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Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 4:49:10 AM   
Eleutherios


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: Houston, Tx
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I am a dominant and sadistic male with no masochistic tendencies, and no desire to submit. However, I feel like I need to learn how to give up control, especially of my self. Of course, I'm sure I'd benefit by learning how to dominate someone even better. But for me it goes deeper than just wanting to better understand the other side of the D/s coin. There are issues in my day to day life that I think I could handle 100 times better if I could be more OK with not being in control. Submitting and enjoying it, for me, would be a profound and life changing event. I think I need that.

So my first instinct is to find an experienced and strong dominant woman that I can trust and respect enough to put my training in her hands.

What do you think, is this a realistic request of someone?
What would you say to such a request?



_____________________________

-E


~
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
—Thomas Jefferson—
~
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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 4:56:44 AM   
sambamanslilgirl


Posts: 10926
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From: Chicago, IL
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you sound like my pet.

he wanted to "feel" what it would be like if i was on Top and him on the bottom.  well, we both discovered he was more submissive and masochistic than i was when the roles were reversed. though there's some dominance left in him but he's more comfortable as my pet.

recently i collared him as mine

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:01:18 AM   
Eleutherios


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: Houston, Tx
Status: offline
Probably not like your pet at all, actually.
I know exactly what it feels like. And I hate it. I hate submitting in every aspect of my life. I do it, of course, as we all do from day to day. But I would be a much happier and well adjusted person if I could learn to be content when not in control.


_____________________________

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~
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
—Thomas Jefferson—
~

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:03:47 AM   
thishereboi


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If you approached me with this request, I would probibly suggest you go to a theripist. They are trained to help people through something like this.

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:06:24 AM   
Eleutherios


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: Houston, Tx
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

If you approached me with this request, I would probibly suggest you go to a theripist. They are trained to help people through something like this.


A reasonable suggestion, one I've considered. But a therapist can not strip me bare of my control over my self. 


_____________________________

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~
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
—Thomas Jefferson—
~

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:12:27 AM   
PeonForHer


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I don't think that's what therapists do, Eleutherios.  I think they just help the non-controlling part of you to grow through - bit by bit, and gently.  But you can do some, if not all, of that yourself.

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:18:32 AM   
CarrieO


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Eleutherios,
I'm a switch, not a Domme but I'd like to give this a shot.
If this was asked of me...which it has once before...I would ask why?  I know you've given reasons for wanting to learn to not be so controlling in your day to day life, issues you think could be better handled and that you feel it could be "a life changing event" but I still ask why.  Why do you feel bottoming would be the answer to these problems?  You said you have no desire to submit and you're a dominant male so it would really only be bottoming.  Why would that help you with these issues more than talking with a therapist?  A  therapist will give you tools to work with in understanding and correcting negative (?) behaviors.  You would still need to do the work of changing these behaviors.
If you're as dominant of a man as you claim to be, no one...not even a dominant woman...could strip you bare of your control.  Of course, this is just my opinion and I'm sure there will be others that can offer more.  However, I would suggest you think more about the "why" and not focus so much on the end result. 

BTW....nice fire spinning pics. 

_____________________________

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:19:27 AM   
MistressAinCT


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Do you have a female top with whom you can discuss this?  Perhaps you can come to some kind of agreement as to her topping you (I know, you HATE that word, yadda yadda).  Maybe start slowly at first...with some touching, talking. 

Here's another thought (no pun): Meditation exercises.  Deep breathing, imagery, Reiki, anything that is of a relaxation technique.  Something that will help you visualize relinquishing control without having you physically do this.  Not hypnosis, but something that will allow you to go deeper.

What you might find with energy work is that you ARE able to give up some power without giving up ALL the power.  You can find a practitioner or do it yourself. 

Other than that I'm not sure what you are asking because people are making suggestions and you are shooting them down.  If you didn't want to hear what we had to say, why did you post?  Just an observation here.





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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:20:35 AM   
Eleutherios


Posts: 85
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From: Houston, Tx
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eleutherios

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

If you approached me with this request, I would probibly suggest you go to a theripist. They are trained to help people through something like this.


A reasonable suggestion, one I've considered. But a therapist can not strip me bare of my control over my self. 



I wanted to also add... I'm trained in therapy and psych... It's too easy for me to manipulate and deceive the therapist, even non-intentionally. I need someone domineering with strong will power that won't take no for an answer.

And don't worry... I'm well adjusted enough. My personal issues don't run so deep that I really need therapy. This is more about better my self as a person with new experiences and gaining wisdom.

Personally, if I was approached with such a request, I'd love the challenge... And I'd relish the opportunity to be a part of someone's personal growth. But I'm not most people.
And I'd really like to know the best way to go about approaching someone about this... From the dominant's perspective, I don't imagine she would really be required to do anything very out of the ordinary compared to how she usually dominates.


_____________________________

-E


~
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
—Thomas Jefferson—
~

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:25:14 AM   
MistressAinCT


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BTW-you don't have to be  physically masochistic to be mentally submissive.  BDSM doesn't necessarily have to be a physical thing.  But you probably already knew that, right?


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When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow www.mobiusmetals.webs.com

So many toys-so little flesh...

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:31:46 AM   
Eleutherios


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: Houston, Tx
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CarrieO

Eleutherios,
I'm a switch, not a Domme but I'd like to give this a shot.
If this was asked of me...which it has once before...I would ask why?  I know you've given reasons for wanting to learn to not be so controlling in your day to day life, issues you think could be better handled and that you feel it could be "a life changing event" but I still ask why.  Why do you feel bottoming would be the answer to these problems?  You said you have no desire to submit and you're a dominant male so it would really only be bottoming.  Why would that help you with these issues more than talking with a therapist?  A  therapist will give you tools to work with in understanding and correcting negative (?) behaviors.  You would still need to do the work of changing these behaviors.
If you're as dominant of a man as you claim to be, no one...not even a dominant woman...could strip you bare of your control.  Of course, this is just my opinion and I'm sure there will be others that can offer more.  However, I would suggest you think more about the "why" and not focus so much on the end result. 

BTW....nice fire spinning pics. 


Thanks for the reply, it's a good one. I appreciate hearing a switches perspective as well.

Why do I feel bottoming would be the answer to this?
Well, I'm pretty sure there are other ways to do this, but this is the way I most prefer because it would be the most profound and meaningful for me.
I'm a student of psychology, specifically regarding human sexuality. So this would be academically fascinating for me, as well as helping me gain a better understanding of my self.
My hope is that I could find a dominant female to do more than just top me. It might be more akin to a mentor relationship. Though, the goal is to submit to this person 24/7, not just sexually.

I'm fairly certain that any person can be made submissive under the right circumstances. It may require extreme circumstances, however. I feel mine is one of those circumstances. It might take someone with the skill of a trained military interrogator to break me! lol That's an exaggeration, perhaps, but not by too much.


_____________________________

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~
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
—Thomas Jefferson—
~

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:39:16 AM   
Eleutherios


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: Houston, Tx
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressAinCT

Do you have a female top with whom you can discuss this?  Perhaps you can come to some kind of agreement as to her topping you (I know, you HATE that word, yadda yadda).  Maybe start slowly at first...with some touching, talking. 

Here's another thought (no pun): Meditation exercises.  Deep breathing, imagery, Reiki, anything that is of a relaxation technique.  Something that will help you visualize relinquishing control without having you physically do this.  Not hypnosis, but something that will allow you to go deeper.

What you might find with energy work is that you ARE able to give up some power without giving up ALL the power.  You can find a practitioner or do it yourself. 

Other than that I'm not sure what you are asking because people are making suggestions and you are shooting them down.  If you didn't want to hear what we had to say, why did you post?  Just an observation here.


I apologize if I seem dismissive, but I have given this a significant amount of thought. So please don't think I am "shooting down" without giving it thought. I do appreciate all feed back and suggestions.

I'm actually a practitioner of Zen meditation, it has helped me leaps and bounds over the years, no doubt about that. I'm actually hoping to get something of a meditative experience by submitting to pain, objectification and humiliation. A head space akin to sub-space, perhaps. I think that might be quite freeing.

I don't hate the word "topping" ...how did I give that impression?


_____________________________

-E


~
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
—Thomas Jefferson—
~

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:53:44 AM   
CarrieO


Posts: 2432
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Eleutherios,
Thanks for the response. 
To be honest, I'm not sure if there are many women that would want to be part of an academic experiment.  The idea of a mentor is a good one. I have a male Dom who is my friend and mentor...no sex or play whatsoever, just someone to help me learn and understand and to bounce ideas off.  I can relate to the desire to explore your inner self but I still am uncertain as to how topping/bottoming...in a forced (?) way would help.  I'm still confused as to why you feel you need to be broken.  Exploration is great, getting a better handle on who you are as a person is fantastic but I still am left with "why".

Regardless....good luck and remember to keep an open mind with the responses you'll get here. 

*edited to add...My own views on dominance and submission are fairly open and free-flowing. I don't agree that a person can or should be "forced" to become one or the other, though.  Just my opinion.

< Message edited by CarrieO -- 2/23/2009 5:55:43 AM >


_____________________________

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:54:46 AM   
CatdeMedici


Posts: 2257
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

I know exactly what it feels like. And I hate it. I hate submitting in every aspect of my life. I do it, of course, as we all do from day to day. But I would be a much happier and well adjusted person if I could learn to be content when not in control.


It is the wise person who realizes they cannot master all things, there will always be someone better, faster, smarter. To learn the art of negotiation, give and take, thrust and parry is to understand how to maneuver through life-it does not denote any form of submission in the context of BDSM--in real life we are all submissives to something, someone--parents, employers, the government, etc etc etc--to feel that you are  less than because you cannot control it all IMHO is fool hardy and far from realistic.  To think you must control all is arrogance not the mark of a  Dominant, it is the mark of "domineering"--rule number one, learn the difference.
 
quote:

A reasonable suggestion, one I've considered. But a therapist can not strip me bare of my control over my self. 


Of course not, because for you it is a mental challenge, you must win at all costs to make up for the times in your life you are not in control--you will respond the same way with a Domina--an embittered battle of wills is never pretty. No they cannot strip you bare, but they can help you define a more productive way to use and accept it.



quote:

wanted to also add... I'm trained in therapy and psych... It's too easy for me to manipulate and deceive the therapist, even non-intentionally. I need someone domineering with strong will power that won't take no for an answer.


Always a response when someone is challenged, "i've been trained in xx so I know better"   mhm.  A good Dominant is NOT domineering--Dominance and submission is not a battle of wills where one is forced to acquiesce.  Dominance is only as good as the submission it inspires and vice versa. Its not a matter of Me not taking no for an answer its a matter that No is not an option. As a Dominant, I am far from omnipotent, My sub knows this, I would not have a sub who did think I was all knowing-what he does know and can DEPEND on is that I will always seek the information needed to make informed decisions, to guide him/Us and the family in an intelligent and realistic manner-even at times acquiescing. Just because chezz makes better meatballs or knows his way around New York, doesn't mean I am submissive to him in any manner, it means I am a smart cookie. Dominance is not breaking of the will, it is the melding into an environment of growth--but melding with permission.

quote:

And don't worry... I'm well adjusted enough. My personal issues don't run so deep that I really need therapy. This is more about better my self as a person with new experiences and gaining wisdom.


To gain wisdom, one must acknowledge that they know nothing, until you are there, it will always be your way or no way and that will never work.

quote:

Personally, if I was approached with such a request, I'd love the challenge
...

I don't see Dominance as a challenge nor would I, I am not here for a tug of war, I am here to lead, to blend, to help grow and to nurture-not for a conquest-conquests are boring, they are no win situations, I have to deal with those in everyday life, I don't expect them in My private  life. You may think you have thrown down the gauntlet, but I guarantee, many a wise Domina will say, "pfftt, nice gauntlet, have a nice day". A good D/s relationship is about each walking away with  some satisfaction, each putting skin in the game, each acquiescing in certain areas. I am afraid you have mistaken Female Dominance with those erotic ads with the man subdued with the boot heel.


quote:

And I'd relish the opportunity to be a part of someone's personal growth. But I'm not most people.
  We do and we are everyday, but I can assure you not to the battle of forcing someone to submit--that's where most fail--its not a battle of wills, its not the domineering bitch from hell--its a dance on the saber, carefully negotiated, carefully choreographed and carefully executed.

quote:

And I'd really like to know the best way to go about approaching someone about this... From the dominant's perspective, I don't imagine she would really be required to do anything very out of the ordinary compared to how she usually dominates.
It is very out of the ordinary--our subs come to us comfortable with their desire for submission, prepared for the acquiescence. The ones who come armed with passive aggressive dominance, pretty much don't make the buddy list, at least not Mine.

< Message edited by CatdeMedici -- 2/23/2009 5:58:56 AM >


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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:57:17 AM   
MistressAinCT


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Then I'm not sure what it is you are asking because I believe some of the suggestions here are valid.  You are or have been into psychotherapy, you practice Meditation, you have discussed this with other female Tops. 

I'm not sure what's left..I think the answer you need is inside you, not what's on this board. 

It could just be a matter of finding the RIGHT Top for you.  Someone you feel so at peace with you feel you can trust her with your submissive soul.  Ah, trust-I think we hit it on the head. 

Seems maybe-MAYBE-you have trust issues.  What will she do with the information?  Are you afraid, perhaps, someone will emotionally blackmail you-that "others" will find out you have this tender, submissive side?  Are you afraid you yourself will discover it?  Do you feel submissives are weak?

Again, its just an observation but I think you are looking here for an answer that just doens't exist anywhere but inside YOU.  Find HER, the One who will earn your trust, and you will probably have the experience you are looking for and embrace it, rather than run from it.

Namaste

_____________________________

When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow www.mobiusmetals.webs.com

So many toys-so little flesh...

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 5:58:31 AM   
SomethingCatchy


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If someone were to come to me with this idea, I'd have to ask - What's in it for me? I spend all this time, most likely being very frustrated because you say you are not submissive, trying to break down walls and get into your head, and what do I get in return? The satisfaction of knowing that I helped someone isn't enough for all that hard work. If it were a friend or family member I loved, I still wouldn't do it for a hand full of beans. I'd tell them to find a professional.

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 6:17:56 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
The pictures were interesting.  I'm glad someone pointed them out.

Eleutherios, I'm going to play something of devil's advocate for a moment.  Even if your intentions are exactly what you have describe here, you are now amongst the group of Dominant males who want to 'submit.'  This groups you with those who profess to wanting to be 'controlled' by a Dominant woman because they want to get laid, experience a strap on, dress in female attire, or get any other particular kink fulfilled for their own selfish reasons.  While your intentions in wishing to experience things on the other side of the kneel might be genuine, you are now grouped with the countless number of males who approach us with a similar request, but their reason for doing so is to get their rocks off.

Another issue you are going to face is that while you say you would welcome this proposal as "challenging," some people will see the situation as nothing but a potential pain in the ass.  When someone is proposing to put themselves in service to Me, I'm not looking for situations where I believe it is going to be a potential battle of wills on a continual basis.  The experience might be good for you, but at the same time, I could be investing My time in someone who truly enjoys service, making the arrangement more fulfilling for us both.

As for suggestions, the first that comes to mind is approaching with sincerity.  You're going to have to show whoever it is that you ask to consider this that you are genuine in your aspirations.  That you have a commitment to your endeavors.




_____________________________

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 6:29:11 AM   
Eleutherios


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: Houston, Tx
Status: offline
quote:

your inn
quote:

ORIGINAL: CarrieO

Eleutherios,
Thanks for the response. 
To be honest, I'm not sure if there are many women that would want to be part of an academic experiment.  The idea of a mentor is a good one. I have a male Dom who is my friend and mentor...no sex or play whatsoever, just someone to help me learn and understand and to bounce ideas off.  I can relate to the desire to explore your inner self but I still am uncertain as to how topping/bottoming...in a forced (?) way would help.  I'm still confused as to why you feel you need to be broken.  Exploration is great, getting a better handle on who you are as a person is fantastic but I still am left with "why".

Regardless....good luck and remember to keep an open mind with the responses you'll get here. 

*edited to add...My own views on dominance and submission are fairly open and free-flowing. I don't agree that a person can or should be "forced" to become one or the other, though.  Just my opinion.


I agree that a person should never be forced to submit.

As far as why, I'm not sure I can offer you more than I already  have, besides it's just the experience I want.

The bond I would develop with her would be deep and meaningful, hopefully for both of us. I want to make clear that I'm not looking for a "wham-bam-thank-ya-ma'am" kind of situation. I'm interested in a lasting and loyal friendship and close bond. My submission to her would be temporary, yes but I can't imagine just losing contact with someone like that, not after the having developed a bond like that.


_____________________________

-E


~
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
—Thomas Jefferson—
~

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RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 6:57:52 AM   
Eleutherios


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: Houston, Tx
Status: offline
CatdeMedici, it was brought to my attention that I might receive responses such as yours, but I thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify. I understand that this is not a terribly rare request, and everyone here likely sees it so often that they've become jaded towards the idea and are ready to assume the worst of anyone posing it. But you do bring up valid points that should be addressed. I hope I can cover them all to everyone's satisfaction.

I probably have not explained this very well so far because, although I have given it much thought, this is the first time I have materialized my thoughts in any medium. So, I'm still learning about what I want out of this, in a way. Please be patient with me and allow me to address what I think are probably misunderstandings due to my ineffective communication.

I realize I can not be master of all things. This isn't a new concept for me, though I have struggled with being content when not in control, I certainly realize it is a fact of life.
I am not an arrogant or domineering person at all. I'm not an obvious dominant. I am laid back and easy going. I don't mean to give the impression that I am a control freak in all my life. I think perhaps I overstated that aspect of why I want to learn to submit. I am not seeking to be fixed. I want to learn more about my self and share that experience with someone I care about, admire and respect.
You're assessment that I feel like I "must win at all costs to make up for times in my life I'm not in control" is completely inaccurate. I'm afraid I don't understand how you made that leap, but it truly does not describe me. I am a generally humble person, and I've never been competitive. It has nothing to do with "winning."
I have no desire to have a "battle of wills" the idea is actually quite a turn off. What I desire is a give and take.
I do not think I've laid down any gauntlet. I described it as a challenge, it would probably be better described as an opportunity. Were I to hear such a request, I would appreciate the opportunity to get to know someone well enough to help them grow. I guess I call it a challenge simply because it requires effort and patience. Not because I would fight with my mentor. Does that make more sense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

quote:

I know exactly what it feels like. And I hate it. I hate submitting in every aspect of my life. I do it, of course, as we all do from day to day. But I would be a much happier and well adjusted person if I could learn to be content when not in control.


It is the wise person who realizes they cannot master all things, there will always be someone better, faster, smarter. To learn the art of negotiation, give and take, thrust and parry is to understand how to maneuver through life-it does not denote any form of submission in the context of BDSM--in real life we are all submissives to something, someone--parents, employers, the government, etc etc etc--to feel that you are  less than because you cannot control it all IMHO is fool hardy and far from realistic.  To think you must control all is arrogance not the mark of a  Dominant, it is the mark of "domineering"--rule number one, learn the difference.
 
quote:

A reasonable suggestion, one I've considered. But a therapist can not strip me bare of my control over my self. 


Of course not, because for you it is a mental challenge, you must win at all costs to make up for the times in your life you are not in control--you will respond the same way with a Domina--an embittered battle of wills is never pretty. No they cannot strip you bare, but they can help you define a more productive way to use and accept it.



quote:

wanted to also add... I'm trained in therapy and psych... It's too easy for me to manipulate and deceive the therapist, even non-intentionally. I need someone domineering with strong will power that won't take no for an answer.


Always a response when someone is challenged, "i've been trained in xx so I know better"   mhm.  A good Dominant is NOT domineering--Dominance and submission is not a battle of wills where one is forced to acquiesce.  Dominance is only as good as the submission it inspires and vice versa. Its not a matter of Me not taking no for an answer its a matter that No is not an option. As a Dominant, I am far from omnipotent, My sub knows this, I would not have a sub who did think I was all knowing-what he does know and can DEPEND on is that I will always seek the information needed to make informed decisions, to guide him/Us and the family in an intelligent and realistic manner-even at times acquiescing. Just because chezz makes better meatballs or knows his way around New York, doesn't mean I am submissive to him in any manner, it means I am a smart cookie. Dominance is not breaking of the will, it is the melding into an environment of growth--but melding with permission.

quote:

And don't worry... I'm well adjusted enough. My personal issues don't run so deep that I really need therapy. This is more about better my self as a person with new experiences and gaining wisdom.


To gain wisdom, one must acknowledge that they know nothing, until you are there, it will always be your way or no way and that will never work.

quote:

Personally, if I was approached with such a request, I'd love the challenge
...

I don't see Dominance as a challenge nor would I, I am not here for a tug of war, I am here to lead, to blend, to help grow and to nurture-not for a conquest-conquests are boring, they are no win situations, I have to deal with those in everyday life, I don't expect them in My private  life. You may think you have thrown down the gauntlet, but I guarantee, many a wise Domina will say, "pfftt, nice gauntlet, have a nice day". A good D/s relationship is about each walking away with  some satisfaction, each putting skin in the game, each acquiescing in certain areas. I am afraid you have mistaken Female Dominance with those erotic ads with the man subdued with the boot heel.


quote:

And I'd relish the opportunity to be a part of someone's personal growth. But I'm not most people.
  We do and we are everyday, but I can assure you not to the battle of forcing someone to submit--that's where most fail--its not a battle of wills, its not the domineering bitch from hell--its a dance on the saber, carefully negotiated, carefully choreographed and carefully executed.

quote:

And I'd really like to know the best way to go about approaching someone about this... From the dominant's perspective, I don't imagine she would really be required to do anything very out of the ordinary compared to how she usually dominates.
It is very out of the ordinary--our subs come to us comfortable with their desire for submission, prepared for the acquiescence. The ones who come armed with passive aggressive dominance, pretty much don't make the buddy list, at least not Mine.


_____________________________

-E


~
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
—Thomas Jefferson—
~

(in reply to CatdeMedici)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Ladies, opinions please - 2/23/2009 7:05:40 AM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
Fast reply:  It's a realistic request and also, I might add, a very common one.  I've been asked to do this by many male dominant friends, although I never thought their motives were as pure as yours seem to be:  there was much more of a personal element to it in those cases.  If you've formed a close friendship with a dominant woman, you can probably ask her about it safely so long as you frame the issue as you have here.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to Eleutherios)
Profile   Post #: 20
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