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Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 8:47:36 AM   
InTonguesslut


Posts: 401
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline 		I think we would all agree that legally you cannot own a person.
I think we would all agree that legally you cannot beat a person, consensual or not.
I think we would all agree that noone has the legal right to do anything to a person, make a person do anything etc.
(I'm sure there are exceptions but i'm talking in general).
 
Now in D/s, M/s, BDSM, whatever you want to call it we often speak of or hear spoken:-
 
I am an owned sub / slave.
I own a sub / slave.
I can beat my slave.
I can be beaten by Sir etc.
I gave up all my rights to Sir etc.
I have all rights over my sub / slave.
(All consensual of course).
 
Now to make this black and white, i guess you would say legally you are living in a fantasy world if you believe the second set of statements. That in reality none of the second set are actually true.
 
In a world that is as clear cut as the above is all D/s, M/s, BDSM etc just fantasy?
 
I really, really don't want this to turn into a debate about exactly what rights can be exercised by or over a person. I don't want it to turn into a debate over well being owned is a reality but being no limits is fantasy. I'd like to keep it as close to neutral about those things as possible, pretty please

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:06:08 AM   
NihilusZero


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Status: offline 		Since the only necessary parameters are that the above list items be equally expressed by the people in the relationship, it's "real" the moment it is lived.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:10:03 AM   
subtee


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Status: offline 		Jaysus, you want to start the whole thing again?

I really don't understand the desperate need to scream and rant about wiitYOUd...



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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:20:24 AM   
InTonguesslut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Jaysus, you want to start the whole thing again?

I really don't understand the desperate need to scream and rant about wiitYOUd...




The whole what thing?
Who's screaming and ranting?
I asked a question i had been pondering is all.
 
quote:

Since the only necessary parameters are that the above list items be equally expressed by the people in the relationship, it's "real" the moment it is lived.


I would agree with you. For me my lifestyle is reality and i'm sure it is the same for my sis and my Sir. I was just curious though that if it really was that black and white as things never are lol would it make us in the realms of fantasy.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:23:36 AM   
lameduck13


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Status: offline 		I would have to agree it is a question worth pondering.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:24:55 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Since you ask, I'll answer you. Just promise me you won't get upset.

Slavery, masterdoms, ownership, 'being property', all those things are fantasies that get enacted in real life.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:26:06 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut

In a world that is as clear cut as the above is all D/s, M/s, BDSM etc just fantasy?
 


I'll repeat; somewhere between perception and reality, is truth. It is as real as you make it.
 
Kim 

Just wanted to add: I don't mind repeating. 

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 4/2/2009 9:29:40 AM >

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:28:32 AM   
InTonguesslut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Since you ask, I'll answer you. Just promise me you won't get upset.

Slavery, masterdoms, ownership, 'being property', all those things are fantasies that get enacted in real life.


To be honest the more i've been pondering this question, the more i agree with ya.  It may well be a reality between Sir and myself but thats it, it doesn't make it a reality for everyone i come across.
 

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:31:34 AM   
InTonguesslut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut

In a world that is as clear cut as the above is all D/s, M/s, BDSM etc just fantasy?
 


I'll repeat; somewhere between perception and reality, is truth. It is as real as you make it.
 
Kim 

Just wanted to add: I don't mind repeating. 


Again i'd agree with you that in the realm of Sir and myself it is real. In the big wide world though it's a whole different ball game.

 

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It's not shopping if you buy 10 items or less.

If it fits in a toaster, i can cook it.

What you don't see with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Prov

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:35:30 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		It becomes problematic when people insist on labelling relationships according to their personal fantasies and on defining what is true or not to the rest of the world when really, it's between themselves. What the rest of the world sees or thinks doesn't matter. This is why I get a little irritated by the labels that we use. They are so limitating and rigid, they defy the fluidity that makes up human relationships. "Someone's a slave, it's official. So they have a servant's heart!." "This guy over there's a true Gorean Master. He is a noble man who understands accountability." "They're a poly couple: they really know about loving a lot." Ad nauseam. Completely counterproductive, in my opinion.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:37:52 AM   
IronBear


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Status: offline 		The actual slavery/ownership is real enough between those involved but not real or illegal as far as the law goes. However the dynamic you live is very real if you are living it 24/7 and especially if you keep reality checks going for all those involved. It is as real as the religious beliefs of those committed to what ever faith and even more fo for the priesthood. It is all a matter of perspective. Just my view which may or may not be in agreement with others..

I agree with KS and as far as the rest of the world goes, they can think what they like as long as they leave me to live my life, if they start preaching and getting hollier than thou, then they can shove their collective heads up a cow's twat and get fucked by a wolly bull... lol 

< Message edited by IronBear -- 4/2/2009 9:40:36 AM >

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:43:13 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I don't know why.. but this question brought up a memory for me.  For a very short while, early in my marriage this was my reality.
All my rights were gone (didn't realise I gave them away)
He had all the money (2 full closets of clothing and one large dresser).  I had to beg for things for our kids.
He often yelled at me for mistakes I may have made.
He hit me a few times... until my mother caught him and tossed him into a wall and pinned his body UP off the floor (she is 5'2".. he was 6'2")
I am going to say.. that was reality.
What I do now, is fantasy.
Like it or not.
Kyst

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:44:24 AM   
crazyredhead1957


Posts: 189
Joined: 12/10/2008
Status: offline 		The first set of statements are legal facts.  The second set of statements are something that can be voluntarily agreed to and, in voluntarily agreeing to them, they become real to the participants.  That's in my humble opinion, anyway.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:47:19 AM   
twisteddoll


Posts: 22
Joined: 2/22/2008
Status: offline 		I don't think it's like, "Does he really own me or are we just playing a game?"  IRL, I've made a decision to give myself to another person.  It's the type of relationship I've chosen to engage in.  Now, there's a time and a place for everything.  We're not going to go to the mall and engage in public acts of humiliation or anything.  But, it's not like we ever turn it off.  If we're going shopping at the mall and I'm trying on clothes, he's telling me what he likes.

I mean... just because the government or society hasn't made an official ceremony or document for this type of relationship, does that make it any less of a reality?  I suppose that would be silly.. going down to city hall to get your D/s certificate instead of like a marriage certificate, lol.  

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:50:46 AM   
BKSir


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From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

The actual slavery/ownership is real enough between those involved but not real or illegal as far as the law goes. However the dynamic you live is very real if you are living it 24/7 and especially if you keep reality checks going for all those involved. It is as real as the religious beliefs of those committed to what ever faith and even more fo for the priesthood. It is all a matter of perspective. Just my view which may or may not be in agreement with others..

I agree with KS and as far as the rest of the world goes, they can think what they like as long as they leave me to live my life, if they start preaching and getting hollier than thou, then they can shove their collective heads up a cow's twat and get fucked by a wolly bull... lol 


I like how you put that here I.B., equating it to religion or faith.  To those that have it, it's as real as the roof over their head, even if it's not tangible or able to be proven or able to be upheld in any court of law.

I have two partners and one pet, and we're very used to this sort of thing, being same sex "couples" (for lack of an easier term).  The only tangible thing that partner 1 and I have, is joint bank accounts, car titles and power of attorney.  Otherwise, there's nothing for the others involved, no legal recourse, nothing provable in a court, even after 14 years. 

But to us, to all of us involved, what we have, our relationship dynamic (as odd as it is), is as real s this keyboard I'm clicking away on.


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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:51:45 AM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		I think our desires to experience these types of relationship in our lives (to whatever degree) is "real".  I think entering into these power exchange relationships and living in that dynamic can and does cause feelings in us that are genuine and necessary to our individual fulfillment, for example, passion, intimacy, intensity, discovery, love, emotionally bonding, etc etc.  All of those feelings are authentic and are created by the dynamic that we are interacting within.  The relationship is real, it's authentic, it's genuine. 

However, I do not believe it is one of genuine slavery, mastery or human ownership. I believe that those who say they are in master/slave relationships are really in master/slave simulation relationships.  This is not to say that the power exchange isn't actually there, or that the dominance and submission isn't actually there etc.  It's just to say that I don't think what we do is slavery. Maybe it just comes down to definitions?  I don't know.  For me, "Master slave" has always felt silly, and analagous to "cowboys and indians", or "cops and robbers"; those games we played as kids when we went into character to enjoy a fantasy. 

I think these power exchange relationships need words in order to create understanding and effective communication between us, but I don't think there is a need for a particular shroud, especially not "Master slave".   I think people (generic bdsmers) would likely stop questioning their realness and trueness if they just dropped the need to call it pointed things like "slavery" and "ownership",  and whatnot.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:55:06 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Brilliant!

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
I think people (generic bdsmers) would likely stop questioning their realness and trueness if they just dropped the need to call it pointed things like "slavery" and "ownership",  and whatnot.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:55:32 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I'll give you an example. Consensual slavery. It's a fantasy. These two words are contradictory: slavery cannot be consensual. But people like to feel they've given themselves over to another, and they think the word 'slavery' has a pleasant, romantic sound. Nothing wrong with it, but it's a fantasy. They are not slaves, and never will they be. Now, it's between them: note that it's when they seek affirmation from cynics (like me) that problems arise from trying to define the word, its meaning and origins... these boards are full of that kind of thing. It's not real, but that's okay (as long as nobody gets hurt ) .

PS: just saw marie's post above - she got it down to a 't'.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/2/2009 9:57:28 AM >

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:56:56 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut

Again i'd agree with you that in the realm of Sir and myself it is real. In the big wide world though it's a whole different ball game.




Does needing to conceal one’s actions from the perception of others, take away from the validity of those actions?
If every decision a person makes is within the guidelines given to them by the one they claim owns them, does that not make them just as owned, as if they were purchasable?
If it doesn’t, does that not imply that one cannot truly own thyself?
Kim
 

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 4/2/2009 9:58:17 AM >

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:59:42 AM   
susie


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Fantasy is that I have given him control over me to pretty much do as he wants with.

Reality is that I can up and walk out if I ever get to be unhappy in the relationship as can he.

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