RE: Gaza/Israel situation (Full Version)

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MissSepphora1 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/14/2009 2:09:22 PM)

djgr75:

I would be more willing to believe your post, and be somewhat sympathetic to the people of Gaza, except for one simple fact.  Where are the leaders of Hamas right now?  Are they fighting the war, or are they holed up underground waiting for it to be over, so they can "magically" appear alive and state that they have survived, Israel cannot defeat them, and they have won.
No matter how many civilians die, if the Hamas leaders live, they will claim victory.

They are trying to garner support for their cause by showing that women and children are dying to Israel.  But those same children will be used as suicide bombers to the cause if given half the chance. 

I am for neither side in this conflict.  I think everything that Israel does is wrong also.  To see either side glorified disgusts me.



ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/14/2009 2:14:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I've yet to see any substantial proof that Hamas use human shields.  At this point its simply a claim by the IDF.
Do you deny that Hamas launches rockets from civilain neighborhoods?




I think thats playing loose with the defination of "human shields".  Did you know that the Gaza strip is one of the most densely populated places in the world?


Do you know, I have a zit on my left ass cheek. Does that mean I shouldn't pop it ?



philosophy -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/14/2009 2:14:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

Almost every day innocent women and children are killed by terrorists blowing themselves up in markets in Iraq...no outrage???  Is it because the bombers are doing the work of Allah?


...yup, that is outrageous. Mind you, so is blowing up a UN school. Or is that ok because they are doing the work of Jehovah?
Keep on casting this as a religious war. That will make sure it carries on for a good long while. It's a resource war....the religion of the various participants is merely an easy (and misleading) label.



piratecommander -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/14/2009 2:19:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

the religion of the various participants is merely an easy (and misleading) label.



Something of a smokescreen ?

Pirate



KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/14/2009 2:34:34 PM)

One thing that hasn't really been addressed in this topic is, what's going to happen when the dust settles?

Setting aside all the other reasons why this war and what Israel and Hamas are doing is wrong, what about when things eventually calm down again?

What if Israel does finish off Hamas?   Will Israel legitimize more checkpoints, build more walls, take more land, and who knows, a few more settlements on the West Bank for good measure?  They'll be dealing with a people that hate them more than ever, thanks to these current attacks.  And Hamas will leave a power vacuum behind, perhaps to be filled with even more extremist elements than before.  And if Israel doesn't quite finish off Hamas, Hamas will use the current attacks as an incredible recruitment drive.

The government of Israel are making things worse for themselves in the long run.



MissSepphora1 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/14/2009 2:39:57 PM)

You assume that Muslims do not hate Israel as much as they can already.  Which, I believe, they do.  They already want Israel wiped off the face of the Earth.  Where can they go from there? 


quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

One thing that hasn't really been addressed in this topic is, what's going to happen when the dust settles?

Setting aside all the other reasons why this war and what Israel and Hamas are doing is wrong, what about when things eventually calm down again?

What if Israel does finish off Hamas?   Will Israel legitimize more checkpoints, build more walls, take more land, and who knows, a few more settlements on the West Bank for good measure?  They'll be dealing with a people that hate them more than ever, thanks to these current attacks.  And Hamas will leave a power vacuum behind, perhaps to be filled with even more extremist elements than before.  And if Israel doesn't quite finish off Hamas, Hamas will use the current attacks as an incredible recruitment drive.

The government of Israel are making things worse for themselves in the long run.



KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/14/2009 2:47:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

You assume that Muslims do not hate Israel as much as they can already.  Which, I believe, they do.  They already want Israel wiped off the face of the Earth.  Where can they go from there?


More moderate Hamas members have been to Egypt recently for negotiations but the longer this goes on the less likely it is anyone will be left in Gaza that will want to negotiate.



MissSepphora1 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/14/2009 3:00:53 PM)

I was going to say something totally smart ass there.  I caught myself, and refrained.  I amaze myself sometimes.



philosophy -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/14/2009 3:46:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1
You assume that Muslims do not hate Israel as much as they can already.  Which, I believe, they do.  They already want Israel wiped off the face of the Earth.  Where can they go from there? 


.....generalise much? All muslims? Really? Don't some Muslims accept the right of the State of Israel to exist? Or don't they count?

i alluded to this earlier, but i'll say it again.......this is not a religious war.

It is a war over resources, a war over land, access to water and similar.
Those who keep mischaracterising it as a religious war are, at least partially, responsible for continuing it. It's just propaganda. Stop it.



MissSepphora1 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/14/2009 4:08:40 PM)

And how many Arabs do you know and have contact with on a regular basis?

And I did not say ALL Muslims.  But show me one Arab or Muslim country that does not have a charter that wishes for the destruction of Israel, or is not on the US payroll.



philosophy -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/14/2009 4:30:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

And how many Arabs do you know and have contact with on a regular basis?


...nowadays? Just a couple. Knew a shed load more back in the UK.  

quote:

And I did not say ALL Muslims.


...no, neither did you say some. In fact what you said was 'Muslims', no qualifier whatsoever. Grammatically that was synonymous with 'all'.

quote:

But show me one Arab or Muslim country that does not have a charter that wishes for the destruction of Israel, or is not on the US payroll.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_Muslim_countries

...here's a list of countries where the majority of people are Muslims. i think you'd be astounded how many of them couldn't give a shit one way or the other about Israel. Many of Israel's neighbours don't recognise Israel, but that's sod all to do with religion and an awful lot to do with geography.

THIS ISRAELI/PALESTINIAN CONFLICT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION. Stop trying to characterise it as such.



KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 8:07:07 AM)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7828536.stm

Israelis 'shot at fleeing Gazans'



piratecommander -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 8:50:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

And I did not say ALL Muslims.



You did not say that specifically,I agree,but having no religious alliegiance whatever in this matter,I interpreted it to mean that,so for me,it helps to understand that your views now are that you have not made that response.

I agree with philosophy that this is not a religious war,but differ in thinking that those mischaracterising it as such are MORE than partially responsible for it's continuation and by extension ....... the slaughter.

Pirate



JustDarkness -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 8:51:03 AM)

Do we really think war is following rules?
Can't remember a war where people did follow them.
From both sides....even those we see as "good" we can expect terrible things



Sanity -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 9:02:22 AM)


From the article you linked to:


quote:

B'tselem said it had been unable to corroborate the testimony it had received, but felt it should be made public.



The BBC is as bad as the New York Times - they'll report anything as "news" so long as it fits their hard left agenda.







KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 10:33:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


From the article you linked to:


quote:

B'tselem said it had been unable to corroborate the testimony it had received, but felt it should be made public.


The BBC is as bad as the New York Times - they'll report anything as "news" so long as it fits their hard left agenda.







Do you have anything substantial to show that the BBC has a "hard left agenda"?



KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 10:34:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

Do we really think war is following rules?
Can't remember a war where people did follow them.
From both sides....even those we see as "good" we can expect terrible things



Part of the reason the rules are in place is so we can tell the good guys from the bad guys.

If Israeli soldiers are truely shooting civilians in the back, then that's definately bad.  If only Israel weren't barring the free media from entering Gaza we could get a better look inside Gaza.



piratecommander -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 10:55:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


From the article you linked to:


quote:

B'tselem said it had been unable to corroborate the testimony it had received, but felt it should be made public.


The BBC is as bad as the New York Times - they'll report anything as "news" so long as it fits their hard left agenda.







Do you have anything substantial to show that the BBC has a "hard left agenda"?



Fuck me KaineD ..... if the Beeb is "hard left" , why the fuck does it get all the royal exclusives ? I think that constitutes something substantial to show that it is NOT ..... how about you ?

Pirate

(not that I would wish to court a treason charge)
these comments are made without predjudice and purely for the purpose of debate

[does this help anyone?]




JustDarkness -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 11:03:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

Part of the reason the rules are in place is so we can tell the good guys from the bad guys.

If Israeli soldiers are truely shooting civilians in the back, then that's definately bad.  If only Israel weren't barring the free media from entering Gaza we could get a better look inside Gaza.


Agree....but afther years of bombings in ISrael..of discotheks and busses..where kids died...it is hard..not to hate your enemy. Rules fade...
(this hate is explainable for both sides ofcourse)



FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 11:12:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

Part of the reason the rules are in place is so we can tell the good guys from the bad guys.

If Israeli soldiers are truely shooting civilians in the back, then that's definately bad.  If only Israel weren't barring the free media from entering Gaza we could get a better look inside Gaza.

You are part of the Hamas (dis)information warfare effort.

The story you linked to does a few things:

1.  Gives credance to the claim that the BBC is slanted towards the Palestinians and Hamas, and hostile to Israel,

2.  Give further airing to a well written piece of propaganda that I have little doubt was conceived of, and written with the assistance of Hamas operatives.

There is not a single fact that substantiates any misconduct on the part of the IDF.  There are, however, several clear moral attacks on them, and it's all cloaked in a "respectable" news delivery source. 

This propaganda is part of a well designed, long term plan to push as much doubt onto the efforts of Israel to defend itself as possible, on the theory that many people will conclude "where there's smoke there's fire", and further damage Israel's standing, and ability to defend itself.

You are obviously also part of this well-coordinated effort.

Whether you are simply a "poleznye idioty" or a willing source, I don't know.  I suspect more of a "poleznye idioty" than anything else, otherwise all of the VERY obvious falsehoods you are espousing would have been better camouflaged.  

Then again ... "the big lie" is a good technique as well ...

Firm

PS.  I hate to say that I agree with Hippiekinster about anything, but everything he has said in the thread, I am 100% in agreement with.

Has hell frozen over yet?  [:D]



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