RE: Gaza/Israel situation

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Aneirin -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 8:58:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Just out of interest, what if Israel had not been located in Palestine, what if the refugees from Europe had been given land elsewhere, say the US, and as this new country grew, it required more land, what would be the response of the US inhabitants, if they were falling prey to land grabs by another country ? I'd bet my soul that this scenario would play out almost exactly to what is happening in the Middle East. Thank you, I believe similar, and not only in the US, but anywhere else in the world. Basically what I am saying, is if anyone here was in a similar situation, what would you do, would you quietly roll over and accept your ancestral lands being taken by someone else who does not deserve them, or fight for what is yours ? Say after your land had been taken, and you had been herded into a scabby overpopulated bit of poor land, your new neighbours controlled your borders and then denied you provisions you need, including valuable and necessary medical supplies what would you do ? I find it always helps in all situations to examine a situation in a way where having got the facts, how people live from day to day, and put oneself in another person's shoes so to speak, and there examine the situation based upon your own thoughts and feelings, how one would feel, if similar things were happening to them, and around them. Never mind what we are told of situations by news organisations, they always have an agenda and without alternative accepted sources of information, the truth is impossible to verify. Are you one to take one person's word as gospel truth, or do you seek your own information, your own truth based upon the fact arrived at from many sources ? What other sources of information are coming out of Gaza, are there any blogs on the internet, as there was a popular one coming out of Baghdad during the inital phases of Saddam losing his grip ? If there are, how about listening to people on the ground, how they feel about what is happening around them. The other thing that is of concern, the US in it's seemingly overwhelming support of the Israeli, what message is that sending out to the world ? Just thinking, Palestinians are Arabs, and many Arabs follow Islam. Whoever started this mess, should we not be working to stop it, stop the killing, whether it be by accident in ''accepted casualties'', or deliberate, let's stop it, let the worlds powers fuelled by the heart of their people stop this atrocity.

KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 9:56:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57 quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD quote: ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57 During the cease fire and the rush to get aid into the strip, there was a truck full of UNIFORMS, now who wears uniforms in the Gaza strip? Do you have any links on this? here LAZY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCOxIHGk-l0 quote: So what if israel has killed 10 times or 1000000 times more of them then they have killed of her citizens. So much for basic human compassion. Israeli lives are not worth more than Palestinian lives. In the eyes of hamas YES quote: IF they keep screwing with israel I hope she kicks the CRAP out of them. She has been way to kind way too forgiving. Hmm, I wouldn't call an economic blockade kind, or carpet bombs in previous years forgiving. Carpet bombs? just what the hell is a carpet bomb? I have heard of cluster bombs , but NOT carpet bombs quote: I bet that if some one , a stranger was to walk into your home at any time they wanted to, with out your permission you would call the police or confront them. Hama's has attacked Israel time and time again, DON'T want the horns, DONT FUCK with the bull. Ironic that you put it like that, seeing as its the Israelis that are the occupiers. In your little metaphor, you should be agreeing with the Hamas side of things - they are confronting the people that have occupied their land. In reality again you are wrong , Jordan is sitting on the majoirty of disputed land, BUT because its an arab country that is denying them their land the other arabs are ok with that. you need to educate yourself. In your post, you don't comment once on Israel's use of illegal chemical weapons, or Israel's unlawful economic blockade, or Israel ignoring dozens of UN resolutions through the years, or Israel ignoring UN's call for Israel to ceasefire now, or Israel blocking media from entering Gaza. Your blind support is exactly the kind of mentality that needs to be challanged in this day and age. If this were Iran and not Israel doing this to another nation, people would be furious. are you that ignorant or are you just acting that way . illegal chem weps ? is that like your supposed carpet bombs? and in any war you BLOCKAID, you prevent your enemy from the ability to wage war! It's pretty obvious that you don't know anything about this conflict going back any further than the last two weeks. It's up to you to read up on it. Starting with Israel's economic blockade. I am always dumbfounded as to why Israel is conducting massive air strikes at a large civilian population (which is what I mean by carpet bombing) centres instead of calculated ground assaults to reign in Hamas (if that is what they're really planning to do)? Gaza's burn victims add to pressure on army over phosphorus http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5497338.ece Makes you question if Israel is deliberately targeting civilians with the use of weapons that are designed to cover an entire area and inflict maximum damage rather than going for something that offers precision in place of widespread carnage.

Aneirin -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 9:59:49 AM)
Maybe Israel is remembering the word Pogrom.

KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 10:02:01 AM)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes Israel may have to answer for war crimes. Whether this will be carried out though is uncertain. And what Israel is accused of is as follows -The Israeli military are accused of: • Using powerful shells in civilian areas which the army knew would cause large numbers of innocent casualties;• Using banned weapons such as phosphorus bombs; • Holding Palestinian families as human shields; • Attacking medical facilities, including the killing of 12 ambulance men in marked vehicles;• Killing large numbers of police who had no military role.

Blaakmaan -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 10:13:45 AM)
I wondered if and when someone would broach this topic. I looked at the threads as the fighting was raging and the deaths were multiplying, and didn't see anything. I applaud the OP for broaching the topic, and for having the courage to criticize Israel for the humanitarian outrage it is perpetrating in Gaza. It isn't self-defense to bomb urban areas and kill innocent civilians, including woman and children, but that's what Israel is doing. I think that one of the more interesting aspects of this crisis is Obama's relative silence. I know he likes to say that we only have one President at a time, but that hasn't stopped him from speaking out and making his views known on our economic crisis. On the Israeli invasion of Gaza, though, he's been mighty quiet. I'd at least hoped--if not I expected--that Obama would have a different take on this mess than his "Israel is right, the Palestinians are terrorists" predecessor, but it unfortunately appears that Obama is going to fall right in line. Disappointing, but not surprising...

JustDarkness -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 10:48:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzDesiderata quote: f it were any other nation than Israel doing this, the international condemnation would be a lot louder, and we would not have the deafening silence from the US. ORIGINAL: JustDarkness If it was any other country besides Israel that was having rockets tossed into their civilian communities for 8 years something would have been done long before this, Israel tried peace measures, removing Israelis from their home in the strip and handing it over to the palestinians, they also tried sanctions, and still the rockets kept coming, and weapons kept getting smuggled in, and now they can reach farther and do more damage, how long would you like Israel to wait, where was the UNs concern while daily life in southern Israel has been destroyed for years? Civilian casualties are never welcome, and Israel sends blanket text messages to civilians in gaza warning them of areas to stay away from and drops pamphlets, even though this makes the operations more risky for the IDF by giving Hamas a heads up on their plan, they do not want civilians involved but what choice do they have when Hamas uses them as human shields? Where is their concern for palestinians when they hide their top officials in maternity wards and stock pile their weapons in civilian neighborhoods? Egypt offered to open a refugee camp for civilians and Hamas would only allow civilians to cross if Hamas operatives were allowed also and Egypt refused....so who is to blame? You tell me. that wasn't my part you put my name too...

ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 11:46:47 AM)
"Makes you question if Israel is deliberately targeting civilians with the use of weapons that are designed to cover an entire area and inflict maximum damage rather than going for something that offers precision in place of widespread carnage. " No, if that was what Isreal was doing every Palestinian would have been killed the first afternoon...Use some common sense.

KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 12:30:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro "Makes you question if Israel is deliberately targeting civilians with the use of weapons that are designed to cover an entire area and inflict maximum damage rather than going for something that offers precision in place of widespread carnage. " No, if that was what Isreal was doing every Palestinian would have been killed the first afternoon...Use some common sense. The backlash would be too great if they did that. Use some common sense.

piratecommander -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 2:45:20 PM)
Anyone got any news on the Welsh dental mission thats now "missing" presumed blown up ? http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009/01/13/church-clinic-destroyed-in-israeli-missile-strike-91466-22683740/ I'm not a christian as anyone knows , I'm glad I'm not , it would be a religious dilemma to feel the way I do just now if I was. Pirate

piratecommander -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 2:55:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan I'd at least hoped--if not I expected--that Obama would have a different take on this mess than his "Israel is right, the Palestinians are terrorists" predecessor, but it unfortunately appears that Obama is going to fall right in line. Disappointing, but not surprising... Time alone will tell (if there is enough) what Obama will do.This current bloodshed is on Bush's C.V. Pirate

RealityLicks -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 3:26:28 PM)
Thanks for the link. If the facts are correct, this rather gives the lie to IDF claims that they are only hitting targets where rockets are launched. If they truly believed Hamas militants were present, what would be the point of telephoning in advance; allowing them to evacuate their weapons?A pattern is emerging of attacking medical facilities and personnel, perhaps that's what has prompted the Red Cross to raise a rare objection. While the US is blind to the truth, it seems set to intensify.

piratecommander -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 3:49:01 PM)
I don't know if the facts are correct because I wasn't there , but this is on national news here , the sources are all very reputable. I would prefer if it was not true , the problem is that press are being excluded so confirmation may take time (time to "forget" ?).That the press are being excluded suddenly made me think long and hard of times past and lessons learned Pirate

Mercnbeth -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 4:22:47 PM)
You know, it seems to me that again, people are missing the issue. Sure, every Hamas rocket is aimed at civilians, but the reason is that they don't have a good delivery system that can reach further into military targets in Israel. It's also unfair that Israel has developed an early warning system to make the rockets very ineffective. It causes them to use their other delivery system, strapping bombs to their own people, sometimes woman and children. The solution is obvious; provide Hamas, with an up to day weapons delivery system; and maybe a small nuke or two. It would finally put a stop to the endless juvenile name calling and finger pointing of who killed whose children first. Although adding more martyrs may cause another problem. Based upon what one is getting on Ebay - 'virgins' in the afterlife must be getting scarce!

Aneirin -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 5:13:28 PM)
Could it be that given there are no means of independant reporting of truth, Israel is getting away with murder ? And when the dust has died down, the final solution, end game has been committed, and it is found that Israel is guilty of many crimes, what will happen, since the deed is done. Whatever is done to Israel beyond a slap on the wrist by world condemnation, it will not bring back innocent lives spent. Do you think Israel can weather the storm of international words, I am sure they have considered it, but believe their allies will hold true, perhaps even a pat on the back for services due. This atrocity stinks so much, if it was not happening between Israel and Palestine, would it be of interest to the rest of the world , Georgia for example ?

ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 6:05:03 PM)
What sort of Backlash, kained? Being denounced in the media? They already are...You are pretending they are doing that. Why the need for all the wild rhetoric kained? Carpet bombing, Chemical weopons, maximum damage on Civilians, ect. Falsely claiming legitimate media? Other than an agenda on your part, why make up stuff like that?

Aneirin -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 6:14:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro What sort of Backlash, kained? Being denounced in the media? They already are...You are pretending they are doing that. Why the need for all the wild rhetoric kained? Carpet bombing, Chemical weopons, maximum damage on Civilians, ect. Falsely claiming legitimate media? Other than an agenda on your part, why make up stuff like that? Just a note, you directed this posting to me, I am not KaineD, though I feel he is not wholly incorrect in his words, in fact, I commend him for bringing this subject up, for it has amazed me that this subject has been silent for so long.

ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 6:30:03 PM)
Gee Anerin, I figured, since I used his name, it would be clear. It hasn't been silent. Agenda driven people have been telling similar lies about Isreal for a long time. And the same folks ignore or excuse the carnage in Georgia, Tibet, Congo, Somalia, ect. Why do you all do that?

Aneirin -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 6:37:42 PM)
One day, I hope the truth will be known about all things, then those with agenda can rejoice or lick their wounds, but until truth is known, people can only apply their understanding to the things that they see. It interests me, why it is that Israel will not let international journalists into Gaza, can you give a good reason for that, other than Israel actually cares about the health, welfare and safety of people whose job and conscience it is to report on the things they see ? Is Israel caring, or hiding ?

beargonewild -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 6:38:12 PM)
Maybe it'll be more correct to say that it's the media who is feeding these lies to the rest of the world? We all know that the media is never unbiased when they report the activities in a war torn country, whether it's the Middle East, Georgia, South Africa, Northern Ireland and others. I mean, how many times has the news reported a story which tells the story from both sides in a semi accurate sense? Seems to me that the news reporting usually biased towards their country of origin.

Aneirin -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/13/2009 6:43:48 PM)
Media always has agenda, it is what motivates them and keeps their readership, but as to the Gaza situation, if journalists were in there, the agenda might differ, many reports may become available and there we might actually be able to glean a more accurate report on the situation based upon the median of what is said.

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