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Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 8:42:46 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Marcy Kaptur, Democratic Congresswoman representing Toledo, Ohio, suggests bucking the current foreclosure crisis by demanding that the current mortgage holder produce the actual mortgage note and for foreclosed homeowners to obtain competent legal representation and "squat" in their foreclosed homes. She may have something here. As we all know, many mortgages have been re-sold multiple times and often been packaged into complex investment packages ( derivatives ). Often, it's difficult, if not impossible, to determine who actually holds the note/loan. Other times, the actual note holder may no longer even exist or be able to produce the note. Even when the note can be produced, the sheer volume of foreclosures makes it very difficult for the note holder to take any action beyond sending an eviction notice and local authorities may be overwhelmed and reluctant to actually put families on the street.

I'm intrigued by the "produce the note" and squatter strategy. It, at least, may buy hard pressed families more time to save some money and move on. At least, it may be a way to poke a stick into the wheels of foreclosure and buck the greedy institutions that helped create the crisis and continue to feed at the public trough while giving themselves tens of billions in executive bonuses.

Here's a link regarding this issue.
http://rawstory.com/rawreplay/?p=2855

Waddy'all think ?

< Message edited by cjan -- 1/30/2009 8:51:50 AM >

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 9:07:58 AM   
aravain


Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline 		Does anyone know of the legal implications of squatting somewhere? I know, very vaugely, that it's technically protected, but I'm interested in the extent.

(in reply to cjan)
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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 9:16:13 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Might be onto something here, but a look at the UCC would be in order, see what it says about it.

Even if it doesn't work, if a presentable case could be made that the courts would entertain, that would most likely estop the eviction itself. Pretty much the same result - buying time. Or would that be borrowing time ?

Of course once recognized as a valid issue, many would probably file, which would slow down the courts' calendars. More time.

I think initially it will be like a few other things.  The first few cases are going to take more than a regular lawyer. Between students of common Law (everybody into it is a student), perhaps Constitutional scholars etc. along with lawyers could come up with a plan.

The last time this kind of people got together, there became tens of thousands of US Citizens now classified by the IRS as non-taxpayers. I know one. He's been that way for at least fifteen years and they know right where he is.

Seems to me this is alot less to ask. In reality it probably would only forestall the eviction. It would do nothing to unwreck the people's credit or anything else, like let them actually keep the house they stopped paying for. However a few months to get their affairs in order and get ready to move would do some a world of good I'm sure.

T

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 9:17:34 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		I think that if politicians, and people, spent as much effort on work and living up to their obligations instead of trying to figure our ways to not live up to their commitments and not paying back what they borrowed; we, and the countries economy,wouldn't be in the condition it is today. 

Since many, if not most, of the financial institutions holding the mortgages are now government owned or at minimum government backed, the good Congressmen is suggesting something that has the result of eliminating the recovery of tax money used to bail out those finance companies. Since I pay my mortgage, can I take a short cut, and just not pay taxes in the first place which are being used to fund the failure of  the financial institutions and the individuals who bought a house they couldn't afford?

As a result of the actions that have been taken, Representative Kaptur, is suggesting action which will insure less bail out tax money be recouped. Thirteen terms with no public sector job experience - yeah she's in touch with the reality of business. I wonder if her 'poor urban' parents would accept non-payment from their customers because they couldn't produce a certified receipt from the wholesaler and couldn't 'prove' ownership for the goods sold in their store?

Why not just recommend theft and rationalize the reason as the victim deserves it because they have more than the thief?

Of course lawyers will get rich in the process. Is that something you support? Rhetorical question - I'm sure she'll be elected 13 more times.

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 9:31:10 AM   
Steponme73


Posts: 552
Joined: 11/9/2007
Status: offline 		This is a double sided sword.  It works to somes advantage and to others disadvantage.  The Government kind of got us into this fix, they share in the responsibility to get us out.  Banks and big business also share in what has happened. 
It will be interesting to see how this "produce the note" thing comes out.

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 9:33:26 AM   
feydeplume


Posts: 935
Joined: 12/24/2008
Status: offline 		I know it didn't work in Louisiana after the hurricane damage, but the laws there are a bit odd. 

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 9:38:14 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		Legislators should stick to writing bad laws, instead of urging their constituents to break the law.

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 9:46:58 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

This is a double sided sword.  It works to somes advantage and to others disadvantage. 
Tax payers disadvantage - tax users and failures - advantage.

quote:

The Government kind of got us into this fix, they share in the responsibility to get us out.
No it didn't. Bureaucrats, many like Representative Kaptur, with little or no practical business experience, "got us into this fix". Government, in particular government money, is YOU and every tax payer. As a result of those bureaucratic decisions YOU are the entity holding the paper that Ms. Kaptur's scheme recommends abdicating responsibility. 

Actually it is 'worst case'. The litigation involved will cost Billions more in tax money and the pragmatic result at the end of the process is the people will be no better off than if they accepted responsibility for their actions today. Who does this benefit in the long, or short, term other than lawyers?

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 9:53:01 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Merc..... leave it to you to come in with that point of view. Believe it or not, I agree with you. But in this case both sides made it into a dirty game. Once the game is dirty there is only one way to play.

We got into this mess letting them play with paper, well what about the commoner finding some paper of his own and wind up with a little slack. And equate that slack with the vacations etc. on which some of the bailout money has already been wasted.

Put another way, if they are going to reward their failures, why not ours just a little bit. Just for a short time.

Is it right ? Probably not. Is it fair ?  I'll leave that one alone. Will it help some people get a month or two out of the deal and maybe not have tyo move in Wisconsin in fucking January ? Time will tell.

All this and I actually do agree with you.  But this is not an ideal situatiuon. And, we are not talking about giving away houses that now belong to the taxpayers, up north here someone has to pay to heat those houses this time of year, who could that be ? The taxpayers or the squatters.

Brother, I think Uhaul is going to make alot of money this next couple years, I wonder if they trade publicly.

And, last but not least, my idea that got swept aside in another thread. We the taxpayers, via the government now own many of these properties. As owner, would we not have the right to just rent them out to the people ? Write a lease and collect, they are inspected and are held responsible for damages etc., but then there is rent coming in.

In other words, give them nothing, but turn them into renters. Unfortunate, but better than moving.

T

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 10:20:31 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		T,
I been on both sides of this issue. I've foreclosed on people and after 9/11 I couldn't pay my obligation and needed to move out. In both instances, never did I tell, or was told, that a reasonable plan for facilitating an orderly property ownership transfer wasn't okay. The Congresswoman isn't suggesting a 'stay' to accommodate weather, or any reasonable situation, she suggesting outright fraud.

Your 'rent' solution is viable. You can do as much now in CA, and I'm sure many other areas, simply with a phone call to the mortgage holder. It will be some portion of the interest being accrued and it can result ultimately in a larger obligation or write off, but no lender, individual or corporate, wants an empty home subject to immediate deterioration, and subsequent further reduction in value. Who knows, at the end of the tunnel, once there is some leveling off, both parties can sit down and negotiate a new mortgage based upon the real property value and not the inflated value created by the availability of bad lending policies and bad 'good intent' government home ownership programs.

However, T, that won't happen if schemes like this are floated as 'solutions'. I've never been concerned with 'blame', so the first part of your post isn't important. It's when I see 'solutions' like this given legitimacy that give me no faith that any leader is willing to come to the forefront with a plan where pragmatic action is taken with full disclosure of the consequences.

I'm desperate for somebody to stand up in front of the county and say to the citizens as you have "both sides made it into a dirty game." Well, game's over, most of us lost. Now, you who bought a home you can't support now, have to turn it over to your lenders. Lenders, who manipulated by payment, legislators who created opportunity to scheme borrowers, survive by selling your assets, merge, or file bankruptcy. Legislators, no additional spending, including 'COL' adjustments, on social programs until their is a surplus and cut your salary and staff 10%. No 'bail-out' money, but the department of commerce will entertain any business plan and is prepared to be a 'venture capital' partner for those dedicated to energy self sufficiency, infrastructure, or existing business take over. Environmentalists - take a time out from NEW restrictions to business and commerce; and any business plan resulting in a major environmental impact will be judged with the betterment of the USA and its citizens taking priority. 

Put that out there and wait a year and see what happens.

Truth needs to be told T, reality needs to be hammered into the citizens. Our representatives should not be offering a plan to circumvent it.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 10:24:26 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		You can't put everybody that is being foreclosed on into the same bag of being deadbeats, merc. Take, for example, the woman in Ohio who bought a house for 147k and put 40k down. She was still given a sub-prime mortgage by the lender. Her payments, due to the variable interest rate, went from $800 a month to $1500. There is no doubt that predatory lenders knew what they were doing. Ok, the mortgagee in question didn't read the contract or shop for alternatives. Instead, acting in good faith, she assumed the lender was also acting in good faith. Shame on her for her naivete !

We both know, merc, that you are always on the side of the predators and that I support the preyed upon. If I had my way, we would be in the streets...Wall Street...and drag these cocksucking greedy leeches out into the street and put them up against the wall. Why is it that you, despite your views regarding socialism ,welfare and personal fiscal responsibility, seem to have no problem with the financial institutions sucking on the public tit while giving themselve sbillions in bonuses ? Yet you object to thousands of homeowners who are victims of a complex financial crisis, who have lost their homes and often their jobs due to no fault of their own, manuevering to buy a little more time in order to stay in their homes and save money so that they can move on ? Perhaps you would be willing to put some of them up in your 10 million dollar castle in Italy until this shit blows over ?

Also, merc, where's the fraud in demanding that a mortgage that was cynicaly, deliberatley and yes fraudulently packaged into a complex derivative and then marketed overseas , be made to produce the note ?


< Message edited by cjan -- 1/30/2009 10:28:11 AM >

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 10:52:17 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		cjan,
quote:

Shame on her for her naivete !
Wow, she had no representation at the sale and just bought the home doing her own title search and everything? She didn't note, and was required to sign, the variable interest rate language, and/or didn't understand the possible consequences? If not, maybe Ms Kaptur's program should be expanded to E&O fraud against every RE closing attorney? 

If 100% of those loans were in foreclosure it may be a point worthy pursuing, as it is, her example is no different than those here in CA where the numbers are $400k down on a $1.5 Million house generating the same foreclosure result. That's what they signed, that's the consequence.

quote:

We both know, merc, that you are always on the side of the predators and that I support the preyed upon.
No - I'm on the side of pragmatic reality. "Predators" now is the Monday morning quarterbacking name for 'GREAT Lenders' making funds available to people who want to be homeowners. At least that's what Senator Frank called them a couple of years ago.
quote:

seem to have no problem with the financial institutions sucking on the public tit while giving themselves sbillions in bonuses
I am? You may be able to read, but your comprehension skills need work. I do not support any bonuses and was against any and ALL bail-outs which provided them. What I am against is creating litigation that would cost more tax money to try and stop them after the fact.
quote:

where's the fraud in demanding that a mortgage that was cynicaly, deliberatley and yes fraudulently packaged into a complex derivative and then marketed overseas
Its fraud when you know you signed a legal document, not under duress, creating an obligation that you are now trying to circumvent. Where's the 'good faith' payment provision for value received? No - better to recommend lies, cheating, fraud, and abdication of responsibility. Are you championing that cause as a cheerleader or do you support it because you too, want/need to abdicate your personal responsibility too?
quote:

Perhaps you would be willing to put some of them up in your 10 million dollar castle in Italy until this shit blows over ?

Frankly, as a consumer, I LOVE the values to be found now. You wouldn't believe the price breaks I got on the suite I had last week in Vegas. It was so discounted I'm taking beth and heading back there to see Billy Joel on Valentine's Day. That castle that you speak is also becoming more realistic. I have the current owner contacting me almost daily and he's down below $4 Million as we speak. By the time we get there in May, I may get it down even further. The reason is all the bullshit you and many others are accepting as fact. So there is a big part of me hoping that the ideas Ms. Kaptur champions are put it place. It will help me much more than the intended 'victims' of failure. 

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 1/30/2009 10:53:53 AM >

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 11:03:31 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		I really don't see the problem Merc,if the lender wants to foreclose on the loan....let them produce the damm note.What you call abdication of responsibility I call dotting the i's and crossing the t's....we all want to see things done in an orderly and legal manner .

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 11:13:48 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
What you call abdication of responsibility I call dotting the i's and crossing the t's....we all want to see things done in an orderly and legal manner .


Fine mike, you think its good that Representatives focus on how people can not pay for their obligations. I don't, and see it as a problem of integrity.

A the same time, it seems that putting a name to something is more important to you. Lets go through the exercise of crossing that 't'. What do you call defaulting on a mortgage obligation and expecting to still live there? 

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 11:27:44 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		If the note holder can't produce the note proving that will they be able to produce the title if the loan is paid off?

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 11:31:15 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		There are shades to life Merc,this is something your viewpoints,or at the least, your posts don't allow for.In your world anyone not meeting his/her obligations is in some way guilty of bad faith in their dealings.In the real world shit happens,and their are predatory lenders and lousy/non-existant legal advice,lay-offs and whole industry's going over seas.
  In the real world Wall Street just took billions of dollars of tax-payer money and thumbed its collective nose at those same tax-payers by handing out huge bonuses.The real world is not as cut and dry as you make it Merc.It is a wonderful thing that you have a rigid set of values and beliefs for yourself,I applaud them and you......but they don't translate so well when your being foreclosed on and the kids want to know where to sleep.If demanding that the company doing the foreclosing produce the note can forestall that question while you work out the answer.....I have no problem with it.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 11:32:39 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I really don't see the problem Merc,if the lender wants to foreclose on the loan....let them produce the damm note.What you call abdication of responsibility I call dotting the i's and crossing the t's....we all want to see things done in an orderly and legal manner .


Exactly.


quote:

merc qoute"

What do you call defaulting on a mortgage obligation and expecting to still live there? 


I call it playing hardball with sleazebags.

Btw, merc, jfyi and to answer your query, no, I'm not in default on a mortgage. It's always interesting to me how you raise these kinds of questions in order to try to belittle someone who voices opinions different from you. Sorry, but it won't work with me.

Best wishes on your plans to retire in sunny Italy. You should feel at home there.


< Message edited by cjan -- 1/30/2009 11:57:47 AM >

_____________________________

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" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 12:27:16 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		On a side note, for an individual who purports to abhor anything that involves the government, Italy is probably Merc's idea of the perfect bureaucratic nightmare. Mama mia .

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 12:28:37 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Wasn't part of the reason she said to do this, that there was bail out for the big guys and not for the little one's?  That injustice led to the tax payer's paying in more taxes to bail out the big guys... all while the little one's become homeless. Whoever is at fault.  If the blame is going to go somewhere... it ought to be shared... as well as the solution.

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RE: Produce the note ! - 1/30/2009 3:45:57 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Well, it's good to see that everyone is now convinced that the President Bush plan for bailing out the financial institutions was the correct path and wants to follow it to the letter, including verifying the documentation. (VERY REPUBLICAN) If only the Democratic Congress followed it and demanded the details for all the tax money sent to those guys. Your tax money BTW - but again - supporting the Bush/Obama stimulus packages seems to justify anything, including having the bail out not paid back. Took a while, but its good to see you all come around to seeing how smart the ex President was, as President Obama has.

Me, I'm a pragmatist, and if the program calls for these financial institutions to recapture their mortgage investment I would think the people responsible for oversight, namely Congress, wouldn't suggest ways to circumvent that plan. Then again, considering the Congresswoman in question has never worked in the public sector she thinks and expects the source of tax payer money is never ending and will always be there.

Speaking of Italy - I can't wait! Thanks for all the regards. As a retired citizen I expect my newly adopted government to work to keep me in the manner I've become accustomed. You're all welcome to visit! It's a really big castle.

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