RE: Gaza/Israel situation

RE: Gaza/Israel situation (Full Version)

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Archer -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 11:23:53 AM)
OK I'll ceade that IDF has issued and used WP in this conflict the thing you have not done is prove that they used it in an illegal manner. Casualties from burns don't prove the intent. One legitimate use of WP in War is to create a smoke screen, so that you can move troops without them being subject to aimed fire. It's been used that way for over a century. A WP Bomb is a smoke bomb and has the legitimate use of creating a large wall of smoke to conceal movement of troops. It is not a "weapon" because it is not aimed at troops, but rather aimed short of the folks you want blinded to the movement. Same purpose for Tank shells and hand grenades with WP. Their existence and deployment do not constitute anything illegal. So unless you have IDF reports that they fired an artillary mission that is commonly called a "shake and bake" (mixed HE and WP artillary shells) or you have IDF forces who say the air bursts were intentional to rain fire down rather than to screen movement of troops, gone wrong, you have no case for the charge that they are using them illegally. Provide such a witness who has direct knowledge of the intent and maybe I'll buy that some troops have used WP illegally. DU Du is not illegal, there are opinion papers that make a case for it, but again the intent has to be proven. DU is not used for it's toxic qualities the toxic qualities are a side issue. DU is used because it is very dense and thus works very well to transfer kinetic energy. The Intent is to use the kinetic energy. If you are going to try to make a case for illegal use of chemical weapons you might want to bone up on the general concept of what they are.

ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 11:37:13 AM)
I keep saying this but no one will actually adress it. If Isreal hated the Palestinains, they would all be dead. In one day. They have that power. If any nation tried to intervene, they could nuke them. They could within about an hour and a half after deciding to do so, wipe out the Arab and Persian world. If Isreal wanted to carpet bomb Gaza, it could. According to that BBC article, Hamas is not respecting the daily 3 hour lull so civilians can get food, medicine or out of active fighting zones. Isreal is going to shoot back when shot at. And the civilian trying to get his mothers heart medicine, is caught in crossfire, of Hamas' time and choosing. I would imagine since he is trusting the Isrealis he would be considered a "collaborator". Does your knowledge of the Palestinian struggle include what happens to "collaborators"? They are killed with out trial. Hamas started this. Hamas claims the right to fight this war. Kained, if you follow through the links on your BBS site , everyone of them notes that Hamas was tunnelling into Isreal, a massive violation of the ceasefire, and International law. Isreal responded pinpoint, and hurt no civilians. Hamas started launching a barrage of rockets. Hamas choose the time, why didn't it stock its people with food and medicine? From now on Isreal will shoot back when shot at. Period. Seriuosly, can anyone give and explain how Hamas can be using a strategy other than trying to make the Palestinian people suffer as much as possible, in order to gain sympathy? They have no millitatry chance at all. Zero. They started a war they can't possibly win. What could their strategy be? The only possible win (that I can see, please give me real answers if there are more) they could get is if they make Isreal look so bad the UN decides to eliminate them. All the money spent on bombs could have been spent improving the lives of the Palestinian people. It wasn't. Another possible scenario is that Hamas is working for Iran, and just causing chaos in the region to cover something Iran wants, using the suffering of the Palestinian people as a tool. A few posters have said something to the effect of Isreal will be in a worse place after the dust settles. Only if they lose. Then they are gone. Where are they suppossed to go? The Iranian Jews? the Iraqi Jews? The Somali Jews? The mixed ethnic Jews? The Europeon Jews? Isreals back is against the wall in this. Ending a fight with a broken nose and a missing eye is far better than dying.

KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 11:38:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD Part of the reason the rules are in place is so we can tell the good guys from the bad guys. If Israeli soldiers are truely shooting civilians in the back, then that's definately bad. If only Israel weren't barring the free media from entering Gaza we could get a better look inside Gaza. You are part of the Hamas (dis)information warfare effort. The story you linked to does a few things: 1. Gives credance to the claim that the BBC is slanted towards the Palestinians and Hamas, and hostile to Israel, So any news article critical of Israel is hostile to Israel? quote: 2. Give further airing to a well written piece of propaganda that I have little doubt was conceived of, and written with the assistance of Hamas operatives. You have absolutely zero basis for this. It would be kinda tricky for Hamas operatives to work with the BBC on news articiles seeing as the BBC isn't even allowed into Gaza. Do you have anything of substance to add?

piratecommander -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 11:39:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY good guys from the bad guys. If Israeli soldiers are truely shooting civilians in the back, then that's definately bad the BBC is slanted towards the Palestinians and Hamas Good guys from bad ? I didn't spot any good guys so far apart from the in vain humanitarian efforts by multiple agencies (one local to me still "missing") Shooting anyone of any age or status in the back happens in wars,whilst it is "bad",war begets it,so I guess you are saying that WAR is bad? the BBC is slanted towards WHAT !!!!!! you are having a Giraffe surely ? Pirate (Giraffe translates as "laugh" ie : surely youre making a joke here?/you cannot be serious?)

Sanity -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 11:39:24 AM)
WP is legal against weapons caches and fuel dumps, but it doesn't provide very good smoke. They have smoke shells for that. I'm a former Forward Observer... I know a little about this.

Archer -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 11:45:00 AM)
Because it comes up first on Wiki Under Artillary Shells Smoke The smoke shell is designed to create a smokescreen. The main types are bursting (usually filled with white phosphorus, WP) and base ejection (a shell which scatters smoke grenades). As a former Tanker I know that our SMOKE rounds were WP.

ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 11:45:29 AM)
"You have absolutely zero basis for this. It would be kinda tricky for Hamas operatives to work with the BBC on news articiles seeing as the BBC isn't even allowed into Gaza. Do you have anything of substance to add? " Come on Kained, you don't think Hamas has members outside of the borders of Gaza? You previously mentioned that some were in Egypt. And they are holding talks in Damascus also. They certainly have people not inside Gaza, and in places where the BBC can operate. I see no substance in your reasoning. At least try...

KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 11:51:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro I keep saying this but no one will actually adress it. If Isreal hated the Palestinains, they would all be dead. In one day. They have that power. If any nation tried to intervene, they could nuke them. They could within about an hour and a half after deciding to do so, wipe out the Arab and Persian world. If Isreal wanted to carpet bomb Gaza, it could. I addressed it. quote: Hamas started this. Hamas claims the right to fight this war. Kained, if you follow through the links on your BBS site , everyone of them notes that Hamas was tunnelling into Isreal, a massive violation of the ceasefire, and International law. Are you kidding me? I repeatidly told you to read the whole article, I even bolded the parts I wanted you to look at, and it still seems you haven't done so. Did your eyes sort of glaze over when the BBS site quoted sources that said Israel were sporadically bombing Gaza BEFORE the tunnelling event? Either read the parts I BOLDED for you, or don't mention the BBS link again. quote: Seriuosly, can anyone give and explain how Hamas can be using a strategy other than trying to make the Palestinian people suffer as much as possible, in order to gain sympathy? They have no millitatry chance at all. Zero. They started a war they can't possibly win. What could their strategy be? Did the IRA ever stand a chance against Britain? Did the Native Americans ever stand a chance against the colonists? People fight because they feel they have to. Having your land unlawfully taken from you kind of has a habit of doing that through history. If you want to blame someone for making the Palestinian people suffer, blame the Israeli government and its unlawful economic blockade of Gaza for the last 2 years, not to mention their current lack of concern for civilians. quote: The only possible win (that I can see, please give me real answers if there are more) they could get is if they make Isreal look so bad the UN decides to eliminate them. All the money spent on bombs could have been spent improving the lives of the Palestinian people. It wasn't. Another possible scenario is that Hamas is working for Iran, and just causing chaos in the region to cover something Iran wants, using the suffering of the Palestinian people as a tool. They're home made rockets, Hamas aren't using multi-million dollar weapons. Again, if you actually bother to research the conflict, Gaza is in such abject poverty because the Israeli government made it that way. quote: A few posters have said something to the effect of Isreal will be in a worse place after the dust settles. Only if they lose. Then they are gone. Where are they suppossed to go? The Iranian Jews? the Iraqi Jews? The Somali Jews? The mixed ethnic Jews? The Europeon Jews? Isreals back is against the wall in this. Ending a fight with a broken nose and a missing eye is far better than dying. They could work with the Palestinian people to give them a state of their own. Instead, they'd rather kill hundreds of people in a futile attempt to destroy terrorism. Terrorism cannot be destroyed physically. In fact the only way to do that would be to eliminate EVERYONE in Gaza. If Israel put as much effort into a peace process as they do into their powerful military, there would probably be peace right now. If Israel are the good guys here, why are they blocking the media from entering Gaza? Why the economic blockade and failure to adhere to ceasefire conditions?

KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 11:54:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro Come on Kained, you don't think Hamas has members outside of the borders of Gaza? You previously mentioned that some were in Egypt. And they are holding talks in Damascus also. They certainly have people not inside Gaza, and in places where the BBC can operate. I see no substance in your reasoning. At least try... Gaza operatives are not working with the BBC. Full stop. If you or anyone else believes they are, please post the proof.

Archer -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 11:54:09 AM)
Since you mentioned the better smoke available with another form of Smoke Round for artillary shells, I checked the other type the Base Ejection of multiple smoke grenades. Found this little jewel and I would be willing to be good money that if they used the base eject models in Gaza then the chemical weapons bullshit would be just as high due to the following: Screening smoke grenades usually contain HC (hexachloroethane/zinc) smoke mixture or TA (terephthalic acid) smoke mixture. HC smoke is harmful to breathe, since it contains hydrochloric acid.

Archer -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 11:58:23 AM)
The Palastinian people already have an Arab State in part of the land known formerly as Palastine, Jordon was carved out of Palastine when Isreal was created.

ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 12:05:55 PM)
We are still waiting for proof of using chemical weopons on civilians ala Saddam Hussein and the Carpet Bombing of Gaza. And that Isreal broke the cease fire....It would be very easy to find a low credibility web site that makes the claim or simply post a definition of "propaganda". Which is your apperant standard of evidence....

Owner59 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 12:12:49 PM)
Israel shells Gaza U.N. warehouse, hospital, media offices http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090115/wl_mcclatchy/3145540

KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 12:13:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro We are still waiting for proof of using chemical weopons on civilians ala Saddam Hussein and the Carpet Bombing of Gaza. And that Isreal broke the cease fire....It would be very easy to find a low credibility web site that makes the claim or simply post a definition of "propaganda". Which is your apperant standard of evidence.... You're always trying to put the onus on me to post links and evidence, which I've done a lot of, without ever addressing them in any effective way or posting any proof of your own. I already posted a CNN video talking about who broke the ceasefire, I'll post it again in case you didn't catch it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4 Anyway, here is a CNN video talking about a UN building catching fire, and the illegal use of white phosphorus in built up civilian areas. http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/01/15/bpr.un.in.crossfire.ging.cnn Oh gosh, maybe thats a Hamas member he's talking to!

ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 12:15:00 PM)
Gaza operatives are not working with the BBC. Full stop. If you or anyone else believes they are, please post the proof. Whats a Gaza operative? You mean Hamas? Hamas leaders do interveiws with BBC. BBC has quotes from them. BBC is covering the talks in Egypt. BBC gives figures from many institutions in Gaza (run by Hamas) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7831870.stm That is so easy to find it is kind of silly to have to point it out.

KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 12:20:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro Gaza operatives are not working with the BBC. Full stop. If you or anyone else believes they are, please post the proof. Whats a Gaza operative? You mean Hamas? Hamas leaders do interveiws with BBC. BBC has quotes from them. BBC is covering the talks in Egypt. BBC gives figures from many institutions in Gaza (run by Hamas) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7831870.stm That is so easy to find it is kind of silly to have to point it out. A poster made the claim that Hamas are assisting the BBC write their articles. Is this something you agree with? If so, can you back it up? It sort of seems to me like you're pretending we're talking about one thing, in order to sidestep actually dealing with what we're actually talking about. Nobody is saying the BBC doesn't interview Hamas. What is up for debate, it seems, is whether the BBC is actively writing propeganda with the assistance of Hamas.

Owner59 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 12:29:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD quote: ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro Gaza operatives are not working with the BBC. Full stop. If you or anyone else believes they are, please post the proof. Whats a Gaza operative? You mean Hamas? Hamas leaders do interveiws with BBC. BBC has quotes from them. BBC is covering the talks in Egypt. BBC gives figures from many institutions in Gaza (run by Hamas) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7831870.stm That is so easy to find it is kind of silly to have to point it out. A poster made the claim that Hamas are assisting the BBC write their articles. Is this something you agree with? If so, can you back it up? It sort of seems to me like you're pretending we're talking about one thing, in order to sidestep actually dealing with what we're actually talking about. Nobody is saying the BBC doesn't interview Hamas. What is up for debate, it seems, is whether the BBC is actively writing propeganda with the assistance of Hamas. I think the effort is to blur the distinctions (and confuse the debate). The Arabs are to have no legitimacy at all. They are to be de-humanized and cast off with no real consideration . They are automatically to blame for the chicken and the egg that came before it and will never get a fair shake,by some. There`s not a poster on this board who would accept the raw that deal the Palestinians got,no matter what the spin. Anyone who thinks they would,sent me the deed to your home,we`ll say god proclaimed it and call it even.[8\|]

ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 12:31:51 PM)
No, he said, "Give further airing to a well written piece of propaganda that I have little doubt was conceived of, and written with the assistance of Hamas operatives." I don't know what you are trying to change it to. Interesting video. so 3rd hand accounts of WP being used illegally. I missed the telltale white smoke from the phosphourus fires though. Why wasn't that in the video. The fire was black smoke. I also noticed an amazing amount buildings still standing for an area that has been carpet bombed....

FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 12:32:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD quote: 2. Give further airing to a well written piece of propaganda that I have little doubt was conceived of, and written with the assistance of Hamas operatives. You have absolutely zero basis for this. It would be kinda tricky for Hamas operatives to work with the BBC on news articiles seeing as the BBC isn't even allowed into Gaza. Do you have anything of substance to add? From your own source: BBC journalists in Gaza and Israel have compiled detailed accounts of the claims. ... Research and reporting by Hamada Abu Qammar in Gaza and Heather Sharp, Fouad Abu Ghosh and Raya el-Din in Jerusalem From the BBC's own website: Reporting from Gaza by James Stephenson 6 Jan 09, 10:31 AM The BBC is lucky to have two outstanding producers in our Gaza office, Rushdi Abu Alouf and Hamada Abuqammar. . From a website which chronicles some of the "Beebs" problems: Yet again, journalistic professionalism is thrown out of the window in the BBC's desperate attempts to attack and sully Israel. A story claiming that IDF soldiers have fired on Gaza civilians attempting to leave their homes - in some cases carrying white flags - is based on totally unverifiable and unsubstantiated claims. The article states that "BBC journalists in Gaza and Israel have compiled detailed accounts of the claims." Who are these BBC journalists in Gaza? On the basis that foreign press have not been allowed access to Gaza, one can only assume that these supposedly neutral observers are, in fact, Palestinians. This seems to be confirmed by a footnote in the story: "Research and reporting by Hamada Abu Qammar in Gaza and Heather Sharp, Fouad Abu Ghosh and Raya el-Din in Jerusalem." So the BBC is relying on a Palestinian 'journalist' and Palestinian 'eyewitnesses' in Gaza along with others who are nowhere near the conflict zone. This form of agenda-driven reporting sees the BBC sinking to new moral lows. And if you wish even more proof, Google the stories that the BBC's man in Gaza has written before. Any half way intelligent, honest person can see the slant. [:D] Firm edited [sm=modxiiswatching.gif]

beargonewild -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/15/2009 12:36:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch Yes, because Native Americans on reservations all over the country are tossing rockets at US civilians as we speak. They are in the same situation, they are a country within a country and dependent on the United States. There are at least two differences, 1). They aren't Islamic and therefore they don't feel the need to be at war 24/7 with any neighbour not already under islamic law. 2). They know we'd kick their asses if they attempted any of that bullshit (and that would only require the FBI, much less our military). Israel hasn't grown it took land that was of strategic value to the enemy during a war it did not start. It gave a bunch of that land back recently and that show of weakness has had the predictable effect. Ahhh...so in other words, whoever has the biggest and most weapons justifies the actions whether it's right or wrong? Just a worldwide version of school yard bullying in a sense. Did you ever stop to think that with the Native Americans and Native Canadians, they used their brains and they infiltrated the system and then used that knowledge against us for the purpose to correct a wring that was dealt to their nation hundreds of years ago?

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