quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslave

fantasy brings people together - it is when those fantasies are acted out that it becomes reality. that is the nature of bdsm.

enslavement is only really enslavement when acceptance is total and glitches dont cause the enslaved or the enslaver to look for the exit door.  the exit door is always there its whether you bend to the disparities and continue.  if you dont, if you keep the exit door in youre sights, then youre not fully enslaved and you never were.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

hwta does gor have to do with thie discussion, kittin?

make that "what".. lol

quote:

I should have explained myself a bit better. :)
My mention of fear had to do with emotional fears, not physical safety. Also, the one place I am unsure of its existance, is in a balanced D/s dynamic, where two or more individuals have knowingly consented and things are going well. The word “knowingly” being the difference between a D/s dynamic and the wife who stays with her husband because “It is my marriage”, or “the kids need their dad”. In both cases, there is an underlying reason for the person to stay.
I have a hard time relating to your comment about being controlled by love. For me, love is just as good a reason to leave, as it is to stay. Another concept I have a hard time relating to is being controlled by another. I have tried to find a time when, as an adult, it has not ultimately boiled down to being my choice, but failed. This is why I believe slavery is about deferring choice, not control.
While writing this, I have been considering another kind of fear that that “keeps” the slave (diligent in their responsibilities toward their master); for me, it is failure to fulfill purpose.
I have to disagree with it being about semantics, it is about finding truth.
Maybe I’m wrong; aren’t laws just someone’s perception of a good idea, given reverence by other’s approval?
Kim

quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut
I think we would all agree that legally you cannot own a person.
I think we would all agree that legally you cannot beat a person, consensual or not.
I think we would all agree that noone has the legal right to do anything to a person, make a person do anything etc.
(I'm sure there are exceptions but i'm talking in general).

Now in D/s, M/s, BDSM, whatever you want to call it we often speak of or hear spoken:-

I am an owned sub / slave.
I own a sub / slave.
I can beat my slave.
I can be beaten by Sir etc.
I gave up all my rights to Sir etc.
I have all rights over my sub / slave.
(All consensual of course).

In a world that is as clear cut as the above is all D/s, M/s, BDSM etc just fantasy?

quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslave

if you keep the exit door in youre sights, then youre not fully enslaved and you never were.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian


A great deal of it is, and that's perfectly fine for most. I don't think ninety percent of the BDSM or even D/s crowd really wants to make things that real.

There is of course the minority on the ruby edge of the pool that seeks precisely what others dismiss as "fantasy". To that malignant cynicism I can say only this: nearly all human deeds and accomplishments of note begin with a fantasy—with a dream, and often one others berate. The poet James Broughton once wrote, "the only limits are, as always, those of vision," and I entirely agree. That one cannot possibly conceive of or accept the possibility of something is more a testament to their own intellectual laziness. We should perhaps consider the fact that law alone does not have the final say in what is real or not; that is a depressingly fascist notion, and coming from a group of people who identify with living alternative lifestyles, I'm always somewhat taken aback when someone within it brandishes that reasoning like a sword of truth. Law attempts to modify social behavior. It creates realities, true, but is not the sole author of them. There are plenty of daily things people do and wish for which are, for all intents and purposes, illegal. That does not make their actions any less real.

- - -

Edited to add: I tend to steer away from terms like "own", as this is more of a legal idea, though I will admit ownership has more than one dimension, and each is just as tangible, if authentic.

quote:

A great deal of it is, and that's perfectly fine for most. I don't think ninety percent of the BDSM or even D/s crowd really wants to make things that real.

There is of course the minority on the ruby edge of the pool that seeks precisely what others dismiss as "fantasy". To that malignant cynicism I can say only this: nearly all human deeds and accomplishments of note begin with a fantasy—with a dream, and often one others berate. The poet James Broughton once wrote, "the only limits are, as always, those of vision," and I entirely agree. That one cannot possibly conceive of or accept the possibility of something is more a testament to their own intellectual laziness. We should perhaps consider the fact that law alone does not have the final say in what is real or not; that is a depressingly fascist notion, and coming from a group of people who identify with living alternative lifestyles, I'm always somewhat taken aback when someone within it brandishes that reasoning like a sword of truth. Law attempts to modify social behavior. It creates realities, true, but is not the sole author of them. There are plenty of daily things people do and wish for which are, for all intents and purposes, illegal. That does not make their actions any less real.

- - -

Edited to add: I tend to steer away from terms like "own", as this is more of a legal idea, though I will admit ownership has more than one dimension, and each is just as tangible, if authentic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

It is interesting what you propose about "failure to fulfill purpose" that could certainly be a reason that some become enslaved, or at least a part of the dynamic. How do you mean that emotional fears could contribute? Would you mind expanding on that.

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I find it quite fascinating that you find love a reason to leave.

quote:

I think it's interesting that there are so many facets to slavery and what keeps people there. I'm not sure that there is a truth to be found though. I think it's one of those ephemeral things like religion and god that can't be proved no matter how long it's debated.

quote:

Sometimes the truth is that there is more than one truth.
As the African tale of a red and green hat shows, half the village may have seen the red side of the hat and the other half may have seen the green, and be totally convinced of the color of the hat, but in actuality if they could have seen the other side also, they would see that both truths are correct and can exist simultaneously even appearing to be in direct contrast.

quote:

I like that line about laws being "just someone’s perception of a good idea, given reverence by other’s approval", lol.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
A great deal of it is, and that's perfectly fine for most. I don't think ninety percent of the BDSM or even D/s crowd really wants to make things that real.

There is of course the minority on the ruby edge of the pool that seeks precisely what others dismiss as "fantasy". To that malignant cynicism I can say only this: nearly all human deeds and accomplishments of note begin with a fantasy—with a dream, and often one others berate. The poet James Broughton once wrote, "the only limits are, as always, those of vision," and I entirely agree. That one cannot possibly conceive of or accept the possibility of something is more a testament to their own intellectual laziness. We should perhaps consider the fact that law alone does not have the final say in what is real or not; that is a depressingly fascist notion, and coming from a group of people who identify with living alternative lifestyles, I'm always somewhat taken aback when someone within it brandishes that reasoning like a sword of truth. Law attempts to modify social behavior. It creates realities, true, but is not the sole author of them. There are plenty of daily things people do and wish for which are, for all intents and purposes, illegal. That does not make their actions any less real.

- - -

Edited to add: I tend to steer away from terms like "own", as this is more of a legal idea, though I will admit ownership has more than one dimension, and each is just as tangible, if authentic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
"A great deal of it is, and that's perfectly fine for most. I don't think ninety percent of the BDSM or even D/s crowd really wants to make things that real.

There is of course the minority on the ruby edge of the pool that seeks precisely what others dismiss as "fantasy". To that malignant cynicism I can say only this: nearly all human deeds and accomplishments of note begin with a fantasy—with a dream, and often one others berate. The poet James Broughton once wrote, "the only limits are, as always, those of vision," and I entirely agree. That one cannot possibly conceive of or accept the possibility of something is more a testament to their own intellectual laziness. We should perhaps consider the fact that law alone does not have the final say in what is real or not; that is a depressingly fascist notion, and coming from a group of people who identify with living alternative lifestyles, I'm always somewhat taken aback when someone within it brandishes that reasoning like a sword of truth. Law attempts to modify social behavior. It creates realities, true, but is not the sole author of them. There are plenty of daily things people do and wish for which are, for all intents and purposes, illegal. That does not make their actions any less real.

- - -

Edited to add: I tend to steer away from terms like "own", as this is more of a legal idea, though I will admit ownership has more than one dimension, and each is just as tangible, if authentic. "

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslave

if you keep the exit door in youre sights, then youre not fully enslaved and you never were.

What if the ms couple have a wonderful 10-year, or six-month for that matter, relationship, and then break up?   At one point or another, they saw the exit door and used it.  Does that mean they were never actually master and slave?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Marie, the exit door is always there, within sight.  Even if you choose to ignore it.  Same thing can be done with 800 lb. gorillas.
 
John