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RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/8/2009 7:50:01 PM

Evility

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If the property is in my home they must enter my home to steal it. If they enter my home I will not ask if they are there to steal my property. I will assume they are there to do bodily harm to me and I will use deadly force to protect myself. People often lose sight of the fact that the intruder created the situation not the homeowner.

Someday we will stop painting the criminal as the poor victim.

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 21

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/8/2009 7:54:27 PM

Termyn8or

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My statement about being desperate can apply to situations where they are forty feet away, like in the backyard stealing your lawnmower, but in the house it is over.

If you are a thief and break into a house where there are people, you expect trouble and you come prepared to deal with it. Therefore anyone actually in the house is going to see the gun once, and it will be the last thing they ever see.

Actually if not in the house, ironically I would rather give than kill. If a newbie thief convinced me that they hadn't done this before but they lost their job and their kids are starving, I would probably empty out my freezer and give them some food, send them on their way. But if in doubt, take them out. A harsh reality of life.

Sorry folks, as a member of society I am expected to consider the property rights of others, so are you.

T

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 22

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/8/2009 8:57:06 PM

OneMoreWaste

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Just something to think about:

At the end of the day, ALL laws, from mass murder to jaywalking, are ultimately enforced by the threat of deadly force, the power of the State to kill without recompense.

So if my life could be forfeit for driving 500 feet in 5.0 seconds instead of 5.6, why should I turn the other cheek on theft?

Also- a lot of people are quick to disparage "stuff".

"Stuff" you buy, for the working class, represents hours of your life. It represents the income that's left over after Uncle Sam, various insurance companies, the landlord/bank, grocery store, doctors, the electric company, and so on and so forth all take their share- it represents WHY you're dragging your ass out of bed after not enough sleep and putting up with all the shit at work. FUCK you if you think you're entitled to those hours of my life. I've got a shotgun, a shovel, and a pickup truck with a covered bed, and I say different.

< Message edited by OneMoreWaste -- 1/8/2009 9:03:44 PM >

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RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/8/2009 9:22:25 PM

Vendaval

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So what's the going rate for a used lawnmower? Or would someone just sell it for scrap metal?

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(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 24

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/8/2009 9:43:19 PM

slaveboyforyou

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I wouldn't try to intentionally kill someone to protect my property. But if I am sitting in my place; and someone kicks the door in, we will be fighting. I will use any means at my disposal to avoid being injured in that fight, including a weapon. If I happen to kill them, the guilt is not on me. If I walk out and see someone trying to steal my car, we will be fighting. Again, I will use any means at my disposal to avoid being injured, including a weapon. If I happen to kill them, the guilt is not on me. If someone tries to mug me, I will fight back. If I happen to kill them, the guilt is not on me. Yet again, I will use any means avaliable to avoid being injured in that confrontation. If that means using a weapon, I will use it.

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 25

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/8/2009 10:39:04 PM

corysub

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I agree that protecting your life and family should someone break into my home would be the first action I would take...and with deadly force. The law these days is skewed to protect the guilty and, unfortunately, homeowners who shot burglars are now serving time in prisons. The link below might be of interest and suggests that you don't want to ever wound a criminal in your home..you have to kll him or you could be sued.

http://www.rense.com/general2/burg.htm
---------------------

There is mention in the Jewish Torah about killing a stranger in your own home..permissable at night but possibly not in the daytime. Still, it is subject to interpretation depending on the sect leader as the comment below shows:
"It would appear to me that even though the sages explained the words "If the sun shone upon him" metaphorically... nevertheless, the verse does not lose its literal meaning. By day, it is not permitted to kill the robber since the robber probably meant to run away immediately. It is only a night-thief who would spend time in the house collecting a large amount of money or killing the owner of the house. He knows that the owner is in the house, and he comes to kill or be killed, while a day-thief assumes that the owner is not home, and plans on making a quick getaway.
(Ra'avad, Hil. Geneivah 9:8)"

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 26

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/9/2009 12:28:51 AM

igor2003

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I wouldn't try to intentionally kill someone to protect my property. But if I am sitting in my place; and someone kicks the door in, we will be fighting. I will use any means at my disposal to avoid being injured in that fight, including a weapon. If I happen to kill them, the guilt is not on me. If I walk out and see someone trying to steal my car, we will be fighting. Again, I will use any means at my disposal to avoid being injured, including a weapon. If I happen to kill them, the guilt is not on me. If someone tries to mug me, I will fight back. If I happen to kill them, the guilt is not on me. Yet again, I will use any means avaliable to avoid being injured in that confrontation. If that means using a weapon, I will use it.

A lot of what you have said is similar to what many others here have said, but I have to wonder, have you actually checked to see what the laws are in your state concerning "use of deadly force"? In my state (Idaho) if you actually did kill someone under most of the circumstances you describe, then you would find yourself being lead off to jail in handcuffs and probably charged with manslaughter among other things, and the guilt WOULD be on you!

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 27

RE: The use of deadly force. - 1/9/2009 12:57:23 AM

MissMorrigan

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It is a rarity for a burglar to be unarmed, they are usually tooled up and while we don't have a right to carry a firearm in this country, should someone break in I will do all that I can to remove any potential harm to myself and my babies (kitties in this instance) and I won't ask them politely to leave my property prior to putting a baseball bat round their head. The fact is, when a person breaks into your home/property you have no idea what their intentions are and I consider that a direct threat to personal safety. The very fact a burglar is tooled up suggests their intentions are to use it if they are challenged so in that situation, it's not as simple as allowing someone to go ahead and remove your valuables.

We can all guess what we'd do at any given time until it happens, and each situation is different. Suggestions of using deadly force against someone who has applied no direct threat while stealing from out-buildings, etc... is ridiculous and I'd hope that each state had fundemental laws in place to cover that.

quote:

Would I ever use deadly force if my house was broken into, probably not. I just ensure that my home and possessions are more securely kept, making it far more difficult for a home invader. If it came to a loved one, I would love to say I wouldn't hesitate though in reality I really don't know if I have that capability.

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Post #: 28

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/9/2009 1:00:04 AM

slaveboyforyou

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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

A lot of what you have said is similar to what many others here have said, but I have to wonder, have you actually checked to see what the laws are in your state concerning "use of deadly force"? In my state (Idaho) if you actually did kill someone under most of the circumstances you describe, then you would find yourself being lead off to jail in handcuffs and probably charged with manslaughter among other things, and the guilt WOULD be on you!

Yeah, I know the law in my state Igor. If I feel like my life is threatened, I am allowed to use deadly force. Like I said, I would never intentionally kill someone. I have a right under Arkansas law to stop someone from stealing my property. If they resist with violence, I have a right to protect myself. It's their problem if they get killed in the process.

About 12 years ago, we had the Rainbow people come through here. If you don't know who they are, it's essentially hippies that camp out in parks for meetings. Well, I live next to national park and a national forest. So they come here all the time. They don't bother anyone, and they are generally nice folks. Well one night, some of our local redneck kids decided to fuck with them. They went to a camp and threw rocks at a camper bus. The guy inside fired an old 12 gauge coach gun out the window, and he killed a 19 year old kid. He was not charged with anything, because he was protecting himself and his home (an old school bus converted into a camper.)

So, I am not worried. I have every right to defend myself from criminals. I don't pick fights, and I don't look for them. But I have a right to defend myself and my property. If I feel endangered during that defense, I have a right to use deadly force.

(in reply to igor2003)

Post #: 29

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/9/2009 2:01:45 AM

phoenix1heather

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I agree with most here, I believe that the use of sufficient force is necessary. Michigan has the Castle Doctrine and you are not required to retreat if you are in a place where you have a legal right to be. I do think one needs to plan carefully when venturing out in public. I do think one should be aware of everything going on around them. I do think one should go over one's home to ensure that all practicable measures have been taken to "harden" your home against unauthorized entry.

I also believe that you should practice a lot if you're going to own a gun. Break in to my home and die. Then I dial 911. I always dial 1911 first though.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 30

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/9/2009 2:52:10 AM

Evility

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Joined: 12/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
A lot of what you have said is similar to what many others here have said, but I have to wonder, have you actually checked to see what the laws are in your state concerning "use of deadly force"? In my state (Idaho) if you actually did kill someone under most of the circumstances you describe, then you would find yourself being lead off to jail in handcuffs and probably charged with manslaughter among other things, and the guilt WOULD be on you!

Note to self: Stay in Georgia.

(in reply to igor2003)

Post #: 31

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/9/2009 3:05:05 AM

SilverMark

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I am pretty sure that if you use deadly force to stop a crime that isn't life threatening....ie, stealing your lawn mower or car, you could do more time than the thief....even in Georgia. "Deadly force is generally limited to protection of life and limb, but exceptions are written for the home, auto and business. In those places, deadly force can be used to prevent a felony or if entry is made in a "violent and tumultuous manner." Of course here in our great state they are trying to expand it to include your car etc....a few more years and we'll be able to carry six shooters on our hip and have gunfights on Main Street....

(in reply to Evility)

Post #: 32

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/9/2009 3:10:35 AM

GrizzlyBear

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From: Missoula Montana
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For 15 years I taught gun safety, marksmanship, and lawful use of deadly force to civilians who wanted a concealed carry permit in my home state of Montana. I carried a gun daily for most of that time.

Laws differ from state to state as to the circumstances where use of deadly force is permissible, and if you keep or carry a deadly weapon you had better know the law in your state, or any other state where you might also carry it.

Only a few states permit use of deadly force to protect property outside the home or place of business. I believe Texas is one of them. Some states require that even in your own home you may not use deadly force if you are able to retreat. Massachusetts and New Jersey have such laws.

In the majority of states including mine, you are allowed to use deadly force only to prevent the commission of a forcible felony (defined as murder, rape, aggravated assault, or armed robbery) , or burglary or arson upon an occupied structure. Sometimes this is limited to such crimes being against the person of someone who you have a lawful duty to protect. Find out the law in YOUR state. Find out how the prosecutors interpret it.

I would recommend that you talk to a criminal defense attorney, give him a retainer, and get his opinion about those laws, if you keep loaded guns for self defense, like I do. If he has taken a retainer, he will be much more receptive when you call him from the police station after your arrest.

It is very important to note that use of deadly force is not the same as kill. The important thing is intent - a lawful use of force is intended to stop a felony. You shoot to stop, not to kill. If excessive force is used after the felony has been stopped, there will be way more than a 15 yard penalty for a late hit out of bounds.

If it can be shown in court that you possessed premeditated intent to kill anyone who broke into your house, what was an otherwise justified shooting may become the subject of a murder prosecution. It is therefore not a real good idea to state in a public forum like this one that anyone who comes into your house is dead. Hint: if they fall down, or turn and run, the threat has ended so stop shooting. If you empty the clip into them, or walk up and put a finisher between the eyes, its not going to look good at your trials.

There will probably be two, one for criminal charges, and one for the civil suit. Even if you beat the criminal charges, you will almost always be sued, and it is much easier to lose a civil trial than a criminal one. Ask OJ. Actually, there will be three, if you count the one that will take place in the media, where you will most likely be labeled as a trigger-happy killer.

By far the best bet is to not be in a situation where the need to use deadly force arises. Stay away from places where violent criminals are likely to be such as biker bars, late night stop-and-robs, or the really bad parts of town. Keep your car doors locked. Make your house hard to break into. Most especially, keep the doors locked You are much less likely to be arrested if the unarmed drunk teenager you just shot broke down the door, than if he just walked through it.because it was unlocked.

_____________________________

GrizzlyBear

"Come to the edge," he said.
They said, "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge," he said.
They came. He pushed them. And they flew.
~Guillaume Apollinaire

(in reply to phoenix1heather)

Post #: 33

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/9/2009 4:02:29 AM

Dnomyar

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This post reminds me of the time someone tried to break into my dads house in Detroit. My dad had the doors locked. The theif could not open the door so he decided to break the lock with the butt of his shotgun.The gun fired. the dumb ass shot himself in the stomac. Now the thing is if your going to break into any home you do not want to break into my dads home. He heard the noise and was sitting in a chair with his pistol waiting for the guy to come thru the door. The guy fell of the steps onto the sidewalk. My dad went out and looked at him and then walked back into the house and went to bed. Someone saw the guy the next morning laying on the sidewalk and called the cops. I think I am a lot like my dad in that respect. Im a gun nut and have a few guns the size of cannons.My friends claim that they are overkill. If you break into my house while Im home. You will die.

(in reply to GrizzlyBear)

Post #: 34

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/9/2009 4:08:17 AM

colouredin

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fr

In Britian we have the term reasonable force, i dont know if you do over there. But here during a fight for example if you exceed reasonable force you are the person taken to court. My ex for example was slapped and he then broke the other guys arm, my ex went to prison the other guy (who started the fight) didnt

If someone was stealing my property and they had a weapon I would tell them to take it, i would phone the police get a crime number and get an insurance payout. The risk of getting hurt for the sake of a few cd's isnt worth it.

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RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/9/2009 4:14:13 AM

Dnomyar

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I blame all of Americans troubles with firearms on the British. Our right to bear arms came about because of them.

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RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/9/2009 4:16:44 AM

MissMorrigan

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We didn't force you guys to turn the guns on yourselves once there were no more native American Indians.

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Post #: 37

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/9/2009 4:24:46 AM

colouredin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

I blame all of Americans troubles with firearms on the British. Our right to bear arms came about because of them.

Well there are many things that originate from other countries its individuals choice at the end of the day. We have fast food outlets from you, but I dont blame the Americans for our growing weight problem in children. Its about the society and the mentalilty of individuals.

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Post #: 38

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/9/2009 5:05:20 AM

SavageFaerie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GrizzlyBear

Only a few states permit use of deadly force to protect property outside the home or place of business. I believe Texas is one of them. Some states require that even in your own home you may not use deadly force if you are able to retreat. Massachusetts and New Jersey have such laws.

Texas is indeed one such state. Unless the law has changed.

A repossessor trying to say get a car on someone owned property, the homeower is by law allowed to shoot to kill. This goes for anything that is owned by a property owner.

Once things are sorted out if there is a death if it's determined a owner was protecting his property they are released with zero charges.

Personally I could give a damn about any property I collected, I lost many times over the years, now I can literly pack everything I own in 3 50lb or less boxes. Its certainly not worth a death, its just things.

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Post #: 39

RE: The use of dedly force. - 1/9/2009 5:19:37 AM

Crush

Posts: 1031
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Exactly right, Grizzly!

I live in Florida, USA....the "gunshine state" as some call it. We can use force, including deadly force, to prevent a forcible felony, as you detailed. (Though you left off "treason" as one of those forcible felonies!)

Would I use deadly force? You betcha, if I had to, I would. Do I ever want to have to use deadly force? Never.

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