RE: Reality or fantasy?

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OrionTheWolf -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 4:46:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut quote: I agree that the rarity is the slave that is so internally enslaved that the choice to leave is not there. Many that do not practice, nor have experienced internal enslavement truly understand it. I thought I did long ago, but until it occured and I mastered a slave to that extent, I did not truly understand it. I do not demand that others accept or understand it. I can see what you are saying and understand it, believe me. However the choice to leave is always there whether we take it or not. Not to play semantics, but a better word would be option. Yes the option is always there. To believe otherwise would be untruthful. quote: quote: Who cares what others think. They can keep their own perceptions, which may or may not be truth. As threads like this show many people care what others think. Also when posting you open yourself up to what others think of what you have said, you lay yourself wide open for their opinion. Theirs perceptions, right or wrong are just as valid as anyones and just as true for them. It's how you handle other peoples opinions, perceptions when faced with them that is the point. Can you (generic) accept they have their own vision, perception, truth or will you (generic) blast them and become defensive, defending your way as the one and true way? Actually I disagree. A person's opinion, when not supported by fact, is only valid if it is given validitity. I let people do as they wish, until it enters and interferes with my sphere of responsibility. I never said that it was not true for them, because that is their perception. We can always go to the age old philosophical debate of truth is perception, but that gains us nothing. Just as in my example I gave, truth is dependent upon perception. Your truth concerning what you think, feel and believe, is seperate from mine. Somewhere in the middle comes communication and understanding. Good topic by the way.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 4:59:03 PM)
This is actually an excellent point, that many will overlook, but came across very profound to me. quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Reality is still constrained by the possible. John

InTonguesslut -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 5:04:49 PM)
quote: Somewhere in the middle comes communication and understanding. Ideally, yes [:D]

Rover -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 5:53:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf It has not been concluded. She thought she could at one point early on, and returned begging and crying. An incident several months back had her sitting at the door crying because she realized she did not have permission to leave. Once her emotional episode passed, communication was able to resume and problem was settled. She realized that she was miserable, stressed, and depressed without my mastery. Similar things occur in different types of relationships, it is not unique to M/s. The process of internal enslavement is an ongoing one, and if it suffers from either point then the bond will suffer and possibly break, but while it is strong there is an enormous amount of control over the person. The wrong owner and it becomes detrimental and probably criminal. If handled properly it becomes complete and utter surrender, as well as total responsibility for another. quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf I agree that the rarity is the slave that is so internally enslaved that the choice to leave is not there. Many that do not practice, nor have experienced internal enslavement truly understand it. I thought I did long ago, but until it occured and I mastered a slave to that extent, I did not truly understand it. I do not demand that others accept or understand it. How did she manage to keep herself together when that relationship came to a conclusion? Or did she realize that she really could live without you? John Please, take no offense at the following as none is intended. But the kind of internal enslavement you describe sounds an awful lot like your typical high school relationship in which the world will seemingly end with it's conclusion. John

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 8:05:27 PM)
I take no offense. To those that do not fully understand it, I can see how it would appear so. Are not many of the great love poems and stories filled with such? Life would go on of course, but feelings and emotions are genuine, no matter how valid others believe them to be or not. quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Please, take no offense at the following as none is intended. But the kind of internal enslavement you describe sounds an awful lot like your typical high school relationship in which the world will seemingly end with it's conclusion. John

catize -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 8:09:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marie2 quote: ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis I questioned whether we can determine someone else's reality. Isn't someone's reality what they make it and what they experience? To an extent. But if the basis of reality is "whatever someone makes of it and experiences", then anyone (even people with delusions) can be anything. For me, there has to be some criteria that causes me see a pilot as a pilot, a kitten as a kitten, a slave as a slave. If the criteria to being anything is "That's how I see myself, therefore I am", we're in trouble. I look at this from another perspective. There are many people who lead the kind of lives that will remain a fantasy for me. I will never be able to do…XY or Z, but I don’t have any doubts that they are doing all those things.

AcademyForSlaves -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 8:21:55 PM)
It becomes real if both parties want it to be. It's as real as you make it. There's lots of fantasy subs but there's subs that want real slavery too. We get applications from all types. The subs that only want a fantasy get their fun and then leave, but the subs that want real slavery or 24-7 get real domination from us. They give real so we give real back.

Rover -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 8:27:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf I take no offense. To those that do not fully understand it, I can see how it would appear so. Are not many of the great love poems and stories filled with such? Life would go on of course, but feelings and emotions are genuine, no matter how valid others believe them to be or not. No question... romantic poems, romantic novels, romantic love songs... romance of many kinds... is replete with the agony of a broken heart. A very real emotion that most any of us has experienced a time or two in our lives. So I don't want to make it seem that I'm not (personally) aware of the reality of those feelings. But my point is that that those feelings are not reality. We may feel as though we can't go on, but we can. And do. We may feel as though there can never be another, but there is. We may feel as though we want to die, but we don't. My reference to high school relationships was intended to evoke some feelings as well. First, because we can all probably relate to feeling that way when were that age. And second, because we can all imagine ourselves today offering advice to the broken hearted teens. Some of you have probably done so with your own children. And the advice you gave them isn't unique to their age... it may seem that way, but it's not. John

cpK69 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 8:28:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl hi kim a quick question. isnt truth colored by perceptions? making each person's truth "their" truth? well wishes tazzy Hello tazzy, I think that is backwards. I’m still working on it. The best example I have come up with so far: Perceptions are based on individual truth, “Winter squash is nasty (to me).” Realties are based on known facts, “I don’t like winter squash; the texture makes me gag.” Truth is the check for perception to reality, and accounts for what I don’t know. Some people may like winter squash, some don’t. When people say, “that’s your truth” it excludes to possibility of what is being said as the truth. The irony here is that so many are basing truth, on their reality, and telling others it can’t be, because they can’t see it. Kim

agirl -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 8:34:23 PM)
I'm not being flippant .....but I really don't care about harmony here. I don't disagree with people on this thread. I merely have * what I have*. I might have something close or something world's apart from anyone else........but I don't care. I'm not saying that for effect It's a distraction and interesting to talk about these things ...up to a point. agirl

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 8:35:21 PM)
Suppose opinions will have to differ. Maybe one day we can revisit this. As I stated, my opinion and thoughts changed once experienced. Whether other say it is reality or not, has not a single iota of impact upon the psychology of a person that feels that way. Is it possible to die because someone you love, and completely devoted to dies? Sure. It happens. So I guess since it is possible, then it is reality, neh?

marie2 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 8:54:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize quote: ORIGINAL: marie2 quote: ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis I questioned whether we can determine someone else's reality. Isn't someone's reality what they make it and what they experience? To an extent. But if the basis of reality is "whatever someone makes of it and experiences", then anyone (even people with delusions) can be anything. For me, there has to be some criteria that causes me see a pilot as a pilot, a kitten as a kitten, a slave as a slave. If the criteria to being anything is "That's how I see myself, therefore I am", we're in trouble. I look at this from another perspective. There are many people who lead the kind of lives that will remain a fantasy for me. I will never be able to do…XY or Z, but I don’t have any doubts that they are doing all those things. To me, it all depends on the "things". I'll never lead the life of a mountain-climber, but if someone else is mountain-climbing, I can certainly see it as such, even though I've never experienced it myself. On the other hand, if someone walks across a sandy beach claiming that he's climbing a mountain, I'm going to seriously doubt that he's actually climbing a mountain.

cpK69 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 10:58:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I am not talking about the law. it is a meaningless notion accept when caught on it's wrong side. The question is when does this become somewhat of an excercise in futility. When being a participant does not fulfill the goal that inspired participation, the goal becomes obsolete, or recognized as faulty to one’s purpose. quote: Meaning, how many of the participants are "whole?" Hard to tell, but I will say, I’m not willing to interfere with the accountability of another.

kidwithknife -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 2:12:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cpK69 I think that is backwards. I’m still working on it. The best example I have come up with so far: Perceptions are based on individual truth, “Winter squash is nasty (to me).” Realties are based on known facts, “I don’t like winter squash; the texture makes me gag.” Truth is the check for perception to reality, and accounts for what I don’t know. Some people may like winter squash, some don’t. When people say, “that’s your truth” it excludes to possibility of what is being said as the truth. The irony here is that so many are basing truth, on their reality, and telling others it can’t be, because they can’t see it. Kim I agree, up to a point. While I like playing around with the concept of truth being an illusion, it's fair to say that if it feels true to me that I have a broken arm I'm going to see a doctor, not a philosopher. However, I think the issue here is that's what's being discussed is on the line between perception and reality. To use your analogy: If someone says "I feel that I am a slave" that's closest to saying "Winter Squash is nasty (to me)". It's a statement of individual perception. Which I don't think can be challenged as such, because it's subjective. If someone says "I see myself as a slave and these are the reasons why" then that fits into your definition of reality. It's like saying "I don't like winter squash; the texture makes me gag". It's challengeable to an extent, but only if you think someone is basing their views on false premises. So that would be something like "Actually, winter squash doesn't have that texture. I think you're getting it mixed up with zucchini". However, if somebody says "I am a slave" it doesn't quite fit into either category. That's a subjective perception stated as an absolute reality. So that would be like saying "winter squash tastes horrible". Whether people argue with it or not is going to be based largely on whether they personally agree with it. The final type of statement would be the strictly factual. If somebody says "consensual slavery is recognised by the legal system" it's like saying "winter squash grows on vines". It's actually the easiest kind of statement to look at. It's either correct or it isn't, with no grey area. (Very few of those kind of statements have been made in this thread. I merely include it for the sake of completeness).

cpK69 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 3:22:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kidwithknife However, I think the issue here is that's what's being discussed is on the line between perception and reality. I do not understand why truth is being excluded. Kim Adding; I probably misunderstood what you were saying, but I suspect that it just means my statement is what I see as the problem. My mind skips a beat sometimes. My bad.

kidwithknife -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 4:51:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cpK69 I do not understand why truth is being excluded. Kim Adding; I probably misunderstood what you were saying, but I suspect that it just means my statement is what I see as the problem. My mind skips a beat sometimes. My bad. No problem. It's as likely to be a lack of clarity on my part. I'm not excluding truth as such. I'd see both of what you were talking about there as being true, just different kinds. It's that I think most of the discussion about slaves in a BDSM context pretty much falls at a midpoint between the two. I think a large part of the problem is that any discussion about relationships is, by its nature, going to have a large element of personal truth involved. So it's never going to be possible to outright 'prove' things either way. Apart from with stuff like discussions of how historical slavery worked, which is a bit of a side issue. It's a bit like religion I think. If someone's a Christian, it's not just personal truth, as its a truth they share with other people. But they're never going to be able to prove that truth to an atheist, as its simply not the kind of truth you can prove. I don't necessarily see that as a problem though. At the end of the day, as long as someone is true to themselves and their relationship I think that's what matters.

cpK69 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 5:16:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kidwithknife At the end of the day, as long as someone is true to themselves and their relationship I think that's what matters. Yes. [:)] It's been an enlightening conversation, and thread in gernal. Kim

Rover -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 6:00:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cpK69 quote: ORIGINAL: kidwithknife However, I think the issue here is that's what's being discussed is on the line between perception and reality. I do not understand why truth is being excluded. Kim Kim, I believe that "truth" becomes difficult to deal with (and thus, avoided) because we're used to truth being founded in fact. And as it relates to to many power exchange relational issues, or self-identification, there are no facts... just feelings. Facts are true for all of us, while feelings are true for an individual. So it's really inappropriate to ask (demand) that others accept those feelings as universal truths. Besides, feelings change. But those issues can be so important to people that they want/need others to accept their feelings as facts. And it can often become an emotionally charged subject to discuss, because as the primary topic, feelings can be hurt. John

LaTigresse -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 6:24:47 AM)
John, that is exactly what I was thinking. To argue that someone is not climbing a mountain when they are instead, walking on a beach, is much less personal than telling someone what they are, is not what they say. If someone were to tell me that I am really not sitting on this sofa, I would probably just raise my eyebrows and say "Okayyyyyyyy, if you say so!" I mean, it's pretty obvious I am, no reason to be upset about that. BUT, if someone were to tell me something like, "Your not really a mother, grandmother!" and proceed to tell me the hows and whys of their arguement,which of course I would find insulting, they might get a far different response. ESPECIALLY if something had happened within those specific relationships that made me doubt my strength and validity as a mother or grandmother. Just something that came to me in reading through the last couple pages....

cpK69 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 6:52:42 AM)
Thank you, John Admittedly, my zealous behavior toward the topic stems from my perspective of slavery, though I do not claim to be one of a D/s nature. Therefore, I did have to stretch the boundaries of the original question, just a bit, to get there. I’ve realize I missed a piece of the equation when I stated where “truth lies”, earlier; it is actually between event and reality, and when one’s perspective becomes aliened with it, it really doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks. I'm okay with what others think, but I do have a need to know I am being accurate in my own thoughts. :) I guess I should be asking, "can someone be a slave to a concept", for myself. Kim p.s. I meant, without being thought of as crazy.

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