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RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 1/30/2006 11:39:15 AM   
Tantalus42


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Interesting thread. The discussion seems to have left Google a bit, at least tangentially, but I want to address that and then come back to where it's headed.

In my estimation, Google isn't being all that "not evil." They are doing this primarily for business reasons, the free speech stuff is just a bonus. Given that they caved in China and are now allowing dissadent web sites to be blocked by the Chinese govt, I don't find they have as strong a standing as they are trying to present when it comes to support for human rights. They have made calculated business decisions, nothing more, nothing less. Good for them for standing up to Bush and his cronies, but next time I hope they show more backbone when it comes to other totalitarian governments.

As for the rest of the discussion... some of you folks need to examine the facts and start putting two and two together. The NSA may be spying on overseas phone calls (purpotedly only calls to terrorists, but who can really say), but now combine that fact with the now forgotten news stories about the FBI spying on peace groups in our own country (yeah, watch out for those Quakers, they'll go postal any moment now). Take detainee abuse, combine it with secret prisons and add in a touch of taking wives and children hostage to get to their husbands. Take putting people in prison, American citizens, and denying them every right guaranteed to them in the Constitution, and combine that with a president who says he has the right to do pretty much anything he wants in a time of war... and now make that "time of war" open ended, with no possibility of ever really being resolved because there's really no way to win the war on terrorism.

Start adding it all up. If you're not seriously worried about the executive branch of the United States, then you clearly are not paying attention, are not a true patriot willing to engage in critical debate to make your country stronger, and will get what you deserve in the end.

We impeached Clinton for lying about having sex. Bush should have been run out on a rail by now given those standards. And of course the party of opposition has a serious lack of backbone issue that needs to be addressed, which makes the political situation these days unbearable for me.

Oh well... enough about that. It's everyone's duty to THINK critically about what's going on at all times, whether or not you support the guy in the office. An educated, thoughtful populace is what can make this country stronger, not a bunch of sheep following along with whatever they are told.

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 1/30/2006 11:57:47 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
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From: Delray Beach, FL
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It was quite a liberal court which refused cert on the helmet law case, and as I've grown older and less conservative I recognize it was the right decision as that decision should be left up to the states. In this case, they were acting just as the neocons would want to to act and not create new laws rather than the present crew that invented a whole new meaning for eminent domain which promises to create a witch's dance of corruption on a scale not seen since Tammany Hall and the Oil Trust.

You see, unlike the neocons, I don't see changing my mind as more imformation comes to light as somehow being bad. I "flipflopped" on continental drift. I flipflopped on the rightness of Vietnam as more information became available. I flipflopped on not behing interested in dating large women after I met Libby. I flipflopped after 911 and the rage metamorphosed into my current cold anger.

In each case, as I see it now, my "weakminded flipflopping" has led to a better man, able to make better choice

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 1/30/2006 12:10:15 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

You see, unlike the neocons, I don't see changing my mind as more imformation comes to light as somehow being bad. I "flipflopped" on continental drift. I flipflopped on the rightness of Vietnam as more information became available. I flipflopped on not behing interested in dating large women after I met Libby. I flipflopped after 911 and the rage metamorphosed into my current cold anger.

In each case, as I see it now, my "weakminded flipflopping" has led to a better man, able to make better choice


And for that you earned and deserve the respect you are given.

I hope to be wrong on a lot of issues that I currently consider facts as you did. Until then, I continue to learn, and be pragmatic based upon what I observe and/or have experienced first hand.

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 1/30/2006 9:30:46 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

For those that speak of rights and liberty in such a loose way have never paid that price for freedom i have read things on nazism the books and articles


And what do you have to say about the masses of common folks who blindly supported Hitler's regime?

quote:

i love history here is the best point i can come up with i was born in the us i love this country would not live anywhere else for years she has paid in blood for great things i have i could never repaythis but my loyalty and honor in a nut shell i have nothing to hide or to be ashamed of i am patriot all the way would do what ever the president asked of me


Are you suggesting that blind faith equals patriotism?

quote:

you do not have to live in this country you have so much to be thank full for no place else could you go and said your opionions if you did you might be excuted like in china or korea


Since you love history, I'd be interested in your opinion whether you think the USA is more like China and North Korea today compared to 50 years ago, or less like them today than 50 years ago.

quote:

there so many <excerpted> people that hate this country its not funny


Have you ever thought about why this is?

quote:

i am all for what the president does only people that complain are the ones that usely have things to hide most of the time not leagle try looking a little deeper in history


Your love for history should put you in a good position to share some examples that illustrate the alleged fact that people complaining have the most to hide. Please share with us.


(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 1/31/2006 1:22:30 AM   
LATEXBABY64


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as for Johns earlier commient i was a 19e i see a lot of luminaties on here lol but ok as you wish :) lets see where should i start with rome germany russia china japan england us what part humm this should be fun or even class of people mental aspects of culture through the years because thats what it is when it comes down to the nuts in bolts of it culture the way we see things as a whole society

(in reply to subfever)
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RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 1/31/2006 9:50:38 AM   
SirKenin


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Just out of curiosity, who cares about NCSF? Who exactly are they anyways? Does the government give any more of a damn about them than I do? It sounds just like another special interest group like PETA, and they are a nickel a dozen. I thought it would have been some big name that might actually pack some punch.

These guys can back up whomever they please. It still amounts to absolutely nothing if the government does little more than swat at them like a horse does to a fly, if they can even make it past the janitor to the ears of the President in the first place

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Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Sunshine119)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 1/31/2006 12:46:08 PM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Just out of curiosity, who cares about NCSF? Who exactly are they anyways? Does the government give any more of a damn about them than I do?


Currently, among other things, they have a lawsuit against the attorney general et al over internet censorship.

They also advise individuals and groups around the country who either fear conflict with the government or have had that conflict thrust upon them.

They have also provided support to individuals who, for example, are having difficulties in their divorce cases because of a BDSM history of BDSM.

http://www.ncsfreedom.org/



_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 1/31/2006 4:35:50 PM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Just out of curiosity, who cares about NCSF? Who exactly are they anyways? Does the government give any more of a damn about them than I do?


Currently, among other things, they have a lawsuit against the attorney general et al over internet censorship.

They also advise individuals and groups around the country who either fear conflict with the government or have had that conflict thrust upon them.

They have also provided support to individuals who, for example, are having difficulties in their divorce cases because of a BDSM history of BDSM.

http://www.ncsfreedom.org/




Very cool. Thanks. Question is, though, how much pull do they have? I can launch a similar lawsuit if I wanted. The question I am asking you, then, is does anybody actually listen to them when they speak? Or are they like a mouse fart in a hurricane?

I can also start My own group and produce a press release, but I do not think that really amounts to a hill of beans unless the powers that be will listen to what I have to say. If they want to fight this, that is fine by Me, but I am just questioning whether they have any amount of pull to do anything about it, or whether it is all verbiage.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 1/31/2006 5:05:42 PM   
newflowers


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quote:

I cant agree with the thread here, particularly when what we are realy talking about is abuse of children. I have no problem with consenting adults getting involved in whatever they like, but how can anyone think that it is alright to even use the words "sexual freedom" when a child in involved. Maybe you need to know how important children are, how vulnerable they are, how they are not able to make choices that affect their whole lives. Maybe you should look at those abused before making such statemnts about "sexual freedom". I have and there are too many shattered lives. This is where I get off the bus!!

And Google to allow the kind of government censorship in China, no use of freedom here of any kind, and yet come out on this side of the issue, well it goes to show how unpricipled they are.


i most heartedly disagree. It is parents' responsibility to monitor their children; it is not the responsibility of the federal government to ursurp parental rights or obligations. Children are indeed vunerable and prey to a plethora of monsters in varied guies and places, i do not dispute this. i am a parent and a teacher - i am well aware of the dangers faced by children in our society. However, as we have seen with Bush's recent justifications, when we continue to allow the federal government to negate, step on, and outright steal our civil freedoms, we, as a nation and as a world, set ourselves on a very slippery slope. Once a particular freedom is taken away, do you honestly believe that the government - the US or any other - is going to come back later and say "oops! here, have that right to privacy back, we made a mistake"? i think not.

Additionally, i am the adult in my home. i use my Internet including Google for searches and email on various sites - some innocuous and some not. If my Google use is being monitored, how does the Justice Department know the difference between me - the working, bill paying adult - and one of my children or grandchildren on the net?

Furthermore, as the adult in my home and parent to my children, i
whole-heartedly object to anyone or any entity negating my obligation, responsibility, and right to raise my own children. Yet, as a nation, we continue to come closer to a governmental system that tells what and when we may or may not do any number of things.

Recently, on the news, there was a story about a woman who is suing a cereal company and others because she feels that the character Sponge Bob markets unhealthy products. When i heard this, my first response what "what the %#@*!!!" Who bought the cereal and fed it to the child? Who allows the child to watch television programming of which she obviously disapproves? Who pays for the cable tv so the child has access to the television program? Who, in blaming others, agrees to abdicate her responsibility to care for, monitor, and raise her own child?

Parents, not the government, are responsible for what their children eat, and wear and watch and learn and where and with whom they do these these and everything else - rasing the children of this country is not governed, monitored, or in any way under the purview of the federal government.

newflowers

(in reply to wetrope)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 1/31/2006 5:16:05 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
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Pedophilia will never be solved by eavesdropping; does anyone remember the librarians' fight to destroy records of what books are checked out?

Mary Minow of the lawlibrary.com says:

Should libraries cooperate with the Patriot Act (Re interent use)

Yes, but advisedly with a court order. This is where the library’s individual policies and procedures will become increasingly important. Does the library require sign-ups? If there are no sign-up lists, the inquiry essentially halts. Does the library allow first names only, or made-up names? Does it require identification? Library cards with addresses? Does it keep sign-up records, and if so, for how long? Does it use an automated system that ties library card numbers (tied to registration information) to Internet use? Is such information electronically disengaged after use and electronically shredded? Is it backed up on computer tapes? How long are backup tapes kept?

Many such policies can be adapted to other library materials to evade the eavesdropping.

Pretty cool, eh?

Meantime, try www.dogpile.com, which combines various search engines including Google.

candystripper


< Message edited by candystripper -- 1/31/2006 5:27:30 PM >

(in reply to newflowers)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 1/31/2006 6:06:32 PM   
Sunshine119


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Wow...Latex Baby! There is finally something you have said that resounds in my heart. As a student of history, if you really believe these great men, then you would have to condemn Bush's subversion of the Constitution and conclude, in many instances, his (or his administration) depriving of individual rights leads to the destruction of free governments. Just the point I was trying to make. Thank You!

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed.
— George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796

Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government.
— James Madison



(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 1/31/2006 6:26:28 PM   
Lordandmaster


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I just cannot comprehend this attitude. They are standing up for what they believe in, whether they have the "pull to do anything about it" or not. If more people stood up for what they believed in, instead of rolling over and presenting their asses because they don't think they can do anything about it, maybe we'd actually get a few things done. Do you think the Founding Fathers considered what they were doing "all verbiage" just because no one in the world though they had the "pull" to do anything? I don't think it's cool to be a big cynic who pretends that power is all that matters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

If they want to fight this, that is fine by Me, but I am just questioning whether they have any amount of pull to do anything about it, or whether it is all verbiage.


(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 1/31/2006 9:17:00 PM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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It is not reallly power.. It is a voice.. You either have one or you do not. Marching in here with a press release saying "We support such and such"... Well... That is nice...but.

It is not that I do not admire their efforts. They are standing up for what they think is right. That is not what matters to Me in My current train of thought.. Sure.. Go ring a bell on the street corner and get it out of your system.

What matters to Me is "what are you going to do about it?" and "how are you going to go about doing it?" and lastly "does anyone listen besides the people that have no say". That is why we have huge lobbies. They are big enough and have a loud enough voice to get something done. I do not see the same thing happening here.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 2/1/2006 12:42:53 AM   
LATEXBABY64


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quote:

What matters to Me is "what are you going to do about it?" and "how are you going to go about doing it?" and lastly "does anyone listen besides the people that have no say".
quote:



I have to say yes I belong to the Republican Party. lets think about this just for second you know about all the stuff with Christmas in schools and pledge of allegiance how so called luminaties complained about it here’s what they do they take things that they feel are wrong based on their point of view and change it to fit their agenda but they never think beyond the box of things but that is their right to try it I mean come on would you go to a another country and do this hell no I love to see you try that in china or Korea or France or Russia. the British have tough laws and the people have many freedoms every country has its own policy if you live here you fallow the rules or get out just that simple you going to see more right ring things happen I am glad for once gives us back our Christmas in school and pledge to the allegiance.

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 2/1/2006 2:34:38 PM   
Lordandmaster


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OK, let's see if you can put your money where your mouth is.

What are you going to do about it? Have you done anything?

If the answers are "nothing" and "no," as I'm pretty sure they must be, then all your cynical talk doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

What matters to Me is "what are you going to do about it?" and "how are you going to go about doing it?" and lastly "does anyone listen besides the people that have no say".


(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 2/1/2006 3:12:21 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
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Well that was a good guess, brainiac. What gave it away, the fact that I have already come right out and openly said that I have no problem with this issue? No? Well then you are incredibly perceptive. Lord of none, supergenious.

All I am saying is that I can walk in here and trumpet My call to action. See, I am in business and I maintain a web presence. I subscribe to numerous business and e-commerce newsletters. I know all about press releases and the strategy behind them. The key theory behind them is to draw public focus onto yourself. They are a marketing tool, pure and simple.

And I am saying this. Ok. You succeeded. Here I am. Now. What are you doing about it? You claim to support it. So what? Many people do, but they do not draft up a press release and dump it in a forum. You are a special interest group. Why should I support you? Does anyone listen to you? Or does the janitor chase you down the hall with a broomstick? What is your strategy for dealing with this issue? Saying "we support this" without providing a strategy to deal with the issue is completely useless. I support the government's position on this. Maybe I should draft up a press release to that effect. Would you give a damn? No. Probably not. Or, if it was someone else, they might take the position that I am taking with this particular group's release. Now you can see where I am coming from.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 2/1/2006 7:03:55 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Case closed.

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RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 2/2/2006 8:07:18 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
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quote:

Given that they caved in China and are now allowing dissadent web sites to be blocked by the Chinese govt, I don't find they have as strong a standing as they are trying to present when it comes to support for human rights. They have made calculated business decisions, nothing more, nothing less. Good for them for standing up to Bush and his cronies, but next time I hope they show more backbone when it comes to other totalitarian governments.


Nice observation. There's no such thing as selective defense of free speech... you either support it or you don't- It can be evaluated as a business decision. If I was sitting on Google's board, I would have voted to kick the PLA right in the balls. This move has many unforseen ramifications { It further opens the door for more censorship on the net} I'm highly disappointed with google and will now go out of my way not to use any of their services, no matter how good they are.


- The Ranger


< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 2/2/2006 8:14:02 PM >


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to Tantalus42)
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RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 2/2/2006 8:52:02 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Google's China deal has drawn tons of criticism, but I'm not so sure I understand what alternative they had. The People's Republic of China is a sovereign nation and, whether you agree with their policies or not (and I don't), their government has the right and the authority to decide how they are going to handle the internet in their country. What exactly was Google supposed to do? I'm not completely informed about the deal they worked out, so it's certainly possible that I'm not aware of crucial details.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: NCSF Supports Google's Refusal to Violate Internet ... - 2/3/2006 12:28:19 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
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quote:

Google's China deal has drawn tons of criticism, but I'm not so sure I understand what alternative they had. The People's Republic of China is a sovereign nation and, whether you agree with their policies or not (and I don't), their government has the right and the authority to decide how they are going to handle the internet in their country. What exactly was Google supposed to do?


Well... For starters, how bout ignoring the request? Why not shift the burden by telling them if they want to censor their own populace, figure out a way to do it themselves. Why do the enemy’s work for them?

I need to read up on it a little more... but I suspect that google would only make a concession like that to the PLA for fear of losing access to their markets {loss of market share through advertising}

I think anytime you put a price-tag on the principle/ideals that have made you great in the first place.... it's a telling sign that you've lost your way...

You never really understand the true value of free speech until after you've lost it.



- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 2/3/2006 12:29:02 AM >


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 60
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