOT made to be broken.. they are made to be followed and Obeyed.  However if you stiffle and hinder your submissive with "Red Tape" you will actually gain disobedience or Rebellion.   Rules need to be effective and appropriate to the situation and relationships of the people involved.  But at the same time, without sufficient rules applied the person will not feel that structure that they require and/or desire and you will get their contempt and disrespect since they can not give any obedience.  For obedience to occur there must be command or instuction for it to occur.

In my own world.. my rules and guidelines would take 20 plus pages.  I know one gentleman (a friend) who wrote a book that is in large part is the slave manual to his slave and I believe it is over 100 pages.  In the end, it's not the number of rules that matter.  It is a quesiton of the number being appropriate for the relationship that they apply to and until you have that relationship.. it's very difficult to appreciate how many is appropriate since you only have half the equation to get your answer.  So.. I suggest that instead of making your rule book.  Maybe focus on a declaration that communicates your views on the D/s relationship and how it functions.  Maybe spend more time leaning and growing with in your understand of intimate relationship before you put forward to pen your personal declaration. 



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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Geoffozi)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 3:09:44 PM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: atypicalsub
If you expect your sub to shave legs, maintain make up, and dress classy at all times you have to allow the sub at least a few hours every day to perform these activities.  So that means a few hours each day that your sub is not available to be serving you.  Then there is also the question of your sub having the money for the clothing and make up (it costs a lot more than men every believe).



Someone has been feeding you a serious line of bullshit if you think keeping shaved, putting on makeup and dressing nice every day takes several hours a day. While it's certainly not cheap, it really doesn't have to be expensive either.

Excellent post KoM. Once again, you've typed what I was thinking, only better.


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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 3:15:17 PM   
trealeon


Posts: 180
Joined: 4/7/2007
Status: offline 		I noticed the  OP hasn't returned (or at least responded) yet. In any case, I thought about this a little more. I know with my girl, when she came and told me she wanted to go from being a "little girl" to being in more of a strict "slave/property" role, she knew that it would involve many new rules and asked for them so that she could start learning them. She was very excited about the prospect of having a set of rules and beginning training.

Even though she expected a list similar to what you have submitted here, I thought about it and went a slightly different route, mostly because I knew I couldn't cover every possible scenario that came up. What I gave her was more narrative with examples and it seemed to be an easier read for her than just a long seemingly never ending list of rules without context. It also gave her a basis to start since this was a completely new experience for her. I don't know what your history is with your sub but if this is the kind of thing both you and her want (to have a list of rules) then maybe I can share my experience with you more through collarme mail if that will help.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 3:17:49 PM   
MadRabbit


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Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: trealeon

I noticed the  OP hasn't returned (or at least responded) yet.


I won't want to talk to a bunch of fucking assholes either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: atypicalsub
If you expect your sub to shave legs, maintain make up, and dress classy at all times you have to allow the sub at least a few hours every day to perform these activities.  So that means a few hours each day that your sub is not available to be serving you.  Then there is also the question of your sub having the money for the clothing and make up (it costs a lot more than men every believe).



Someone has been feeding you a serious line of bullshit if you think keeping shaved, putting on makeup and dressing nice every day takes several hours a day. While it's certainly not cheap, it really doesn't have to be expensive either.


I would wonder if he has ever been with a woman or how many people in this thread have been in serious D/S dynamics based on the replies.

_____________________________

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The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 3:25:22 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
~ Fast Reply ~
 
From the perspective of having written out 'Rules & Rituals' (3 1/2 pages for those keeping score), living and having them in force for nearly 6 years, your missing something - a sub/slave to go through the process with you. That's half the fun!

Okay, not always 'fun' but damn near essential to the process. I think its a good idea to have an outline in mind. Research, take notes, consider all the possibilities and have them ready as a starting point, but I think it's important to go through the process as a team. The process facilitates discovery both of yourself and your partner.

It takes time and one of the things you find out though that investment of time, is how serious you both are regarding the joint responsibilities that the set of rules is documenting.

Some general thoughts...

Make the document subject to revision. beth naked, crawling around in chains, worked great in our original one bedroom closet (I mean apartment) in our current living quarters it wouldn't; bloody knees are a turn off.

Try and include some confirming ritual, perhaps something as basic as memorizing the rules.

Be as broad and specific as necessary to not set either party up for failure. Staying in contact daily is reasonable. Calling at exactly 2:15PM every day - not so much over time. A diary may be excessive, a journal is less so and serves the purpose. Going back to read beth journalizing her journey thus far is an amazing way to remember where we were and how far we've come.

Remember every responsibility and accountability you are giving your partner you are giving to yourself by way of follow up. It's as serious as you want it to be. You, as the Master, set the level of importance. A slave is human, and showing disinterest in a rule is akin to showing disinterest in them; especially at the beginning it can lead to doubt - a very bad slave mindset.

Best of luck!

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 12/3/2008 4:00:17 PM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 3:28:02 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I won't want to talk to a bunch of fucking assholes either.


You have a disarmingly charming way of putting it  .

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RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 3:32:37 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Excellent post KoM. Once again, you've typed what I was thinking, only better.



thank you...

I think that the Crazy Rabbit and Merc also provided some very positive points for the OP.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 3:33:10 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I won't want to talk to a bunch of fucking assholes either.


You have a disarmingly charming way of putting it  .


Could you contribute something informative and constructive regarding protocols and rituals to this thread or is your condescending mockery from a position of false superiority?

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 3:46:24 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Excellent post KoM. Once again, you've typed what I was thinking, only better.



thank you...

I think that the Crazy Rabbit and Merc also provided some very positive points for the OP.


Why yes they did. Your's was just the last one I read and my brain is way too fried to try multiple quote thingies.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 3:49:43 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Excellent post KoM. Once again, you've typed what I was thinking, only better.

thank you...

I think that the Crazy Rabbit and Merc also provided some very positive points for the OP.


Thanks KoM!

Wow - just went back and read the whole thread. That'll teach me to about doing a fast reply just answering the question versus getting a 'feel for the room'.

Not that it would have changed my answer, but I missed so many opportunities to exercise my sadistic sarcasm I'm angry about it. So I'll just sum them up...

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Some of the most dominant, demanding, and contrary individual personalities can be found representing themselves 'submissive' here in our dysfunctional little community known as Collar Me. Fortunately for all, there are an equal number of people representing themselves as 'dominant' ready to submit.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 4:15:20 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Rules, once internalized, don't take much energy to obey.  "Always get out of bed on the left side" is hard at first, if you always get out on the right side.  After a while... getting out on the right side would be hard to do.

After a learning curve, rules are (relatively) easy.  More difficult is to follow principles, like: "Always act in the best interest of the relationship."

If you think of a vanilla relationship, the main difference from the OP is that the rules are not written down. The couple figures out how to please each other.  The woman learns whether the guy prefers hard boiled eggs or soft boiled, what kind of clothing causes his eyes to follow her most closely, and whether he would rather she licked his knob or deepthroated him.  After a couple months, the things she knows would make a helluva long checklist.  Vice/versa with the guy.


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RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 4:28:21 PM   
esotericbabe


Posts: 8
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Status: offline 		wow.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 4:41:44 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Something to add to Mad Rabbit's awesome post; he states it takes about 21 days to learn a new habit. That's 21 days in a row. If you only see each other once every two weeks it takes a lot longer to learn. As I doubt she's going to move in with you on the first date, expecting her to never slip up is a set up for failure and an excuse to punish much more severely than is warranted.

You need to give a learning curve. The less time you spend together, the less time she practices something. If you meet once every two weeks than that 21 days is actually nearly an entire year. We've been together nearly six years, living together half that time and I still slip up occasionally on waiting for him to open my car door. Simply because we may only go out together a couple of times a week and the rest of that time I'm driving myself and opening my own doors. A rule that is opposite to daily experience is very hard to learn.

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RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 5:16:23 PM   
SassySarijane


Posts: 1558
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline 		To the OP: Rules are all well and good, but if you expect all that from the start, you are being very unrealistic. Some of your points, including some punishment ideas, are unrealistic/fantasy type in my opinion. What about getting to know someone and finding compatibility first and adding the rules a few at a time and discussing them and adjusting as necessary?

As to a lot of punishment corporal and otherwise, if you enjoy doling out spankings and such, why does it have to be as punishment or the excuse of punishment used to do it? I enjoy play, corporal, s/m, impact play very much and don't need the excuse of punishment to engage in it at all from the bottom's perspective; and those who top me enjoy the play from their side of the slash just as much.

It's really, in my opinion, about finding what works for you and the one(s) you are involved with and compatible with and it won't be the same in each relationship because of the human and individuality factors. There's no one size fits all.

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RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 5:21:47 PM   
calamitysandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Your expectations are both likely to be realistic and not realistic. 

.....

Maybe spend more time leaning and growing with in your understand of intimate relationship before you put forward to pen your personal declaration. 



Thanks, you, and Merc and Rabbit as well, just saved me a lot of writing, and put in a way much more comprehensible than I most likely would have managed.

Maybe you should regard your rules as a personal wishlist instead, learning and expanding, as well as adapting to a partner as you go along.

A relationship is formed by the people involved. Trying to fit it into an preexisting mold will be difficult. Also, it may rob you of the experience you might have if you are open about letting it evolve.

< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 12/3/2008 5:26:11 PM >

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RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 5:25:02 PM   
greeneyedreamer


Posts: 442
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline 		The thought that went into this is admirable; however I do believe the length is unrealisitic. Think of your job. Don't you just HATE those 100 page handbooks you never read? ahh I nkow I do!

Dreamer

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RE: Set of rules... - 12/3/2008 5:39:31 PM   
mc1234


Posts: 683
Joined: 10/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Well, on the face of it it looks like a list of lists........but there are loads of *rules* in my relationship that haven't been written but have become *known and imbibed* over time. These things always seem excessive when written in list form ........mine would do.

agirl


I agree.  It sounds to me like the OP is finding his way, discovering what it is he wants and how he wants to structure his D/s relationship.  I admit some of it is repetitive while other parts need some more details, but I'm assuming that this is an outline.  I'm assuming he would have conversations with a potential submissive about his expectations and not just slap this document down in front of her as others have assumed he would do.  I personally need a Dominant who knows what his expectations are and is clear in what he wants.  That's all part of the compatability conversation - what does he want, does it match with a relationship that I do well in, etc.  I've spoken with Doms who don't have a clue how to express what it is they want, who change their minds, who don't remain consistent - that to me is more of a problem than someone who knows what he wants and seeks it. 

I'm also sure the list isn't written in stone and is flexible as he gains experience. 

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 60
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