RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community?

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (Full Version)

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barelynangel -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 11:10:29 AM)
Mike don't patronize me, because we have people on this board yourself included slinging insults and stating things about people's characters because of what they believe. So yeah i AM reading what people are saying and personally i disagree with what is being said. Yeah that is why its called a DISCUSSION. And yes, i believe many people are using emotion to discuss this and if they COULD and KNEW HOW would form a witch hunt. You are speaking as if everyone BUT me is somehow doing it "right." Bullshit and you know it. You are attempting to evaluate without any input from well hell ME what i think of what transpired at Gitmo etc -- nice try. Don't you think you should have such information from me before you start deciding what i am more worried about -- see, only i can answer that, you can presume by adding things of your own into what i am saying -- but more than likely you are wrong in your presumption of what i think about a topic i am not discussing at the moment. So your last sentence has no merrit nor any insight as to what i am doing. Its simply you passive aggressively trying to put words into my mouth lol. Good try though. See this is why hearsay is usually not allowed in courts of law, because people tend to put their own spin on things another said and act like its the truth of what was said. angel

Lucylastic -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 11:16:34 AM)
I trust the red cross and amnesty international more than I trust the CIA and "lawyers" Sam, All of your posts strike a chord with me and I agree with you. alll the petty bickering here has been enlightening, its not a political issue, its a moral issue and I wont agree with what goes against MY morals and beliefs. I can appreciate what torture does for the torturing side, why people do it, Ive even wanted to torture someone non consensually, gasp. However I also know what its like having my rights taken away from me and abused and how it affected me. SO I come down against torture.if that makes me hypocitical so be it, it is something that I deal with myself and no one else will, thats alll any of us can do. What would a "sanction" mean, were they military? were they civvies? Did they have a choice? if they were recruited did they sigh a NDC & secrecy papers? they made their choice, isnt that what you are all trying to tell us all? every choice has a consequence.right? There are enough assholes in the world to believe that some of these people knew what they were doing was, illegal and ethically and morally quesionable to human rights. Even enjoyed it. Do I thinkthey should be strung up by their toenails and jailed, no Do I think they should be punished in some way , yes absolutely. My opinion for what its worth.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 11:30:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cuckyman Firstly, who would take the left wing Red Cross's word for anything other than blather...secondly, I am beginning to think this nation is no longer worth defending.... let the terrorist have at these idiot left wingers..... I am wondering if this nation is worth the effort of those who have stood up against terrorist.... let them blow these left wing pukes to hell for all I care....they are cowardly, lying, socialist pigs and not worth defending....there is a bad moon rising.... one side will prevail....but it will not be without bloodshed..... 1861...we are back again.... let er rip! This Viet Nam vet has no use for the left...now, or ever....... still can hold em and squeeze em....and can bullseye about 500 yards every shot..... bout time to put that skill back to use..... fuck the left...and fuck Obama! Why are you so proud of your service, when you clearly have no concept of what it was you were supposedly defending?

slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 11:33:32 AM)
Please show me one instance where I called into question you or anyone else's character.All I did was interpet your post's based on what you wrote,which is after all the only information available to me.Now as far as judging people...you seem to be doing far more of that than anyone else here.This is a discussion ,and people give their opinions ,you have given yours...I have responded,an intrinsic part of doing that is evaluating the posters comments....so I can't apologise for that.If you think I need more information from you in order to correctly do that...perhaps you should supply that with more clearly thought out post's.

slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 11:36:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: cuckyman Firstly, who would take the left wing Red Cross's word for anything other than blather...secondly, I am beginning to think this nation is no longer worth defending.... let the terrorist have at these idiot left wingers..... I am wondering if this nation is worth the effort of those who have stood up against terrorist.... let them blow these left wing pukes to hell for all I care....they are cowardly, lying, socialist pigs and not worth defending....there is a bad moon rising.... one side will prevail....but it will not be without bloodshed..... 1861...we are back again.... let er rip! This Viet Nam vet has no use for the left...now, or ever....... still can hold em and squeeze em....and can bullseye about 500 yards every shot..... bout time to put that skill back to use..... fuck the left...and fuck Obama! Why are you so proud of your service, when you clearly have no concept of what it was you were supposedly defending? I don't know about the rest of you,but I hope Congress finally fixes the VA situation...especially in regards the area of PTSD

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 11:39:23 AM)
quote: "At times, according to the detainees’ accounts, medical workers “gave instructions to interrogators to continue, to adjust or to stop particular methods.” If this is true, it's the beginning and the end of the debate as far as I'm concerned. I don't care if they were told that it was legal; that's irrelevant. I don't care if they were operating in what some people think is a "grey area"; that's irrelevant. I don't care if they were faced with making a difficult decision; that's just tough shit. Welcome to the real world, a place where difficult decisions are never more than an arm's length away and people are judged by - and held accountable for - the choices they make, regardless of how difficult the decisions may have been. If this allegation is true, these people made the wrong choices, and the consequences should be that they're never again allowed to be in a position where they have to make moral and ethical medical decisions again, because they have clearly shown they can not be trusted in such a circumstance.

sirsholly -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 11:41:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: "At times, according to the detainees’ accounts, medical workers “gave instructions to interrogators to continue, to adjust or to stop particular methods.” If this is true, it's the beginning and the end of the debate as far as I'm concerned. I don't care if they were told that it was legal; that's irrelevant. I don't care if they were operating in what some people think is a "grey area"; that's irrelevant. I don't care if they were faced with making a difficult decision; that's just tough shit. Welcome to the real world, a place where difficult decisions are never more than an arm's length away and people are judged by - and held accountable for - the choices they make, regardless of how difficult the decisions may have been. If this allegation is true, these people made the wrong choices, and the consequences should be that they're never again allowed to be in a position where they have to make moral and ethical medical decisions again, because they have clearly shown they can not be trusted in such a circumstance. [sm=agree.gif][sm=goodpost.gif] well said, Panda!!

FirmhandKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 6:42:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Firm thats the point...it isn't a black and white world,that's as good an argument for due process as any other.If you can show me any of the inhabitants at gitmo received due process at any point....well than you have a discussion,if not just being held there was a form of torture... Before denying a man of his most fundamental right...his liberty ,we owe ot to ourselves to do everything in our power to ascertain ,as far as possible,his guilt or innocence.Otherwise we lost far more than some buildings and 3,000 some odd souls on 9/11...we lost our way. Hiya Mike! Now that a lot of the BS has been cleared, I'm happy to respond to you. Your main point in this post (correct me if I am wrong) is that the captured terrorist did not enjoy any semblance of "due process". I disagree. First, "due process" is a concept that the US Constitution gives to US citizens. Yes, I realize that that is and has been evolving to cover more and more people over time, and I do believe that 'due process" is a concept that serves the world well, and should be appropriately extended. But, notice the word "appropriately". Due process is extend to US citizens because they also share the obligations and cultural beliefs of "Americans". Extending the US version of "due process" to members outside the control of the US government (and Constitution) is equal to asserting US power over and rights (such as the right to vote, and the right to bear arms) to people who are not party to the American social contract. Or, in other words, it is the flip side of the US asserting it's military, legal and moral rights over every over nation in the world. I might be able to live with giving US due process rights to non-US citizens (and even believe that resident legal aliens should enjoy all rights of a US citizen, except the right to vote), if the duties and responsibilities toward the US were included. Unfortunately, that path is labeled with all kinds of negative concepts such as "imperialism". When a US citizen engages in terrorism within the borders of the US, I think that they should be tried, convict and executed with all the due process and rights inherent in American citizenship. But when a non-citizen takes aim to kill, destroy and maim my nation (read closely) and my fellow citizens, then I believe they deserve no more than the absolute minimum that international and US law allows. Their status is not that of a citizen. Their status is not that of an individual of an armed forces opposing the US. Their legal position was one in which their rights were determined to be terrorist, with their only right being that of review by military tribunal. That's what Roosevelt said. That is what Roosevelt did, when he tried and hanged German spies during WWII. Hey ... if it was good enough for Roosevelt, it's good enough for me! [:)][8D][:D] Firm

Owner59 -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 7:11:35 PM)
The bushies changed the definition of combatant from people we actually knew were the enemy and fighting, to anyone and everyone in the war zone. Hence a bunch of innocent civies got caught up in the round-up as a result. This explains why so many of the "terrorists" were released or had charges dropped.We know a few of these formally normal people, were turned into terrorists by the neo-con`s special form of hospitality This explains why no one was tried or convicted during the 6 bush years. Conflating the torture,false imprisonment,abuse and killing of the thousands and thousands folks not involved in 9/11 with 9/11, is counter-productive,bigoted and very very unfortunate for our good name in the world. Doing something about the injustices we`ve inflicted will go a long was toward repairing our tarnished reputation.

slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:19:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Firm thats the point...it isn't a black and white world,that's as good an argument for due process as any other.If you can show me any of the inhabitants at gitmo received due process at any point....well than you have a discussion,if not just being held there was a form of torture... Before denying a man of his most fundamental right...his liberty ,we owe ot to ourselves to do everything in our power to ascertain ,as far as possible,his guilt or innocence.Otherwise we lost far more than some buildings and 3,000 some odd souls on 9/11...we lost our way. Hiya Mike! Now that a lot of the BS has been cleared, I'm happy to respond to you. Your main point in this post (correct me if I am wrong) is that the captured terrorist did not enjoy any semblance of "due process". I disagree. First, "due process" is a concept that the US Constitution gives to US citizens. Yes, I realize that that is and has been evolving to cover more and more people over time, and I do believe that 'due process" is a concept that serves the world well, and should be appropriately extended. But, notice the word "appropriately". Due process is extend to US citizens because they also share the obligations and cultural beliefs of "Americans". Extending the US version of "due process" to members outside the control of the US government (and Constitution) is equal to asserting US power over and rights (such as the right to vote, and the right to bear arms) to people who are not party to the American social contract. Or, in other words, it is the flip side of the US asserting it's military, legal and moral rights over every over nation in the world. I might be able to live with giving US due process rights to non-US citizens (and even believe that resident legal aliens should enjoy all rights of a US citizen, except the right to vote), if the duties and responsibilities toward the US were included. Unfortunately, that path is labeled with all kinds of negative concepts such as "imperialism". When a US citizen engages in terrorism within the borders of the US, I think that they should be tried, convict and executed with all the due process and rights inherent in American citizenship. But when a non-citizen takes aim to kill, destroy and maim my nation (read closely) and my fellow citizens, then I believe they deserve no more than the absolute minimum that international and US law allows. Their status is not that of a citizen. Their status is not that of an individual of an armed forces opposing the US. Their legal position was one in which their rights were determined to be terrorist, with their only right being that of review by military tribunal. That's what Roosevelt said. That is what Roosevelt did, when he tried and hanged German spies during WWII. Hey ... if it was good enough for Roosevelt, it's good enough for me! [:)][8D][:D] Firm FR A little pressed for time here Firm but a few problems with your roosevelt analogy...1) we were at war ,the rules of war clearly state spies captured out of uniform will be executed. 2) Roosevelt did not make it US policy to torture and/or unduly interogate those spies...he hung them. 3) Cheney et al invented a new and heretofore unheard of classification for these prisoners....and had his lawyers draft unconstitutional position papers authorising unconstitutional treatment of these same prisoners. 4)The point isn't wether or not these men fell under the protection of the Constitution...it is that we are compelled to adhere to the principals contained therein if we are to have any credibility as a Nation... more later....

TheHeretic -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:22:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol You and a couple of others need to grow up and to stop trying to drag the debate down to playground spats and character assassination. Think you can manage that? Is all you can contribute to this discussion really just this: "hire crooked quacks who've lost their licenses so that we can continue to torture people and put them to death"? Anyway... sigh. Kitten, love, if you were actually interested in solving a genuine dilemma, you'd see my solution very well suits the question of the OP. I think you'd rather try to exploit the situation to push your agenda on interrogations and the death penalty. Love that saucy mouth of yours, though. [;)] The question is, how do we reconcile medical ethics with situations and procedures where the well-being of the patient is not the goal? Medical knowledge and experience are necessary. I'd rather not see a new post-graduate field of studies in 'pain/death administration' in order to fill this need. By drawing from the pool of people stripped of their licenses, we get the know-how we need, without involving the medical community. Current practice is way out into the slippery gray areas. Yes, Kitten. I come down firmly in favor of the death penalty, and I think a stated "we don't ever ask rudely," interrogation policy is both dumb, and counterproductive. Those things aren't the question, though.

rulemylife -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:33:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY When a US citizen engages in terrorism within the borders of the US, I think that they should be tried, convict and executed with all the due process and rights inherent in American citizenship. But when a non-citizen takes aim to kill, destroy and maim my nation (read closely) and my fellow citizens, then I believe they deserve no more than the absolute minimum that international and US law allows. Their status is not that of a citizen. Their status is not that of an individual of an armed forces opposing the US. Their legal position was one in which their rights were determined to be terrorist, with their only right being that of review by military tribunal. That's what Roosevelt said. That is what Roosevelt did, when he tried and hanged German spies during WWII. Hey ... if it was good enough for Roosevelt, it's good enough for me! [:)][8D][:D] Firm I'm pretty sure we've had this conversation before, but it bears repeating. Many of the so-called terrorists were never terrorists, or even enemy combatants, they were just labeled as such for the bounty our government was offering.

rulemylife -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:37:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic The question is, how do we reconcile medical ethics with situations and procedures where the well-being of the patient is not the goal? We don't. That's the antithesis of medical ethics.

TheHeretic -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:41:54 PM)
Glad you get it, RML. Hence the need for qualified people not subject to the rules of medical ethics.

rulemylife -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:55:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Glad you get it, RML. Hence the need for qualified people not subject to the rules of medical ethics. Sort of sad that some feel that there is a necessity for that. So much for those vaunted American values.

Owner59 -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:41:36 PM)
"American values" You`re assuming an awful lot,rule. You can`t get blood from a stone.

TheHeretic -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:46:07 PM)
Values come into conflict, RML.

Owner59 -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:51:36 PM)
Yeah,shit happens.Gotta break a few eggs if you`re gonna make an omlet....<who was it that said that?>

Politesub53 -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/10/2009 3:56:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Their legal position was one in which their rights were determined to be terrorist, with their only right being that of review by military tribunal. Firm, this conveniently overlooks the fact that many of the people flown to Gitmo, were known to be innocent PRIOR to being put on a plane. This fact has been recently confirmed by US authorities. Surely that would make such people innocent civillians ? As for the OP, medics knowingly taking part in torture should be held to account. The clearly states they advised if it was okay to continue. This is way different to being called into the room to deal with an injured prisoner.

Aneirin -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/10/2009 4:52:50 AM)
Is this what people have come to, we argue the smallest of details, the finest points of every word, and all of it our understandings of the definitions and mechanations of law. Law, as if it is everything and has the answer for every problem. A law can mean many things, that is why we have people skilled in the understanding and application of the law, lawyers, yes, those many here distrust, they can make it mean anything to suit their masters purpose as if it was their moral right. But despite laws made and manipulated, have we all forgotten where people are concerned, no hard and fast logic can be applied, we are not machines with a simple on and off, but living, breathing, feeling natural organisms. Organisms that are subject to the feelings and actions of others, the enviroment, everything, we are constantly feeling, feeling our way through the life of our lives. So, you just have to ask yourself, how do you feel when confronted with reports such as these, situations where it is plainly obvious law has come into question, it's definition as always elusive, could this not be a case where feeling takes rule over thought. If this is the case, when hearing such things, examine how you feel before you apply thought. Be true to yourself, be honest, your feelings count more than thoughts as with living breathing natural creatures, feelings govern thought. I f you can't be honest and true to yourself, then who can you be honest and true to. Go with the feeling.

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