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Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 7:40:08 PM

SassySarijane

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From: KC Area Missouri
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Some recent comments got me wondering what others think. Basically comments were made that one couldn't be submissive or slave if they were independent, strong, self-reliant; that in order to be submissive or slave one must be dependent and reliant on others.

Do you believe that? Why?

Do you disagree? Why?

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 7:51:48 PM

VampiresLair

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I dont believe that at all.

Firstly, how on earth would someone like that survive while they were single? I mean honestly, not everyone pairs up right away, and those who do the best for themselves are the ones who are independent, strong and self-reliant. It seems a bit of a double standard. One would expect a female submissive to be dependent and reliant on others from day one, but a male submissive would come off as too weak to be bothered with if they showed the same behavior.

Second, any slave of mine, at the very least, has to be able to function wihtout me around at all times. I expect someone capable of being independant so I do not have to micromanage them every second of every day. I like to be able to go away and see my family wihtout having to worry about Fox for a week at a time. He chooses to be dependant on me, but if necessary he doesnt have to be. The choice is what makes it special. If he were dependant because he had to be, it would be a major drain on both of us. I dont need that sort of responsability nor do I want it.

DV

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 7:55:26 PM

heartfeltsub

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i was actually talking with a Dominant friend of mine today about this very topic. So i will be giving both His answer to this question and mine.

my answer is that i am a very self-reliant and independent woman who is also extremely submissive and have been all my life. i run my own business, travel all over the country by myself, and take care of any situations that come up as i need to. i am also very submissive to my Dominant and extremely obedient and He prefers that He doesn't "need" to take care of me all the time. He has often said that of all the people in His life, i am the most self-sufficient and He really appreciates that because i am not "needy", which to Him would be draining.

The other Dominant friend of mine that i was speaking to today about this very topic felt the same way and really appreciates that His slave is also very self-reliant and doesn't need constant taking care of. Both of the Dominants that i am speaking about are semi-fixers by nature but neither want to be a full-time fixer because of how draining they find it.

So i would strongly disagree that to be submissive one must be reliant and dependant.

heartfelt

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 8:11:00 PM

Lordandmaster

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I believe the opposite. The more capable a sub is, the more she can offer me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

Basically comments were made that one couldn't be submissive or slave if they were independent, strong, self-reliant; that in order to be submissive or slave one must be dependent and reliant on others.

Do you believe that? Why?

(in reply to SassySarijane)

Post #: 4

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 8:13:09 PM

GreedyTop

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From: Savannah, GA
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whaddaya, know, LAM.. something we agree on *grins*

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 8:36:59 PM

SassySarijane

Posts: 1558
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From: KC Area Missouri
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Thanks for the replies so far guys. I agree with the concensus so far. I am very independent and such and yet, without a doubt, I am also most definitely a submissive. I don't believe I would be able to fully serve to the best of my ability if I weren't so, you know? I know absolutely that if I were involved and it ended either through the dominant's death or a break up, that I would be able to function on my own just fine until such time as I chose to get involved again and that while in a relationship, I wouldn't need to ask the dominant about every little thing each day (if he wanted that and we agreed to it as part of the dynamic then sure, that's different) and could handle things as needed on my own except for certain things that we both would need to decide on or that were his to decide on. Make sense?

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 8:40:13 PM

GreedyTop

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makes absolute sense to me :)

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 8:40:48 PM

TigerNINTails

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Absolutely. If a girl or boy is independent, capable, smart, even a leader in their normal everyday life, the more they're able to bring to the house and relationship.

Being smart and skilled and being independent, self reliant is probably a set of qualities that should (though for some reason is not) be the most desired set of traits in a bottom, submissive and especially a slave.

It's the job of the Owner to dominate and control that slave, and sure, smart girls, capable girls and independent girls are more difficult to dominate on a purely mental level, but we're not talking pure mental here anyway. Dominants and Owners have a full arsenal of tools, and methods to manipulate and exploit in establishing dominance over their submissives and slaves, so there's no reason why being smart, capable and independent is a detriment.

We also want our girls to be able to defend themselves... To be able to stand for themselves, communicate what it is that they desire, or find distasteful as well. To be able to stop unwanted and unwarranted advances by those that they know their Dom or Owner haven't "pre-approved" to be responded to in that manner. They have to care for their Dom's and their Owner's property in the absence of that Owner after all.

It's up to their individual Owners to establish that it's their will that will be followed in their presence, or without their presence in the first place. Once a Top can establish the Dominance over the submissive/slave, then there's a following that the slave will adhere to the will of the Dom even without their presence, consistently. The Owner's will becomes the slave's will. Their independent nature becomes a tool for the Owner.

Whoever was telling you this was full of shit, excuse my language. Probably still typing, and not experiencing what real relationships are, and looking for that all elusive "door-mat" "no-limits" fantasy slut. :-)

Just my two cents or so.

Wicked Pleasures,

Master Tiger

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 8:56:29 PM

SassySarijane

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From: KC Area Missouri
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I've actually "heard" it from a few and read it in discussions and yeah, I so do not agree with their assessment at all. I feel that my strength, self reliance, independence, and intelligence and survival ability bring a lot to a relationship on the positive side and that I can contribute much more fully to the relationship and serve better because of them.

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Sarah2
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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 8:58:37 PM

daddysprop247

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From: DC Metro area
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can you be independent and self-reliant, and still be a submissive or slave? of course. does being independent and self-reliant make you a better submissive, or mean that you have more to offer? of course not. that is the politically correct and most popular viewpoint of the day (and certainly on this thread), but it is not reality. all Dominants will have their individual preferences...some find special value in a very needy, very dependent, helpless type of submissive. others find special value in a submissive who is strong and capable in the outside world, but vulnerable and subservient to them alone. neither is better or worse.

(in reply to TigerNINTails)

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 9:05:12 PM

SassySarijane

Posts: 1558
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From: KC Area Missouri
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Hey daddysprop, good to see you posting again.

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LPTnB

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 9:15:55 PM

Lashra

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I believe a submissive can be whatever they wish to be. Mine is independent and that is exactly how I want him. I do not have the time, nor the desire to micromanage him. I did that once before with my first slave many moons ago and it was like having another full time job. So for me, yes a sub/slave must be independent and capable of making decisions and standing on their own two feet.

I would never want a slave like my friend's. She was at home and the kitchen caught on fire, instead of dialing 911, she called him on his office phone and held while the place burned around her to ask him what she should do.

He told her get out and call 911 from the neighbors phone.

She said in her defense that her Master always made the decisions....

~Lashra

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 9:26:05 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Well in order to be in a relationship as a slave, yes I think you need to be dependent and reliant upon the expectations of being in that relationship. But then so does the master.

I think it's obvious that a slave CAN BE independent and self reliant and still be a great slave. Unfortunately, the kink world refuses to let go of its myth that personality = orientation and thus the more stereotypical sub personality a person has, the more sub orientation they claim or are perceived to be.

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 9:30:20 PM

marie2

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Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

Some recent comments got me wondering what others think. Basically comments were made that one couldn't be submissive or slave if they were independent, strong, self-reliant; that in order to be submissive or slave one must be dependent and reliant on others.

Do you believe that? Why?

Do you disagree? Why?

I believe that different things work for different people. Some subs like to be dependent, and some doms like that. Some do not.

Personally, I'm very INdependent and so far it hasn't kept me from being submissive in a relationship. I think a strong and self-reliant person can absolutely make an awesome sub for a dominant who wants those characteristics in a sub.

On the other hand, there are plenty of dominants out there who seek damsels in distress or whathaveyou, and I'm sure they can find plenty of those as well.

(in reply to SassySarijane)

Post #: 14

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 9:38:44 PM

MsTrees

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Joined: 12/21/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

Some recent comments got me wondering what others think. Basically comments were made that one couldn't be submissive or slave if they were independent, strong, self-reliant; that in order to be submissive or slave one must be dependent and reliant on others.

Do you believe that? Why?

Do you disagree? Why?

I am looking for exactly that. Why? Because I've already raised a child and that is not the kind of relationship I'm looking for here. (and I raised him to be independent, strong, self-reliant and if he's also able to surrender his ego and will to his counterpart, then I raised him smart too)

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Moliere

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 9:41:28 PM

TigerNINTails

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I agree with that as well daddysprop, I don't think that I intended to mean that it was "better" or "worse" in any sense, simply that a smart, capable and independent slave or submissive will tend to think on their own, thereby being beneficial to the relationship in the sense of removing micro-management from the equation. And that is more benefit than creating a situation that involves micro-management.

Now of course, I personally want to remove micro-management because I loathe it. I feel I shouldn't need to be there to give permission for every little action a slave takes. Especially in the performance of their day to day grind as it were.

I don't mind caring for, and being responsible for the slave, hell, it's a requirement of wiitwd, but to have slaves clamoring for permission for every little thing would become annoying. Also having to explain how to do something, or how I want it done more than twice is entirely too tedious. Once I speak, the slave should be listening closely enough to get it the first time, with no more than once more for any clarification or adjustment they might need.

Large decisions, of course, I have them come to me about. Other than that, they need to think for themselves. And act on those decisions. Just my preference though. I hate micro-management. Unless perhaps it's during a scene, and then it's appropriate.

Wicked Pleasures,

Master Tiger

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Consistent Discipline Renders Punishment Unnecessary

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 10:00:09 PM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
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From: DC Metro area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

Hey daddysprop, good to see you posting again.

thanks Sarijane.

(in reply to SassySarijane)

Post #: 17

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 10:00:52 PM

myotherself

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From: The cold bit of the UK
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I can really only reply from my own perspective. I'm independent - own home, car, career, friends, etc. and yet I'm submissive to the right person. I think my life experiences has made it difficult for me to submit to many people - I need my dom to be older and of a similar intellect, for example. I've always had careers that could be viewed as 'high powered' and have good managers and bad managers. The good ones tend to be older, intelligent, confident and thoughtful and they've always earned my respect and loyalty. The bad managers tend to be younger, brash, impatient, valuing style over substance. They do not inspire respect, or anything much else apart from antipathy and irritation.
So my dom really needs to fit the 'good manager' bill that works for me. I'm not trying to be age-ist or IQ-ist here, that's just the way it is for me. *shrugs*

I find it harder to give up my independence, even for a short time, to a dominant. But when I do, the feeling of release and peace is almost overwhelming, which is why I do it. As an independent woman at the beginning of a new relationship I struggle daily to hand over control of things that I think I can manage just fine. But I perservere, and eventually the headspace works for me and I'm content. It's hard work for the dominant too, but I hope that the rewards in the end are worth the struggle.

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/6/2009 11:28:40 PM

Aszhrae

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I believe a true sub/slave is one that depends upon their dominant. Reliance on their dominant for food, shelter and reward when the sub/slave improves.
To be independent there are two aspects of this:
The first aspect, at any time the dominant can decide that they no longer like the sub/slave without any responsibility for what happens to the sub/slave when they are forced to leave.
The second aspect, that the sub/slave is only portraying a role and when they decide they are no longer enjoying themselves they can choose to leave and return to their old life again.

The only time it seems when total submission is required is either in the bedroom and the dungeon. Then its just for the purpose physical gratification and the endorphin addiction for all those involved.

You asked. That is my reply.

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Goddess bless and keep you and yours safe

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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/7/2009 1:31:28 AM

susie

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FR

Well last time I checked I was a "true" submissive in a long standing M/s relationship. I have always been independent having lived and worked in the Far East and Middle East in my 20s and managed teams of people. I am now able to manage all the Finance, Admin and Marketing for Masters company. Yet I am totally submissive to him and he can make me do things I never thought I would just by his dominance. For him the fact that I am so independent and outwardly strong makes my submission to him all the more thrilling.

I have come across a couple of relationships where the sub has been totally dependent on the Dom with no outside support or means and in both of these cases the relationships appeared more abusive than D/s.

< Message edited by susie -- 1/7/2009 1:32:33 AM >

(in reply to Aszhrae)

Post #: 20

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