RE: The Captain Kirk's

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apple2 -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 12:55:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I think it's important to remember the past, regardless of the topic or situation. I also think that times change, and we old dinosaurs have to learn to adapt somewhat---and keep on pushing the good things down these whippersnappers' throats! Keep your hands to yourselves! Clean up your mess! Fire burns! Who knows what the scene will look like in another twenty years? Those of us who actually answered ads in magazines will be like pioneers. :) Eeek. I used to peruse the call board at The Pleasure Chest in Chicago before there were any clubs or munches (Or before I was privvy to them). Long time ago now. Personally, I think anyone who has joined the scene after 2000 needs to get their fannies to visit the Leather Archives and Museum in Chicago. It's unfortunate, but a lot of people don't know where they come from or why things are the way they are. The LA&M can fill in some of the gaps. In 20 years however, there may not be a need for a history. It might be that what we do might be accepted. But then again- the gay community hasn't forgotten the Stonewall riots... So who knows.

littlesarbonn -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 7:11:04 AM)
Some people paved the way more than others. The problem for me is that there are too many who think they paved the way for everyone else, but all they really did was hog the spotlight in the past, and now want to hog the spotlight in the present, as if they did something to earn that spotlight. A lot of the paving of this community has been done behind the scenes, in places no one even knows things were happening. Rarely are those people given credit because most people just see the flashy ones that like to take up as much credit as they can get.

feydeplume -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 7:14:36 AM)
quote: Leather Archives and Museum in Chicago i heart their timeline. I am always ready to learn something new (well after the first cup or so of coffee and with adequate sleep), and them and the sexology institutes are just amazingly rich with info about all sorts of things having to do with being human.

CreativeDominant -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 7:46:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: junecleaver quote: Because common manners dictates that you respect those who faced the brunt of society's disapproval so that you could exist within that same society with a much lower level of disapproval? Because common sense should tell you that we got to where we did by dint of our own hard work? That common sense should tell you that they don't just give you a doctorate like mine or anyone else who holds one and, if nothing else, the work that I put into that alone should be worthy of some respect...never mind the years I've spent working under that degree? I was speaking in terms of the BDSM community, maybe I should have made that a little more clear. I have a tremendous amount of respect for well-educated people and I hope to get there myself one day. I have respect for people who own and operate their own business. I have certain amount of respect that I feel everyone deserves as human beings. Will I worship a leader in the BDSM community because everyone else does? Tell them their scenes are awesome and their posts are amazing because everyone else does? Tolerate their whining or gossiping because a lot of people think they are important? No. Basically...telling me I should think you are important because I'm younger than you...will not make me feel you are important. For instance....you have a degree and the medical knowledge to deserve my respect. I have met people in the scene who did not have the emotional maturity or skill sets deserving to be honored. It doesn't matter how long they have been kinky to me. And what does it take to be honored...respected...by you? If it is not age and experience as exemplified in the majority of cases where someone has become a leader, then what is it? If it is not age and experience in those who are NOT leaders, what is it? You stated that immaturity doesn't earn your respect and it should not. You also state that someone expecting respect "just because" they are older doesn't deserve it and if that is the SOLE reason, you are right...but I can't help but wonder; is that their expectation or one that you, like many young people, seem to "lay" on us older folks? quote: You are right in that you don't automatically walk in and honor a community's leaders...because rather than being taught that, contrary to populist opinion, it DOES take ability and smarts to be a leader, you've been taught that those in charge just got lucky. I understand that with each person that I care to interact with, I might have to show them that I have the ability to do so but how exactly would you have me do that? Have you come in and watch me treat another patient? All that shows you is that I can...it doesn't show you whether or not I am any good at it. Show you my appointment book? All that shows is that the people coming to see me believe in me enough to return. But that doesn't "show" my ability to you, does it? How about the fact that I have been in practice for 26 years and have built it back up twice? Just lucky, right? Couldn't be from some ability that has not been shown to YOU yet, could it? Once again, I was speaking about the BDSM community. Does the fact that everyone worships the football star in high school really mean he's worth worshipping?What you perceive as worship may in fact may be admiration, adoration that seems to approach worship(in the case of some teenage girls), and/or respect for the young man's talents and abilities. Does he automatically earn iyour disdain because you don't feel that football is important in the overall rof things or because what he does doesn't benefit you? quote: I feel a similar phenomenom happens in the BDSM community, honestly. I'd like you to go into more specifics about that. Does the respect that people have for leaders in BDSM like Midori, Jay Wiseman, Devon/Miller, Liszt and all those who lead their local communities but who are not big names come off as duly-earned to you...or is this some of the worship you speak of? If the latter, I suggest that you might wish to reconsider your definition of worship. Or again, is it because what they do or have done has not DIRECTLY benefitted you? quote: I'm sure you have all the tools you need to be in practice, etc. It doesn't really relate to what I was speaking about. quote: But is that what they are really miffed at? What I see with a lot of young people is an assumption...in many cases, a mistaken one...that an air of confidence and assurance is an attitude of entitlement or superiority when it is neither. It is a hard-won, well-earned feeling of assurance and confidence in one's self because we HAVE fought the battles, whether it be in learning how to dominate/submit, how to build our business and keep it going or turn it back around when it needs to be, or in how to be a good mom/dad and not just a mother/father. We've done all that and you haven't...why should we not have an attitude of confidence and victory and assurance tempered by our losses that you DON'T have yet? Why should we not expect respect, as a common courtesy if nothing else, for those achievements? I don't much care for medical doctors...way too much surgery and way too much reliance on chemicals rather than an emphasis on wellness...but I respect what it took to get where they are and to build the practice THEY have. Why should you not expect respect? Well...because that's the easiest way to not get it? Telling me I owe you something for living your life, following your own path, and perusing what makes you feel fulfilled will not make me respect you. You did what you did for yourself and maybe for the people close to you. I'm not close to you. I don't know you. I doubt anything you ever did benefitted me in any way really. Maybe I could learn something from reading your posts. Aside from that, I just don't understand exactly how you braved this harsh disapproval and it benefited me? When one of these "dinosaurs" can explain to my parents why BDSM is okay, when they can make my friends accept it without blinking...then I will say thank you. Otherwise...I don't really understand why I should 'honor' them for anything other than what I feel merits it. O.K., so the fact that I am older and more experienced and mature doesn't earn your respect, the fact that neither I nor my peers or those before us have been able to make BDSM totally acceptable to your friends or your parents means that they don't earn your respect. The rules of common courtesy that state that you should at least give people the respect that you feel YOU deserve as a human being are ignored. What DOES earn your respect? An action taken to benefit you directly? That would seem to be the most important thing from your words. Self-absorbed self-interest...appeal to that, satisfy that, and someone might earn respect. Perhaps I am wrong but other than your own words expressing that benefitting you directly earns your respect, I see no other answers.

feydeplume -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 7:56:34 AM)
True. But happily many of those hogging the spotlight make for good poster fodder. Some don't and when you run into one of those, the desire to treat them as an immature attention whore is really strong. And then there are those thousands of us that just showed up, bulked out the crowd, make the media pan the camera rather than just focus on the spokesperson. We may not be named everywhere, but we were there and we were part of what gave credence to the spokesperson. And we had a ball doing it.

feydeplume -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 8:02:51 AM)
oh we had the wheel all right.. 5 or 6 points of contact and "spin the subby", although i think we called it something else at the time and were armed with nerf guns. And we had electricity, just not so many attachments or so many kits. And then there were tazers....

junecleaver -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 11:43:53 AM)
quote: Perhaps I am wrong but other than your own words expressing that benefitting you directly earns your respect, I see no other answers. Yes, you are wrong. You've pretty much taken what I said out of context. Once again, place it in the context of the BDSM community. I'll tackle the personal statements about me first... I do give others the respect I feel I deserve. What I do not give them is gratitude/honor for things they feel they did/discovered/pioneered, when I feel differently. Hard to believe...but you can disagree with someone and still respect them. Of course, this is a concept my mother and many authority figures I had as a child couldn't reconcile. No one automatically earns my disdain. They do something to lose it. I give basic respect...like making eye-contact, being friendly, not encroaching personal space, not interrupting the person speaking, not gossiping...inside and outside of BDSM circles. Benefitting me directly does not necessarily earn my respect. Although, I am certainly grateful to the people in my life who have taught me and helped me along my own path, both alive and dead. A person who is worthy of my respect is...a person worthy of my respect lol. I'm not going to give detailed description..but it's someone who again within the context of BDSM...has the kinky skills, the relationship skills, and the integretity. It is definitely not someone who feels the need to constantly point to how cool old guard pre-internet secret leather meeting gay bar protocol whatever they are or tells me to be grateful for the fact they spent their life following their own path which happens to involve BDSM. I don't respect them because of their ATTITUDE of entitlement, particularly when they have done nothing more than fulfill themselves...not because they didn't benefit me. I see a lot of kinky smart and emotionally dumb people in the scene. But then again...I see a lot of emotionally dumb people in RL. It is the emotionally mature people with amazing communication skills that garner my respect. I very seriously doubt anyone like Jay Wisemen or Midori would demand my honor or more respect than the average human deserves from me, a person they do not know and to whom they have no ties. They don't need to shout out about how much people should respect them, because they are already getting the respect in the quantity they deserve. That's what usually happens when people are deserving, the respect becomes a natural response of their peers. Worship was a little bit of a hyperbole. The point I was trying to make with the football jock example is.... people who don't even appreciate football 'worship' the football jock...not in appreciation of his skills but as a way to fit in. So if a teenage girl tells me about what an amazing football player and therefore amazing person the jock must be...is that credible? Well, she knows nothing of football or him. Sometimes, we can handle leadership in a similar way. You haven't made BDSM acceptable to my parents or my friends. You probably won't. When you can get the average churchy baptist-y community to accept BDSM, then I will give you a big gold star to represent my own personal respect and admiration. So in summation... quote: The problem for me is that there are too many who think they paved the way for everyone else, but all they really did was hog the spotlight in the past, and now want to hog the spotlight in the present, as if they did something to earn that spotlight. What he said... Oh and feydeplume...you know you're not yet too much of a 'dino' to get into my TNG group? ;)

feydeplume -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 12:01:46 PM)
quote: It is definitely not someone who feels the need to constantly point to how cool old guard pre-internet secret leather meeting gay bar protocol whatever they are or tells me to be grateful for the fact they spent their life following their own path which happens to involve BDSM. Most (all?) of the people that have spoken here are not gay males, are not old guard, and would laugh loudly at the idea of a secret leather meeting bar protocol. yes many of us are pre-internet. But yanno what? so are the people that made this site and facebook, and google, and youtube. No need to be greatful since, in many cases, they are just doing it to make a buck or two, for the fuck and fun of it. I guess I am having some trouble understanding why you deserve respect for living your life the way you want which happens to involve BDSM and other people don't. I may not be to old for TNG and frankly i enjoy hanging with them. Many of my real life friends are younger than me just as many are older. I am just sorry when the younger ones start bashing the dinosaurs for not doing more and better and doing it wrong and not understanding the real nature of this or that. I try to be understanding since you guys gotta make your own world and your own myths and have your own heros and face your own battles. Sometimes I just worry that by not knowing history, you will be doomed to repeat it. But i keep my mouth shut until someone asks. Oh and Midori would kick your ass for acting like this. She would full on laugh in your face and tell you to go be a good little nilla girl if she was in one of her moods. Lee would point out that you need to resolve your anger issues so that you don't taint the whole experience and Jay would either stare at your tits or walk away mid sentance out of your mouth.

junecleaver -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 12:35:08 PM)
wrong post. started this post twice. :(

phoenixrising43 -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 12:55:54 PM)
Sorry but in my view, the BDSM "community" is just another small fish in a big pond, just like any other group or subculture out there. I personally think that people that self-sacrifice and do really good things for the betterment of mankind as a whole deserve real respect. Don't get me wrong, munches, sigs, events, parties and so forth are great and good fun, but they are not the be all and end all in life either.

junecleaver -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 12:59:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: feydeplume Most (all?) of the people that have spoken here are not gay males, are not old guard, and would laugh loudly at the idea of a secret leather meeting bar protocol. Unfortunately, people are rarely ever that obvious or transparent. Certainly, I did not mean to imply that EVERY leader, EVERY dinosaur was the same. quote: yes many of us are pre-internet. But yanno what? so are the people that made this site and facebook, and google, and youtube. No need to be greatful since, in many cases, they are just doing it to make a buck or two, for the fuck and fun of it. If you are not being sarcastic...then you completely get my point. quote: I guess I am having some trouble understanding why you deserve respect for living your life the way you want which happens to involve BDSM and other people don't. I don't deserve respect for that and (hopefully) in thirty years I won't feel entitled to it. I feel that I do deserve a common human respect...as I am well human. Anything beyond that...I am willing to wait until the person has decided for themselves. We are all pursuing our own pathes for our own purposes, not to be the kinky mother theresa or 'captain kirk.' Hence why I feel no need to treat someone like a saint or a hero. quote: I am just sorry when the younger ones start bashing the dinosaurs for not doing more and better and doing it wrong and not understanding the real nature of this or that. Is this in reference to me? If so, I'm not dinosaur bashing. The attitude of entiltement is just as ugly in my own friends who think that mommy and daddy should pay for everything or that life in the real world should be as easy for them as high school and college. It's ugly in myself even at times. I really don't care how long someone has been in the scene which is why I would neither honor or not honor based on it. quote: Oh and Midori would kick your ass for acting like this. She would full on laugh in your face and tell you to go be a good little nilla girl if she was in one of her moods. Lee would point out that you need to resolve your anger issues so that you don't taint the whole experience and Jay would either stare at your tits or walk away mid sentance out of your mouth. Well...I don't know them at all so I don't refer to them by just their first name as that would be weird... I'm not angry. I disagree. You can disagree and not be angry or disrespectful. I reread my post and I don't see where you got 'angry' from? Maybe you can help me understand exactly what I said that came across that way. If my disagreement makes me a little 'nilla girl...then, so be it? I don't see a point in proving my...um...kinkyness or pretending to agree so people will accept me. I don't have anger issues. My tits are definitely stare-able though. I don't see any of them running in the same small-time kinky circles I do so I guess we will never know? I hope you don't feel that I called you out. It was just a joke because I noticed your age. It was a friendly gesture between TNGer and 'dinosaur' and I hope it wasn't understood as anything more/less than that.

junecleaver -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 1:00:45 PM)
That is a very well-balanced way of looking at it.

agirl -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 1:05:52 PM)
Why would anyone kick her arse? She's given her point of view in a calm and clear manner without a hint of rudeness. I'm not a youngster and I hold the same opinion regarding respect. I don't need to have an indepth knowledge of the history of bdsm or D/s to live it how I wish to. It's seems a little rude to lump june in with the you guys as if she has anything to do with any other young person you know. agirl

feydeplume -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 1:13:53 PM)
this being the purely written medium, I can't see if you are smiling, doing a little hip shot, shrugging your shoulders or whatever. The tone of your words is intense and, this the the key, YOU chose to jump into a thread of of old folks talking about being old folks. So you came into our playground and told us we didn't deserve anything from you. That act implied that we didn't even have the "right" to have our feelings about how much things have changed and talk about our glory days without the kindernazi jumping our shit. Not once did your words say anything to soften your implied disdain for us and for our feelings. Not once have you noticed or commented on the fact that you get to post on a website like this because of us. As i said (so many times now) no one asked for your respect or thanks, but you could show this so called general courtesy and go post somewhere else. Ask yourself, why do you feel the need to jump in on this thread and use word choices that demean and belittle us? Why did you even bother to jump in at all? Do you also jump in on thread where cross dressing men are complaining about how hard it is to find the right size shoe and tell them to get over it? Do you jump in on Pro Domme discussions and tell them they are advertising in the all the wrong places? I am STILL giving you the benefit of the doubt that you don't get how your words come across and how your actions of posting and arguing come across. I am guessing you have some reason for wanting to interact with the dinosaurs and the Kirks on this site. I don't know and won't try to guess what it is, but there is some reason that you bothered to post and to come back again and again. What i meant by Midori et al is that if you pulled this attitude (the tone of your words, the hijacking of the conversation, the attention garnering behavior) in person, there is a good chance that they would respond to you the way i suggested. I am not name dropping to name drop, I am name dropping because you imtimated that there ARE some people worthy of respect due purely to their BDSM work and i wanted to give you an idea of what your behavior would look like to these people. btw, do you run you TNG group or are you real active? I really do love to hear about communities and how they grow and work together and (guilty pleasure) the laughable moments when the suspention fails, the sound system goes haywire, the sub flying so high they walk into a wall or forget why then headed to the bathroom, or any of the other silly things that happen. Until or if we ever meet in person, I will continue to give the benefit of the doubt; that your language choice was just because you are an intense person, that jumping in here was an attempt to understand or learn or see something from another perspective.

phoenixrising43 -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 1:43:01 PM)
I didn't see what there was to get worked up over what June wrote. I think age is relative anyway. To me, someone who is 35 is a kid....lol. Heck I still call my nieces and nephews kids and they are between the ages of 21 and 31. Someone who is 60 may consider me a kid as well. So much for dinosaurs anyway. We all learn and grow at varying times in our lives, sometimes in spurts and sometimes over long lengths of time. The only thing workshops and demos can teach me is a fun new technique or interesting idea to try out. The parties are fun to just socialize at and meet others. Most people, not all though, already live by a code of honor that works in their own lives. And there are blowhards and "watch me and what I can do and teach you" types everywhere. Just like there are people who do love sharing what they know one on one as well. Definitely not stating that everyone that teaches at workshops and demos are showoffs and blowhards either. People are just people. You get all kinds everywhere. How one person does things is not better than another. Though their technique could of course be better...lol. But then there is always practice and improvement. [:D]

LadyPact -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 1:53:47 PM)
Actually, those folks who are starting up those TNG groups all across the country fit. They are opening up the venues for the 18-21 year olds. They deserve as much praise as the book writers, people doing the demos, club owners, and the rest. I can appreciate anyone who's opening new territory. ETA.... I'm going to say it again. You folks have definitely turned a little BS into a great discussion. My hat is off to you!

philosophy -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 1:59:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval Way back in the ole times before we had electricity or the wheel...[;)] .....yup, i never liked cars with squares, and i'm glad i don't have to watch TV by candlelight anymore......

LaTigresse -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 2:15:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Are those of us who explored this world seen the end of an era? Are we dinosaurs? Has our time come to an end? In some ways, I think so. BDSM, fetish, kink, et cetera has become so pervasive and overexposed as the stuff of "alternative lifestyles" that it has all reached a sort of campy acceptance in the collective conscience of society. I'm fully aware I'm a bit cynical on the subject, but I do think some of that cynicism is justifiable, considering the hipness these "alt" ideas have gained. I just avoid the esoteric short-hand and special watchwords altogether when speaking of what I practice. For me, it's not about theatrics, sexual expression or lifestyle activism. It's about the psychological aspects of influence, control, discipline, authority, servitude and so on. Abscond the t-shirts and you don't need to be trapped in time. I'd say don't see it as something recently invented and explored; see it as something very, very old, for in reality, it really is. Marc has expressed my point of view perfectly. I don't subscribe to the whole "lifestyle" idea. I live my life, that's my style. What I do at home, behind closed doors, with people I care about, is my business. How I structure my relationships is my business. Mine and the people involved in my life. I've never been one to need any sort of public acceptance or want a public display. It isn't my style. I've got nothing to prove. As far as giving any kudos....I guess I don't really. Human beings are constantly evolving. Sometimes it's for the better, sometimes it isn't. It seems natural that sexuality and all that it entails would also evolve. Yes, I know that there are people that worked very hard and sacrificed to make something more acceptable. Yet, I wonder, is there always a need to make it acceptable for public consumption. Sometimes, somethings, yes......but not always. I don't want to walk down a street in leather chaps with my ass hanging out, a couple of naked slaves on leashes in one hand, a whip in another, and get "you go girl"s from all passersby. I also don't want to see it. It's personal, private, relationship stuff.

hopelessfool -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 2:31:40 PM)
First off in MANY towns and states bdsm ISNT accepted. Meaning you didnt make it easier for people to live their lives as they wish to live their lives. Its STILL considered assault if someone catches you hitting another person. You still can have your ums taken away because of your "lifestyle" choice. Not all that terrible much has changed because of your generation. Sure you might have brought it to light, you might have brought information to the table, but its still not widely accepted and people of this generation have brought light as well as information to the table. Second it wasnt the 'dinosaur' that brought about sites like this. It was the invention of the internet, and if i remember my comhis classes the internet wasnt invented by someone kinky. Personally what i find offensive is someone thinking that just because they are over 30 or over 40 they are now old, and oh god the world is ending. I dont think anyone in the lifestyle is a 'dinosaur' I also dont think that someone 40 years old automatically knows more about kink or how to do something better then someone 20 years old. My scars from messed up scenes from my niave thought that an older man would know what he is doing better then a younger one, is proof of age not meaning SHIT. Its not easier now, it wasnt harder then, it wasnt easier then, its not harder now. Its UNIQUE to the people involved. You experiencing the world right now is totally different then how im experiencing it. It has nothing to do with my age, but simply with the differences in upbringings. Just like If i stand side by side with 50 other 20 year olds, how we are experinceing the world, will be different from person to person.

SimplyMichael -> RE: The Captain Kirk's (2/26/2009 2:35:50 PM)
Besides, if I was going to be a character from StarTrek, it would either be some battle scarred old Klingon, someone like Martock, missing one eye but a being with a deep well of humanity under the grim exterior and a wife who is both beautiful and cunning, or Sisko, a shrewed charismatic leader who knows how to bribe without being bought, comprimise without undermining his goals, and who loves and fights with the same intense passion.

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