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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 7:08:36 AM   
MMagic


Posts: 183
Joined: 2/9/2009
Status: offline 		AMEN...I love what I call, quiet power. That's way more sexy than roaring..at least roaring all the time anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Strength is not defined as how loud one can roar, sometimes silence can be far more powerful.


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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 7:22:41 AM   
SassySarijane


Posts: 1558
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline 		Thank you, Michael for your post and the responses it has generated that show there are those out there who do want and prefer a strong sub.

I just want to find a man, when I choose to look again, who will see me, appreciate me in my strength; and in the times of weakness. I am a strong person (who has times I am weak). Life has shaped me into who I am now, burned strength into me that I did not have as a young adult. I have found many who are intimidated by that and who tend to try and convince me I am not really a submissive because of it.

So many have wanted to change me into their fantasy of a submissive or slave. No disagreement, no refusal to follow any order no matter what, instant total submission. They have pulled the not true if you don't do x, y, or z card time after time trying to get what they want rather than the person they are doing it to.

What really gets me are those who claim to want a strong submissive or slave and then when they find one try to change him/her into basically a yes man or automaton, try to take that strength from them.

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 7:48:36 AM   
Mercnbeth


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~ Fast Reply ~
This is a great way to rationalize retaining Dominance as a submissive.

There is no value in dominating an automaton, there is similar value to not knowing when, as a Dominant, your Dominance will be allowed and when it will be challenged. Outside influences, whim, cyclical fluctuations in personality, "because I can"; why does that equate to "strength"? I demand strength but prefer that strength be used in harnessing those internal conflicts. It would be ignorant of me to think they didn't exist; but it would be weak of me to allow a submissive to dominate me into having to address them constantly as part of our dynamic. Isn't there submissive "strength" exhibited in control? What takes more effort - Making someone do something they find disgusting and are adverse to doing by coercion or force; or overcoming personal aversion and 'disgust' and doing it to please a Dominant? The scientific approach would say that both efforts getting to the same goal require the same effort. So any "strength" applied to the coerced sub must be similarly applied to the non-coerced Dom/sub situation. Which scenario is more attractive depends on those involved but does not indicate "strength" or weakness for that matter of anyone.

Conditional submission is dominance. It may be perceived as "strength", but from the perspective of who dictates the actions and activities, it is what it is. Is it "Good" or "Bad"? Not material anymore than what is/isn't perceived as "strength". The bottom line "success" has only one indicator - partners happy and content with each other.

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 8:04:54 AM   
SassySarijane


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From: KC Area Missouri
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quote:

Conditional submission is dominance. It may be perceived as "strength", but from the perspective of who dictates the actions and activities, it is what it is.


I disagree that being a strong submissive equates to conditional submission or any sort of dominance. I understand that you see it that way, but it is entirely different to me. I am strong, as I said and that strength is a big part of what enables me to submit when I find one who fits me. It is very natural for me to become the caretaker so to speak, looking for ways to please, to ease, to care for my dominant, to show my love and caring as I learn what pleases him, what brings him happiness and contentment. The only "conditions" I put on it is that I do not submit and do those things unless we have developed a relationship with love and building trust, respect, friendship.........we match. Then the gloves are off and it is all out for me. I hold back until the relationship develops to the point I know I can let go. I am not the greatest with words, but I am hoping I am conveying what I mean.

quote:

  The bottom line "success" has only one indicator - partners happy and content with each other.


Now this I most definitely agree with.

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 8:19:37 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Conditional submission is dominance. It may be perceived as "strength", but from the perspective of who dictates the actions and activities, it is what it is. Is it "Good" or "Bad"? Not material anymore than what is/isn't perceived as "strength". The bottom line "success" has only one indicator - partners happy and content with each other.


Hi Merc,

I just finished writing a post in the "gift" thread about conditional submission, and then I read this.  There was a time I may have taken offense to these words but I actually agree with them now.  And you're right - it isn't a good thing or a bad thing, it just is.  Success is absolutely when two or more people find joy together, I agree there, too.

My post in the other thread explained my own rationale about conditions:

quote:


"I've been "unconditional" before.  It didn't work out so well.  So I wrote given where I am now, which is a state of transition.  Maybe that will change in time.  Maybe it won't...I really don't know.  But right now I'm all I've got, and I have to look out for myself.  The idea of giving over everything unconditionally leaves me thinking that leaves me too vulnerable to the pain I went through, which is not something I want to repeat.  I have found there is a line within me and when it's crossed my emotions change and I pull back forever.

Perhaps in my future there will be someone who brings me to that unconditional place again, but  I have no crystal ball and simply do not know.  It would have to be something pretty damned special, though.  But this is why I no longer identify as a slave (as I define slave to be).   I'm just not willing to go through that again at this time."


I see my own words and think yep, that's dominance.  But I'm dominating myself these days so that kind of dominance is prudent.  Naturally I'd be cautious as I enter a future relationship.  As to when or if that caution subsides, well that remains to be seen, I suppose. 


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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 8:22:04 AM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
 
Conditional submission is dominance. It may be perceived as "strength", but from the perspective of who dictates the actions and activities, it is what it is.


I disagree with this.

Being strong willed and making a conscious decision about who to submit to, and having the ability to say no but choosing to say yes, doesn't mean the submission is conditional.   Conditional submission is simply conditional submission.  Passive personalities can offer conditional submission as well as someone strong or someone in between the two extremes.  

I don't see the corrolation at all between "strength" equalling "conditional".

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 8:28:26 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I demand strength but prefer that strength be used in harnessing those internal conflicts.
 
Merc, we are in agreement here.  Beth doesn't use her strength to always harness her internal conflicts with anyone and everyone she meets, anyone who knows her knows that.  She does it for YOU however...and that was my point.  It also illustrates that she HAS conflict and knowing you, you often know when and where those conflicts are and even if you choose to ignore them, you have given thought to them, weighed them, and only then ignore them.
 
quote:

 The bottom line "success" has only one indicator - partners happy and content with each other.
 
And again we agree.  I tried to write my OP without putting anyone down, it was to show how SOME of us do it, not how we do it better, nor how others do it wrong, but how for some of us, strong submissives are what we want.


< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 2/9/2009 8:30:38 AM >

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 8:31:35 AM   
Andalusite


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I meant she chooses to accept submitting in the sense that she has options, she doesn't need me to take care of her and chooses to be in the relationship of her own free will. 

Which is what you meant when you said
quote:

If we aren't compatible, though, I can certainly choose not to act on it, and avoid getting into a relationship with that person.

Actually, what I meant was that if someone is pushing my boundaries to the point where I have to defend them, resist, be in an adversarial relationship with them, it is emotionally exhausting and painful for me to keep having to defend myself, so I will break up with him or choose not to get involved with him in the first place.

It is like when I am dancing - if I'm with a good lead, he can make me do all kinds of really difficult things, and my feet just magically go where they belong without much thought or effort on my part. I feel like an extension of his will, of his body, of his creativity. Even if I mess up, as long as I keep my center where it belongs, I don't interfere with him, and can get back on track. Sometimes, if I am learning something new, I really struggle with myself, to get the control of my mind and body to do what I am supposed to. However, if they are patient, and clear in what they want, that internal struggle doesn't usually last long, because once I get there, I am right *with* him, feeling those subtle cues of what I need to do and where I need to go. If I am with a lead who is a little too jerky or forceful, or with one who tries to get too close/sexual, but who doesn't quite cross the line enough that I have to stop dancing with him, I have to resist and be guarded. That throws my timing off, throws me (and consequently us) off balance, and forces me to try to keep up with him intellectually/guess what he wants.

When I am first in the dating stages with someone, I let them know that I don't want to do a and b until I am in a committed relationship, and that while c and d aren't limits per se, I am very nervous about trying them, and need them to keep any exploration in those areas low key and positive. I don't have many hard limits, and those are areas that are illegal anyway (no kids, pets, things that IMHO people shouldn't even need to say). If I have to keep defending those boundaries, keep having to say no to him, I will feel distrustful and resistant even when he isn't actively pushing me, and I will probably leave.

I do feel I have to be more cautious about getting involved with a Dominant than someone who identifies as a top, or sadist (or submissive or bottom, for that matter. Switches depend on the combination that they have), precisely because a) they frequently want to push limits, b) like watching that internal struggle to comply, and c) I feel even more vulnerable and less comfortable about pushing back than if I don't feel submissive toward them.

It's not a "one strike and you're out" deal, and I can be strong and resist if I truly need to. However, I don't want to keep fighting, if I feel submissive toward someone. I want to surrender! He can ask/order me to do things that are difficult for me, where I have to struggle with *myself* to comply, to give him what he wants. I can accept "bad pain." He can push me to the point of tapping/safewording out, if that is the dynamic he likes, as long as the true "crossing this boundary is something I can't handle/will be harmful to me" areas are respected.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 2/9/2009 8:35:00 AM >

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 8:35:00 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		Michael, I think your OP was wonderfully written. I think that there are some following posts that are being read with different filters and being interpreted differently. Some seeing one way better than another, when there is none if all parties are fullfilled.

As an example, some are appearing to see strength as a conditional submission. Whereas I read in Merc's post, about a strength in submitting beyond condition of sorts. No battle for the submission between dominant and submissive, just the submissive person battling, within themself, to submit.

Some see strength as loud and in your face, roar. Others see it as being an inner quality that needs little external expression.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 2/9/2009 9:07:15 AM >

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 8:55:05 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I meant she chooses to accept submitting in the sense that she has options, she doesn't need me to take care of her and chooses to be in the relationship of her own free will. 

Which is what you meant when you said
quote:

If we aren't compatible, though, I can certainly choose not to act on it, and avoid getting into a relationship with that person.


Actually, what I meant was that if someone is pushing my boundaries to the point where I have to defend them, resist, be in an adversarial relationship with them, it is emotionally exhausting and painful for me to keep having to defend myself, so I will break up with him or choose not to get involved with him in the first place.

Again, I think we agree here and for the exact reasons you lay out so elegantly in your description of dance. 


< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 2/9/2009 8:58:01 AM >

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 8:55:59 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
Being strong willed and making a conscious decision about who to submit to,
"Who" was never considered in my post. What, why, how; those conditions of submission are the reference intended to the quote "Conditional submission is dominance".
quote:

ORIGINAL: SassySarijane:
I disagree that being a strong submissive equates to conditional submission or any sort of dominance.
I'd disagree with "a strong submissive equates to conditional submission", too. There is dominance in conditional submission that has no relationship to 'strength'. It represents retained control, power, and authority. I'm presenting an argument saying strength is required to overcome the conditions.

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 9:23:54 AM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
On the other hand, there's something to be said for being under that state of mind where choice and no-choice becomes a really blurry line.  Sometimes I actually like being "weak" to one particular person, but that's after I've been strong enough to decide for myself that I even want to go there with him, which I think is far different than being a passive, weak person who's walking around through life just looking for someone, anyone to control them.  

While everyone here is telling everyone else just how much they "rock," let me say that I've found no post here more worthy of a  than this one, marie.

I could not agree more.  To me, you have summed up the crux of the debate often had around here.  On the one hand, we have those slaves/property who insist on telling everyone how submission is never really a choice.  They can, have and would still submit to anyone they perceive as having a shred of dominance or authority if their current owners didn't forbid it.  Their submission is never "inspired" and it is never "turned on and off like a faucet."  As a matter of fact they say, that tap is left on wide open for anyone who passes by.

In the opposite corner, we have those submissives who have a special gift and, By God, any dominant of theirs is gonna work hard to earn it.  The hoops a potential dominant must jump through are laid out and it seems virtually impossible to actually be able to "dominate" one of these submissives correctly according to how their plan is laid out.

I don't identify with either of these types.  I'm somewhere in the middle.  I don't go around submitting to any Tom, Dick or doorstop just because I say I'm "submissive."  Never have, never will.  On the other hand, I can never see myself acting as the second group does either.  Marie, I loved your example of being strong in your life and during the course of choosing one you choose to submit to and THEN and only then, showing your weaknesses to that one you can trust.  That's exactly how it has worked for me.  Only after I connected with Master and knew it was going to work did I begin to submit and let any weaknesses show.  Why is it somehow "lesser than" to be strong up until you choose to submit and let a weakness show?

It's often looked upon with disdain here when we discuss that submission is "inspired" and doesn't exist in all of our interactions with others in life.  That's considered being a "bedroom submissive" by some or somehow fake because it's "turned on and off."  I call bullshit.  Feelings of submission are turned off when I'm around most everyone else I encounter in life.  It IS a choice for me.  Submitting it not just something that "happens" to me that's out of my control.  Perish the thought.

I agree with Michael's OP as does Master.  He has occasionally remarked that if I would submit to anyone, anyhow or any way, wow wouldn't he feel special?  He's got a pulse and will take the time to "dominate" me so He'll do?  Nah.  Submission IS a choice for me, I chose very carefully and it's worked out splendidly so far. 

Thanks Marie for summing it up so perfectly

luci



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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 10:02:50 AM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		Not so sure about all of this posturing.  I would prefer to take the caveman approach and simply dominate a totally unwilling partner...Take a woman that is strong in mind and spirit and simply break her will...That would be "twue" domination..Then I would watch a whole bunch of Star Trek, Battle Star Galactica read some Gor crud and dress up like a knight or a pirate. the idea of "taking" a woman lost much of it's appeal after I watched the fall out from the Elizabeth Smart case. I think those knuckleheads got in a little bit of trouble, it made me realize that I probably should look for more "consentual" outlets for my domlust.

I can't help but sometimes feel a bit condescending when addressing this subject.  It's six of one half dozen of the other.  I want a partner that accepts my kink and is thrilled to go along for the ride. She catches my drift, rides my wave...(tears well up in my eyes) ..."She gets me, man!!!"

I bitch about women...But then I hear from them and they are more than happy to explain that the dudes on this thing are no picnic either.  I continually hear how they don't have jobs, don't live alone, hiding a marriage, are complete turds that are incapable of carrying on a meaningful conversation let alone actually participating in a "healthy" relationship with a woman.  By calling themselves a "Dom" is just a way to hide behind their ever present inadequacies.

Fuck, at this point, I would accept a woman off of this site that actually cares about her appearance, isn't taking a pile of meds, is literate, has successfully dealt with her darker issues, has a thirst to learn more about the world that surrounds her,  hasn't lost her mind to fantasy or is too lost into this whole messy thang that we do.  Doesn't dress like Morticia Adams or some wench that would be more reminiscent to the days of Jack the Ripper or earlier.

Fuck it. I'm dating vanilla . I know my twisted flower is out there, just waiting to be plucked and fucked.  She will never be the same. I will be her Hurricane Katrina.  When FEMA finally reaches her it will be too late, nothing left to salvage, move along...Nothing to see here.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 2/9/2009 10:04:17 AM >

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 10:04:47 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

Many men HAVE in profile they do not want a doormat yet want a STRONG submissive but when it comes down to it 99% don't really mean that.  When it comes down to it they backtrack at the slightest equal or corrective conversation and play the victim  'you cannot be submissive, you don't automatically adore me' game.  They truly want a bimbo who wouldn't notice just how weak they are and assume throwing in the 'I want a strong woman' bit makes them 'appear' more masculine.  It doesn't.


Just a thought for consideration...

It could be that some men who want a strong submissive, do so because it relieves them of responsibility.  How easy is it for a dominant to assuage his conscience by claiming that his strong submissive should have said "no"?

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 10:07:03 AM   
daddysprop247


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Status: offline 		perhaps this speaks to the personal sensitivities we all have, but from what i've observed over the years in the lifestyle, on and offline, is that most Dominants want a submissive much like SimplyMichael describes in the OP. they want that "tamed lioness," and they look with disdain and disgust upon submissives who do not submit out of some conscious choice to do so or out of any inspiration to do so. they look down upon submissives who are well...submissive as a general state of who they are and how they interact with others in the world. they want the dichotomy of someone being capable, "strong," independent, sometimes even assertive in the larger world, but submissive to them. so, again according to my own observations, these submissives have always been generally considered to be very desireable, very much wanted and valued.



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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 10:49:16 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
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Status: offline 		Most, if not all, healthy men ( and women, for that matter )seek health, strength and balance in a partner, be they kinky or vanilla. That's why, as domi said, all "the posturing" gives me pause. This isn't rocket science.

< Message edited by cjan -- 2/9/2009 11:15:12 AM >

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 11:03:54 AM   
marie2


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Status: offline 		Ha....Luci, that's like the second time in a year that someone agrees with me on these boards.  I think I'm having an orgasm over here.  :)

I agree that there seems to be a competition all the time about what's more real and what's true etc.  For a long time the "doormats" had taken a verbal beating and been met with derision,  and now there seems to be a trend that implies that strong submissives who are able to harness and direct their submission by choice are somehow less authentic than other "types".  

It comes down to different strokes for different folks.  And I think anyone who can find their fulfillment within their relationship with their chosen partner is a huge success, regardless of what they call themselves.

And a general thought:  I didn't think the OP came off as comparing or saying one type was better than another, it just looked like a commentary on a particular preference, and it was written in a way that it celebrated that preference, and explained it, without tearing down anyone else.   

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 11:06:46 AM   
heartfeltsub


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Status: offline 		Although i think that you and i have had a similar discussion sometime in the past, i think that slaveluci summed up why Dominants want submissives who chose to submit to them as opposed to everyone the best
quote:


He has occasionally remarked that if I would submit to anyone, anyhow or any way, wow wouldn't he feel special?  He's got a pulse and will take the time to "dominate" me so He'll do? 


If anyone who is available could "dominate" a person, that doesn't make a person's submission to me (just using the term, i'm not a Dominant) very special. Any one would do. i would think that that would make one wonder then why is she or he with me as opposed to someone else and how easy would it be for someone else to take her or him away from me.

i know that there are some on the site, yourself included prop who say that you are submissive to everyone, so that makes me wonder why are you with your Master over someone else if your submission is not a choice or doesn't need to be inspired at all.

heartfelt

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 11:11:54 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

perhaps this speaks to the personal sensitivities we all have, but from what i've observed over the years in the lifestyle, on and offline, is that most Dominants want a submissive much like SimplyMichael describes in the OP. they want that "tamed lioness," and they look with disdain and disgust upon submissives who do not submit out of some conscious choice to do so or out of any inspiration to do so. they look down upon submissives who are well...submissive as a general state of who they are and how they interact with others in the world. they want the dichotomy of someone being capable, "strong," independent, sometimes even assertive in the larger world, but submissive to them. so, again according to my own observations, these submissives have always been generally considered to be very desireable, very much wanted and valued.


Everyone out here is different.  Often my thoughts evolve and change over time.  I think what many are trying to articulate is that we value intelligence. 

Actually, I dig a really submissive woman.  But just because she has made the choice to defray many of the decisions to moi....Does not mean that she is lacking in other areas. 

She can drink my pee, stand on a chair and masturbate, deepthroat like a champ  but is capable of  free and explorative thought. For me, most of this is kink.  So once we get past the sexual side of it, much of this shit loses it's appeal. 

Now some peeps dig the 24 hr nonstop shit....I think that "you" fall more under this category.  You are a groovy smart chick...and rather easy on the eye, yet we would never be compatible because I could never supply what you need and you would probably bug me to the point that I would inevitably have to kill you.

So we must have a pretty clear cut  idea of the type of partner that would leave us most fulfilled or we might just be spinning our wheels. 

In the short run, spinning your wheels might be just what the mechanic ordered.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 2/9/2009 11:14:04 AM >

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RE: Strong Subs and the Men Who Love Them - 2/9/2009 11:12:24 AM   
agirl


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Status: offline 		There's a few things here that I had a few thoughts about. The first one being the assertion by Michael that...**... one doesn't DECIDE to submit, it is a reaction to the chemistry present between two people. **
I think is perhaps the case for a lot of people but not in mine. I DID decide to submit, not because of *chemistry* but because M could do the job.

I imagine any challenge would be to have someone demanding.. To have an undemanding submissive partner tends to indicate that little skill or effort is required.

I see a difference in *strength*........a passive little riding school pony has a lot of strength that is different to the strength of a high spirited race-horse. They both likely have strength of 'endurance and will' but it'll be in different measures and in different areas.

Of course there's safety in having a submissive partner that you can be confident that you're not going to *break* when you go crazy-dark places with her........but many people gain that from *not so strong* submissive partners too, by working with them and using skill and patience to gain trust and bring them along with them; showing them that they won't be *broken*. A different and more laborious way of getting to the same place.

For myself......I don't actually have a huge desire to submit at all. I have the ability to submit where it's sensible and where it's to my benefit. I am devoid of the *longing* to find a dominant partner and I don't have lots of submissive *feelings* that I'm looking to play out somehow, somewhere with someone.... I DID however come across someone who SHOWED they could do what it said on the tin...and I HAVE been adversarial on occasions and he HAS *broken* me on others......... but he wasn't AFRAID to do that, nor afraid to accept what came from it.

He doesn't have the security of knowing that I'll put a stop to ANYTHING that might happen. It's HIS job to be on the ball, it's HIS job to monitor the structures that he's encouraged, nurtured and put in place. It's his job to know when and how to do whatever it is he chooses to do, to know how much is too much.

I don't do his job and he doesn't do mine.

agirl








(in reply to SassySarijane)
Profile   Post #: 60
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