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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 5:40:24 PM   
MidMichCowboy


Posts: 665
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		I didn't think Michael thumped his chest. I agree whole heartily with what he says. I have been looking for a strong woman. Lord knows it will take one to put up with me. I'm looking for someone to put her strength against and with mine, to show me her weakness as I will show her mine and to help each other be better. We are people, a mixture of everything. We all have many sides to us. But what I read when I read his words, is he wants a woman who will take on life and what is in it, not hide from it. That is the meaning I got. Probably because I'm looking for that myself. I'm a strong person. I'm taking on a lot, special needs umm, ex's families that try to shoot me down with my ummms, mistakes I've made and have to accept and correct. But every day, I face it. I work, I support my family, I try to do good for society and I survive. I want a woman who is the same. Together, we can make the journey easier for each other and more fulfilling for all. We will still screw up, but we can cover each others asses too.

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 6:14:22 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		I dig a strong woman....I will take a weak woman with a tight snatch when in a pinch.

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 6:27:23 PM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		Very cool post.

I'd be interested in hearing more about those "dark places" and "unspeakable acts you can't speak of in public". 

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 7:13:21 PM   
sambamanslilgirl


Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		finally a post i can relate to.

thank you

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 7:32:30 PM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Only one thing I would add......

Sometimes those that would appear to be a lioness are in fact only covering up great insecurity and weakness.

Sometimes those that would appear to be a meek rabbit or doe, are in fact, so amazingly strong.

I used to only look for the lioness and ignore the quieter rabbits and does. I found quite by accident that there is alot to be said for a quiet strong little rabbit. Her strength and submission would shame many that would mock her. Her dedication and devotion are amazing. many little lionesses ran at the first sight of my claws and teeth, yet a little rabbit stood and said, "destroy me if it pleases you", even when I tested her. Now I keep an open  mind and appreciate each for their own unique qualities.


Have I mentioned how much I adore your mind lately?

This is sooo true.

My very shy, and soft one would normally be over looked by those wanting some one strong. However every time some thing big, scary, hairy, or just damn difficult has come up she has faced it down, growled at it.. and had my back. She has such an inner strength to her I stand in awe at times.

She may not be a traditonal lioness... but she has the heart of one.

*beams*

Gwyn



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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 7:58:42 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I can say no, if something is past my limits, even when I feel submissive toward someone, but it is difficult. In general, I'm a strong person, though I can be shy and even deferential, particularly around older strangers. It's impossible for me to "freely choose to submit" to anybody, though, any more than I can "freely choose" to fall in love with them. It's a reaction/interaction, not an act of will. If we aren't compatible, though, I can certainly choose not to act on it, and avoid getting into a relationship with that person.

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 8:20:30 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Andalusite,

Thanks for the perceptive comments.  My post was not meant to imply she is perfectly strong, no more than I am, simply that there is a solid base of strength.

As for choosing to submit, that was perhaps not the best choice of words because I agree, one doesn't DECIDE to submit, it is a reaction to the chemistry present between two people.  I meant she chooses to accept submitting in the sense that she has options, she doesn't need me to take care of her and chooses to be in the relationship of her own free will. 

Which is what you meant when you said
quote:

If we aren't compatible, though, I can certainly choose not to act on it, and avoid getting into a relationship with that person.


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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 8:38:41 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Only one thing I would add......

Sometimes those that would appear to be a lioness are in fact only covering up great insecurity and weakness.

Sometimes those that would appear to be a meek rabbit or doe, are in fact, so amazingly strong.

I used to only look for the lioness and ignore the quieter rabbits and does. I found quite by accident that there is alot to be said for a quiet strong little rabbit. Her strength and submission would shame many that would mock her. Her dedication and devotion are amazing. many little lionesses ran at the first sight of my claws and teeth, yet a little rabbit stood and said, "destroy me if it pleases you", even when I tested her. Now I keep an open  mind and appreciate each for their own unique qualities.


If I haven't said so lately, LaTigresse, you rock.


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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 8:51:24 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		I agree with this commentary. 

I have also seen the other side of the coin where some dominants prefer someone weak-willed.  I don't think either is right or wrong necessarily.  But I find your sentiments more common among both doms and submissives.  If I were a dom, hell yeah, I'd want a submissive who is strong enough to say no, but chooses to say yes, because I'm the end all and be all in their eyes.  

On the other hand, there's something to be said for being under that state of mind where choice and no-choice becomes a really blurry line.  Sometimes I actually like being "weak" to one particular person, but that's after I've been strong enough to decide for myself that I even want to go there with him, which I think is far different than being a passive, weak person who's walking around through life just looking for someone, anyone to control them.  

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 9:54:48 PM   
sravaka


Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline 		This thread is bugging me, and I'm going to try to explain why.  Some of it is what LaTigresse has already said... (I agree with NuevaVida-- you rock) but I suspect there's more there. 

Who on earth are these freaking weak-willed doormats that people are always talking about, as if they constitute a significant population among self-identified submissives??  I seriously think they are straw men (or straw doormats.  whatever.)  And thence a way for non-doormats and non-doormat-admirers to celebrate themselves gratuitously.  (in other words, yes.  chest thumping.)

It takes strength to acknowledge that you have needs that your upbringing and society at large don't prepare you to embrace... and then to embrace them.  It takes strength to serve well and enthusiastically, even when you're tired or distracted or whatever.  It takes strength to be vulnerable, to hold yourself open, when every impulse demands that you protect yourself.  And if the end result of exerting this strength is a partnership where one leads and one follows, without ambiguity, where both are free to be, fully and authentically...  how is this in any way inferior or superior to partnerships that achieve joy and harmony through other means?

One can express opinions without arrogance, and they can be accepted without condescension.  One can (get this) submit totally and uncompromisingly to another's will without jeopardizing one's ability to be effective in dealing with practical matters, for oneself or for one's partner or in general.  It's a question of temperaments, and of being well matched.  I would find it utterly wearisome to have to be constantly reminding a partner, "hey! hey! i have a will of my own!  but, wow! you are so domly-- watch me put it aside for you!"  

I just want to be, and want to be with someone who wants the same, for himself and for me. 

Maybe the main reason this makes no sense to me is that rabbits don't do "adversarial" with those they love.  If I can extrapolate from LaTigresse's post...  the only possible conflict in the "destroy me if it pleases you" scenario would be within the dominant him/herself.  And rabbits seek partners who have the strength of their own to deal with that conflict judiciously.

We're all strong, and we're all weak.  May we all find our bliss.






< Message edited by sravaka -- 2/8/2009 10:43:36 PM >

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 9:58:31 PM   
suhlut


Posts: 622
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Only one thing I would add......

Sometimes those that would appear to be a lioness are in fact only covering up great insecurity and weakness.

Sometimes those that would appear to be a meek rabbit or doe, are in fact, so amazingly strong.

I used to only look for the lioness and ignore the quieter rabbits and does. I found quite by accident that there is alot to be said for a quiet strong little rabbit. Her strength and submission would shame many that would mock her. Her dedication and devotion are amazing. many little lionesses ran at the first sight of my claws and teeth, yet a little rabbit stood and said, "destroy me if it pleases you", even when I tested her. Now I keep an open  mind and appreciate each for their own unique qualities.


~~***ROARS***~~~       ~like all good lil bunnies do..as she yanks at her leash

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The girl's a super freak

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 10:00:44 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Wow...you're back!

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I dig a strong woman....I will take a weak woman with a tight snatch when in a pinch.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 10:03:31 PM   
suhlut


Posts: 622
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka



Maybe the main reason this makes no sense to me is that rabbits don't do "adversarial" with those they love.  If I can extrapolate from LaTigresse's post...  the only possible conflict in the "destroy me if it pleases you" scenario would be within the dominant him/herself.  And rabbits seek partners who have the strength of their own to deal with that conflict judiciously.











wow sravaka... what a nice way to put whats been tumbling around in my brain, and unable to find words for it.. Its nice to see a way to get him to understand.. finally.

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The girl's a super freak

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/8/2009 10:08:44 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

I just want to be, and want to be with someone who wants the same, for himself and for me. 

------

We're all strong, and we're all weak.  May we all find our bliss.




I like what you said here.  I spent a portion of my life as more of a mouse than a rabbit, completely unaware of the inner strength I had lost sight of.  And while my former owner made his share of errors, one thing he did do was to bring me to recognize just what I was capable of, which was miles beyond what I had ever imagined for myself.  He brought deeply hidden strengths to the surface, which was pretty remarkable.

I can understand a dominant wanting a powerful and strong submissive.  My former owner wanted that, too, and helped me become that. He admittedly wanted a strong slave for reasons Michael didn't state in his well described OP - it fed his ego.  But like what LaTigresse said - sometimes those rabbits (or even mice) will surprised you. 


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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 3:05:18 AM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		Actually, if you read the boards a lot, there are many submissives among us who claim to be passive in all areas of life, to all people, there are plenty who readily admit being overly needy and there are even more who identify as "doormats" (I'm only using that term because you used it yourself saying that they may be "straw men").    I'm not here to put any of the above down, but they do exist, and there have been many a thread with people from each camp debating over this very topic and which "type" is preferred.  I think there's a lid for every pot and what works for some doesn't work for others. 

quote:

I would find it utterly wearisome to have to be constantly reminding a partner, "hey! hey! i have a will of my own!  but, wow! you are so domly-- watch me put it aside for you!"  


I can't speak for anyone else, but as someone who identifies as a a strong-minded submissive who chooses to submit to one person, I can say I've never been in a relationship where that kind of dialogue was spoken, nevermind in that kind of tone. It's not something that either party verbally reminds each other of, it's more about a personality characteristic that just "is", or a certain understanding and/or appreciation that exists between two people for whom that element works.  

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 4:06:30 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka 

Maybe the main reason this makes no sense to me is that rabbits don't do "adversarial" with those they love.  If I can extrapolate from LaTigresse's post...  the only possible conflict in the "destroy me if it pleases you" scenario would be within the dominant him/herself.  And rabbits seek partners who have the strength of their own to deal with that conflict judiciously.

We're all strong, and we're all weak.  May we all find our bliss.



You have brought up something that has been a big lesson and "wow" experience for me. First of all, the lack of that adversarial interaction is new to me. Something I had not realized when in the middle of it before. A constant battle of proving myself trustworthy of submission, always conditions. Which is expected in the beginning but there comes a point where it is just exhausting and no fun. And "why?" Even though I was always drawn to it, passing by the cute little rabbits. I wanted the ego boost that conquering those lionesses gave.

With keary, it's been very different. Lindsey, the young woman she served prior, introduced us when they were still, whatever it is they were. Then they parted ways and I lost touch with both. Keary was finally able to contact me again and it was almost instant. But even with the time we spent together, I doubted her in ways. Not until after her car accident and Lindsey visited her, then contacted me, did I fully understand the depth of her submission to me. After over a month apart, a serious life threatening auto accident, and weeks of little communication, Lindsey had habitually tried to establish domination over keary and got a "No, I belong to MissLeeAnn now!" Working within the boundaries I had set. Lindsey told me that keary would not even answer her phone calls or emails until I gave her permission.  Knowing that my wishes were being followed two thousand miles away over a request of a friend/previous dominant in a scary time, kind of floored me. Lindsey admitted to me that I owned keary, and that while she knew it was good, it was also kind of sad to her.

So, yes, it isn't the constant struggle of proving trustworthy which I was accustomed to. This battle is of my own. I am the one setting boundaries and deciding how far I can push her. She's set no boundaries with me. While that sounds rather like an UberCoolslaveMistress thing, it wasn't what I would have ever imagined for myself. I actually had a pretty negative feeling about such. Now I just feel really responsible and am always thinking ahead, always looking at possible consequences, before jumping into anything.

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 6:02:14 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings LaTigresse,

This is one of the areas that has floored me as well. This is also an area that I get so angry with others that want to own someone. Most do not understand the huge responsibility in setting the boundries and making the decisions for another. Hell if you look at today's society, many people have a problem doing that for themselves. Then many of those people do not see the value in it, or appreciate the very rare relationship that it is. It is a powerful, moving, and beautiful thing when somone surrenders completely yet is also one of the strongest people I know. My amira is this way, and similar to you it took a distance of 800 miles apart for me to finally realize.

Live well,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

So, yes, it isn't the constant struggle of proving trustworthy which I was accustomed to. This battle is of my own. I am the one setting boundaries and deciding how far I can push her. She's set no boundaries with me. While that sounds rather like an UberCoolslaveMistress thing, it wasn't what I would have ever imagined for myself. I actually had a pretty negative feeling about such. Now I just feel really responsible and am always thinking ahead, always looking at possible consequences, before jumping into anything.


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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 6:17:28 AM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

This thread is bugging me, and I'm going to try to explain why.  Some of it is what LaTigresse has already said... (I agree with NuevaVida-- you rock) but I suspect there's more there. 

Who on earth are these freaking weak-willed doormats that people are always talking about, as if they constitute a significant population among self-identified submissives??  I seriously think they are straw men (or straw doormats.  whatever.)  And thence a way for non-doormats and non-doormat-admirers to celebrate themselves gratuitously.  (in other words, yes.  chest thumping.)

It takes strength to acknowledge that you have needs that your upbringing and society at large don't prepare you to embrace... and then to embrace them.  It takes strength to serve well and enthusiastically, even when you're tired or distracted or whatever.  It takes strength to be vulnerable, to hold yourself open, when every impulse demands that you protect yourself.  And if the end result of exerting this strength is a partnership where one leads and one follows, without ambiguity, where both are free to be, fully and authentically...  how is this in any way inferior or superior to partnerships that achieve joy and harmony through other means?

One can express opinions without arrogance, and they can be accepted without condescension.  One can (get this) submit totally and uncompromisingly to another's will without jeopardizing one's ability to be effective in dealing with practical matters, for oneself or for one's partner or in general.  It's a question of temperaments, and of being well matched.  I would find it utterly wearisome to have to be constantly reminding a partner, "hey! hey! i have a will of my own!  but, wow! you are so domly-- watch me put it aside for you!"  

I just want to be, and want to be with someone who wants the same, for himself and for me. 

Maybe the main reason this makes no sense to me is that rabbits don't do "adversarial" with those they love.  If I can extrapolate from LaTigresse's post...  the only possible conflict in the "destroy me if it pleases you" scenario would be within the dominant him/herself.  And rabbits seek partners who have the strength of their own to deal with that conflict judiciously.

We're all strong, and we're all weak.  May we all find our bliss.



This thread is one of the more interesting I've seen in awhile: thank you, Michael. 
Sravaka (< waves >), I think that the points you raised are extremely valid and very well-said. 
In pondering the adversarial piece that you highlighted, I looked at relationships I have/have had.  Most have not had acknowledged power dynamics, though I would argue that all relationships do have power dynamics.  It is natural for me, if I feel a particular level of trust and partnership, to defer to my partner.  If there is not that affinity, that depth, that investment or trust or partnership, I remain in charge.  I can only think of one relationship to date that deviates from those stated modes of interaction: ie: that partner and I did have a particular level of trust and still a push-pull dynamic, though that partner preferred I be strongly on the D-side of things which is a difference.  Even there, though, when we settled in with one another, we could be a collaborative force with which to be reckoned. 
I agree with you in that I don't dig adversarial interactions with my true partners, despite being a person of great formidability: I see such as indication of relational problems.  I think, actually, Michael is saying the same basic thing. 
I'll look forward to seeing this thread unfold further. 
  Davan


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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 6:57:18 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Temp hijack,
 
OMG, ct, your new profile pic is hot hot hot!


quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress
woof!!!


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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 7:01:03 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Strength is not defined as how loud one can roar, sometimes silence can be far more powerful.

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