corysub
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quote:
ORIGINAL: samboct
"1. Al Qaeda lying...not a hard one to believe. However, Gitmo is not the "recruiting tool". The hatred these folk have for America, our way of life, our support of a free Israel and, most importantly, their radical muslim theology that indoctrinates school age youngsters has a lot more to do with the rise of terrorist muslim groups like Al Qaeda than the "Four Seasons Hotel" in Cuba known as Gitmo. There was no Gitmo prior to 9/11 and radical muslims were growing in strength for decades aided by Iran, Syria and in many cases it seems, by Saudi Arabia and others."
Hmm, Gitmo not a recruiting tool....
1) Why have we met such resistance in Iraq if we're the supposed liberators?
2) Why have opinion polls in Iraq of the US showed a steep decline over time? Maybe torturing innocents has something to do with it?
3) Go back and read some history about the cold war. Try Postwar by Tony Judt. Clearly the Soviet Union's and other Communist countries gulags, torture, and secret police had nothing to do with their people wanting to flee to the West. That was another battle for hearts and minds- and it's clear that we've either lost or are losing it with the Iraqis. I'm not sure it was ever winnable in the first place though- or why it was worth trying, but we've done a half ass job of it in any case. The sheer volume of incompetence of the Bush administration is boggling- they couldn't do anything right.
Sam
Sam, you raise some valid points to a degree.
1. We were greeted as "liberators" initially. The people were jubilant...well the Shia' were jubilant... and american troops were greeted warmly as they rolled across the land. Where we did mess up was in disbanding the Iraqi army and sending all those men back home in disgrace and also in possession of a lot of weaponry. After the museums were raided and the palaces sacked the vendetta's started. Years of brutality by the Sadaam regime was countered by equally violent brutality of Shia' agains Sunni...fueld by Al Quaeda blowing up mosque's and killing innocents in marketplaces. The Iranian influence gained in strength as well as the sohpistication of what started out as crude IED"s became high powered demolitions capable of turning over a tank.
American public opinon was positive for Bush, the agressive interogation techniques used and if there was any dissent it was muted. As the war between the sects grew more violent, as american casualties were counted every day on CNN and MSNBC et al, as Harry Reid and Pelosi were hysterically commenting that we were in the midst of a civil war, that all was lost, public opinion changed. Obama ran on a platform of one issue..."get out of Iraq". If you want to look at the reason for the decline in public opinion in favor of the war I think you should look at the daily casualty count and number of days counted off since "Mission accomplished".
American don't have a heart for protracted wars...we like to go in..wipe out the enemy and go home as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, that attitude doesn't work well against a world-wide terrorist movement that has hijacked a peaceful religion.
Remember too, the only positive in the eyes of the democrat core Obama had over Hillary was her vote FOR the war based on what she knew at the time...and everyone else for that matter...while Barry was voting present in Illinois. He was "against the war" but he had no responsibility to vote, no political pressure...his only political consideration at the time was being re-elected in his own Senatorial District. And we get a taste of that district from the teaching of old Rev. Wright. Knowing the man Obama..even as poorly as we all do today, do you honestly think he would not have voted as Hillary did...or Daschle, Kerry, Feinstein and 73 other senators?
As far as the cold war, Tom, I don't have to read history. It was during my lifetime.
I remember ducking under desks in practice atom bomb attacks. I don't understand the point about gulags, torture, etc having nothing to do with the people wanting to flee to the west? I do remember people being shot trying to scale the Berlin wall, or the successful attempt of a small group in driving a beetle across the border. Freedom is why they fled to the west. Freedom from a government that told you what was best for you, that expected each person to give back according to his talents, a government that controlled the wealth of the country with spies on every block and in every family, and those were the lucky ones who lived in the U.S.S.R. People in the satellite countries were kept with a boot on their necks. Any attempt at freeing oneself from the yolk of totalitarion dictarship was crushed as the Hungarians witnessed.
I keep hearing this attack on the competence of the Bush administration and old GW being blamed for everything but bird flu. You do remember the terror of 9/11, you do remember the fear that gripped the country at the time wondering what might happen next, you do remember a president standing in the rubble and rallying the nation. Or do you? The further we get away from that horrible day in my hometown the more intelligent and precient do his detractors become. They would have all done it differently or not done it at all. Damn...he should have gone for the field goal instead of trying for six points. Monday morning experts...like Keith Olberman, Chris ( I've go chills up my legs) Matthews and the new girl on the block Maldow...or whatever.
One more thing, we had 5 1/2 good years economically during the Bush tenure. But that's another thread.
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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 
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