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Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 10:00:03 AM   
rednicky


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I was looking at a little bit of social history and, regardless of the race or the advancement of a society, location, or time period, women seem to always be submissive to men (whether they like it or not). I was reading up on the cult that was discovered in America (Texas I believe) where the men would take advantage of the women and children and they were completely Dominated and brainwashed by men. Some women even helped the men by brainwashing the young! Why is this? Why is it that in every form of society, women are submissive to men? I mean, even today in America and other parts of the world, where women have gained true independence, they're still treated like objects, used for advertising and sex appeal. And, once a woman's sex appeal is gone, she is somewhat useless to society (unless she's got money). It's as if society turns they're back on women who are not young and pretty. Don't say that you don't see it. And so many women buy into it as well. Everywhere you look, it says that big tits, thin bodies, long hair, and promiscuity are best. And women are sitting back and saying "Okay yea. We can do that for men." And they jump through these hoops, starving themselves and going through these extremes attempting to be acceptable to men. Sure, there is some pressure on men, but it's no big deal if a man is older or out of shape. So, not only do so many women fall into the trap of doing anything in order to be pleasing to the opposite sex, they don't even put the same amount of pressure on men! It would be different if women said "yea, we'll look a certain way for you guys. But you guys have to look a certain way for 'us' too." That's not how things have worked. A 6 pack seems to be 'extra'. Something that's not needed but looks good on a guy anyway. But if a woman is not a certain weight, she is given hell.

So even though things are better, things are not how they 'should' be and it surprises me at how long it is taking and how little women are doing to obtain true equality.

Why is it that, regardless of the surroundings, women as a whole, seem to follow men blindly? Especially when there are more women than men ANYWAY! And, at this point, it's not a matter of submission. It's submitting to the wills of men that are obviously wrong. A woman knows that a man shouldn't be beating her child. A woman knows a man shouldn't be beating 'her'. Hell, men don't put up with being hit by each other. Why do so many woman think it's okay to be hit or subjected to treatment that men themselves don't even tolerate? I'd like to believe that women are just as capable, independent, smart, and expect to share equal power with men. But I just don't see it. And the little I do see is such a small amount that it is easily overlooked. It's almost like the few women who have sought after true equality are simply a glitch in the mind frame of the female. Are women just fooling themselves into thinking that they are equal to men? Because they certainly haven't shown it very much in the past. Just like men as a whole took it upon themselves to be the dominant sex, why didn't women as a whole say "No. We shall be equal or not work together at all"? Matter of fact, it was men who took it upon themselves to show women respect as a sex. And had not the bible been around to actually tell them to respect their wives, I don't even think we'd get 'that' much. Some men "don't" and "haven't" treated their women with respect in certain areas...and women just sit there and take it.

Now I'm not going on a man-hating rant. I like men. And I praise God that I live in America where men respect women (to some extent.) But I just don't like how long it's taken to get to this point. I feel like, were we to isolate a group of men and women on, say, a deserted tropical island, leaving them to develop their own government, men would be in charge...and women wouldn't object.

I just don't understand. And it's making me question myself as a fully capable woman. Maybe I'm a glitch and women were never really meant to have as much power as men. Maybe I'm fighting for something that is unobtainable. Because so many women seem to be content with the way things are now. I for one do not like how our bodies do the talking. But so many other women do. And not enough women recognize the real damage that being viewed as an object is causing.

I'll briefly mention D/s but this thread really has nothing to do with it. I would like to be submissive to another man but not if it means playing into societies way of thinking about women. I've stepped back an looked at the big picture. Me submitting to a man would just be 1 more women playing her part as the submissive woman that I 'should' be. And I don't want to send that message. I guess what I'm looking for is reassurance. Reassurance that I (we) are just as good as any man could ever be. But how can I...when history has proven me so very very wrong time and time again?

Once again, this has nothing to do with bdsm. I'm speaking of people in general. And, this time, I'm open to any and all comments. I know I wasn't before and I'm sorry. My self esteem right now is in the shitter and I just want to know how other women do it. How do other women live without being so angry like me. I want to live in a certain way that'll make me happy (a D/s lifestyle). But not if it means reinforcing the very ideas about women that I hate. But this conflict that is going on within me is tearing me apart and making me very unhappy. I want to ignore the world and do what I want to do. But I can't do what I want to do when men, the unspoken leaders of the world, still have these terrible ideas about women. Hopefully you understand me.

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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 10:07:13 AM   
YoursMistress


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If you spend a little time reading through these fora and look into FemDom, I think you'll find that there a large number of dominant women and submissive men who don't fit your model at all.  I also think that you do the soldiers in the feminist movement a great injustice to claim that men finally "let" women have a sense of equality and respect. 

yours


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May your service of love a beautiful thing; want nothing else, fear nothing else and let love be free to become what love truly is. -- Hadewijch of Antwerp

As a rule, I don't like to make general statements.

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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 10:10:21 AM   
feydeplume


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Lemme get my thoughts in some order here and i will (hopefully) give you some food for thought on the topic of why women are seen as less powerful than men historically and why it is so paradoxical. I KNOW i have a list of great books on the topic but i just don't know which hard drive that list is on.

But most importantly, you are not alone. And you can live the life you want to lead, d/s or otherwise, by making smart choices and re-framing (yes i know pop-psychology) the way YOU view the attitudes and actions of men. Take your power to see the world your way into your own hands and head.

More when i have my thoughts and references together.


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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 10:14:09 AM   
mc1234


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 Hey there, red. 

You're all over the map with your post.  Bottom line for me is - I have to live the way it feels best for me and my family, and pass on my beliefs to my family - what the rest of the world does and says, well, while it can be frustrating or, at the other end of the spectrum, a joy at times, it's too big for me to sit and worry about. 

You're young; perhaps there are issues that you need to deal with because you feel all this anger - I don't know your background.  But to me being 'equal' is difficult to define, at best, and not something I worry about most days. 

Your basic question, though - how do I live without being angry?  I've never been as angry and frustrated as you sound.  I'm a pretty happy, satisfied person.  I have very great self esteem and confidence.  And I am a submissive.  I'm older than you, more mature and have seen more of the world.  Perhaps that's part of it. But I've always thought I was pretty great, even when I was your age.  And I don't remember being angry with the world at your age, so I'm not sure where that's coming from for you. 

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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 10:17:25 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

So even though things are better, things are not how they 'should' be and it surprises me at how long it is taking and how little women are doing to obtain true equality.

Not all women want what you call 'true equality"...in fact, if it was ever offered to me...after I finished laughing, I would have to throw up just in disgust.

< Message edited by IrishMist -- 2/14/2009 10:18:14 AM >


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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 10:19:12 AM   
Owner59


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It some ways no,in others,yes.It depends.In some ways,woman are superior/more productive.

On a comparative individual 1 to 1 basis,it can go either way.

I know women who knock the biggest, strongest men down and keep them there.

And mentally, it`s 50/50 with an edge toward woman for being a bit calmer and more diplomatic.

Added-none of this is an excuse to pay woman less,for the same job worked.Equal pay for an equal amount of work should be the norm.Instead,the norm is for women to be payed 70-80 cents for every dollar a male counterpart earns.

I`m sure that those expressing that not all woman want equality,are`nt talking about pay.Or at least I hope so.These are our moms and sisters,aunts and daughters we talking about and the incomes they depend on.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/14/2009 10:31:09 AM >


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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 10:21:57 AM   
VampiresLair


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I run a department at work where I supervise 4 men. I'll be damned if I am subissive to anyone, but they sure learned quick that they answer to me.

There are cults everywhere that do all sorts of things, you fastened on one becasue it showed your point. Historically women were not as able to do things as men. Given, historically proven yadda yadda.

Now, however, the more women get , the more posts like yours like to minimalize it and point out how much more there is to get rather than how far they have gotten.

And dont forget there are a huge number of women who have no desire to be equal to men. So, they will never be no matter how far their ability to do so goes.

DV



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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 11:24:44 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Read up on evolutionary psychology.

It's all about the perpetuation of genes.

Firm


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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 11:41:54 AM   
came4U


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Women in history were not always the submissive gender.  In many cases they were equal to if not more powerful than the male gender. 

One of the major uses of religion was to allow men to overthrow the power of women and bring about compliant subversity through teachings of theology, language and patristics or 'Institutiones Patrologi'.

Why? men fear the pussy and the power that comes with it. 

Women controlling the world around them is not a new concept and it will be a long time in coming again....until men get over their uterus envy.

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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 12:01:26 PM   
TNstepsout


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Nope- they're better. 

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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 12:08:31 PM   
LaTigresse


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Aside from the fact that there have been, and are, many examples of women being either equal in importance within a society or of greater importance (property and family name being passed down through the women etc)...... I don't view male and female as a matter of equality at all.

We are different, we think differently, we are built differently, we cope differently.........we are just different. In some instances that means a male has an advantage and in others it means a female has an advantage.

The key is being smart enough to recognize the differences, strengths and weaknesses, and work with them rather than against them.

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 12:13:08 PM   
subtlebutterfly


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I was going to say oh not the equal bullshit again......but I agree with LaTigresse n second her post, I don't think this has got anything to do with equality.

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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 12:16:15 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

But I can't do what I want to do when men, the unspoken leaders of the world, still have these terrible ideas about women.



That's an interesting point of view when you consider that the majority of men spend the majority of their time with women - girlfriend or wife. I'm not quite sure how you reconcile this with your terrible ideas comment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

Hopefully you understand me.



Something about cheese, I think

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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 12:25:07 PM   
catize


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Yes, we are different, rather than un-equal.  But there is the pervasive attitude that what men do is more important than what women do.  I would like to see a time when each gender’s contributions to society, the work place, the family....... are all equally valued.

< Message edited by catize -- 2/14/2009 12:26:03 PM >


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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 12:30:47 PM   
awmslave


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Human population is variable. We can not make generalizations like men are superior to women unless you turn it into religious virtue or into a moral norm. This is how the issue was treated  during middle ages and in some areas today. But the last is just justification for certain type of behavior rather than the truth. The genetic argument: men are born as hunters and breadwinners and deserve to be in charge of everything is not  correct. It has more to do with division of labor as nature designed it than with superiority. I do not believe genetic component can be automatically extrapolated into advanced human societal behavioral norms.
One of the purpose and reality of human soul is to discover your inner self and achieve harmony (I put great value on Zen philosophy). It is wise not to get caught in web of conformism; what others do and think of you should not be guide for your actions or passivity. Important is to do what you understand  and enjoy at the same time (use your brain) moving forward and not getting stuck in a labyrinth. The idea that others are better than you is an illusion that can be easily discovered if you do some research. Everybody is in the same boat. A career criminal who enjoys action and adrenaline rush as well as prison life may be much happier and more free than Donald Trump.

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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 12:31:25 PM   
LaTigresse


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I think that it is becoming more and more so. At least with most of the people I know.

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 1:18:28 PM   
Lockit


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Behind every good man is a woman with a strap on...  

I know... I know... but I guess I never passed muster with the men superior to me bit.  Equal... doesn't apply either.  We are all different... equal in importance in my book... but nobody is superior.

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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 1:42:20 PM   
littlewonder


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genders are equal

Individuals are not

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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 1:42:46 PM   
barelynangel


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In order to be equal, you have to be the same, Men and women are not the same and therefore not equal, people individually are not the same and therefore can not be compared with regard to being equal to each other so logically no individuals are not equal.  To me, if people embrace their difference instead of weep for because they aren't the same, you may find in the end equality doesn't mean much of anything and you will be much happier in the long run.  Also, if you see not being equal as a concept of inferior and superior you also will never find peace with being who yu are becuase you will always be worrying about finding that impossible concept of being equal instead of simply embracing who you are and who those around you are.  To me, if you want to waste your time striving to be equal to everyone instead of striving to be the ultimate of who you are, your focus is in the wrong place.  How do women not be angry?  Because they aren't worried about what everyone else is doing, they focus on themselves and realize their differences are what make them important in the general course of the existance in life.  Its time to let go of what you cannot change and instead change what you can -- YOURSELF and your understanding not being equal isn't a bad thing, its not an inferior superior contest.  It simply is --

grins, i always love saying this because to me a kindergartener got this in Kindergarten Cop that many should make note of ---- boys have a penis and girls have a vagina.   If that doesn't clue you in on it, nothng ever will.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 2/14/2009 1:45:03 PM >


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RE: Are women 'really' equal to men? Truely? - 2/14/2009 1:50:26 PM   
came4U


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Ohhh looky, this is some sort of improvement/step forward:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/02/14/saudi.arabia.woman.minister/index.html

Saudi King appoints first woman to council


Story Highlights
Saudi King Abdullah appoints a woman to council of ministers for first time
King appoints Noor Al-Fayez as deputy minister for women's education
Khaled Al-Maeena, editor-in-chief of Arab News, says people "excited" by move






(CNN) -- Saudi King Abdullah has appointed a woman to the council of ministers for the first time as part of a Cabinet reshuffle, networks including Saudi state-run Channel One reported Saturday.

Yay!!

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