RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (Full Version)

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barelynangel -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:43:36 AM)

kittnsol, i work in med mal law.  So no i haven't been a doctor but i doubt you and others have either especially in this type of situation where a decision had to be made.  Whether you would care to admit it, my experience in this type of law gives me a couple different views of what doctors do and what they are faced with daily.  I also have more of an insight to the ins and outs of doctors applying their ethics and what they are up against.  As well as dealing with experts in the field.  So while no i am not a doctor, i do have because of my work have insights into the application of same and reasons behind same based on personal statements and discussions with many who have complaints placed against them.  So no i don't have all the media reports to base my comments on, you are correct in that.  I have more personal communications with people who have to make decisions on a daily basis as to what is and is not ethical and yes, when should there be times to break what you believe. 

I have also in the past worked closely with cops, FBI, CIA, etc who all have to make ethical decisions on a daily basis and have had to investigate them and look into their decisions on a criminal investigation.  I have also been involved with prosecuting people for crimes that would make you sick at what people are capable of. 

So yeah, its cold and many times it may seem to people i don't care, i do care, there are just somethings based on the knowledge i have i don't take at the media outcry of its wrong.  What's sad is i am capable of walking onto a murder scene and evaluating it without emotion including the body that has been mutilated and here's what's ironic-- tortured.  So you can say what you will about me and how i appear to you, i think you have no feeling or compassion for victims or people harmed.  So we are at a catch 22, you are a tearjerker for those i call bad guys, and i have seen victims and their families where i can't simply say someone is doing something wrong based on what is occuring without a hell of  a lot more information and personal statements.

See it how you want, but the day you have to for years look victims and yes the actual murders and what they DID in the eye, and say well everyone violated ethics to achieve a goal, so be it.  You are a better person than i ever can be after what i have seen, heard, and been involved in analyzing and reviewing.  In all actuality, i wish i could be more save the world and don't hurt, kill or whatnot, sometimes situations call for just that.  You seem awfully sanctimonious in your determination to make me and others into awful people, kittnsol, i hope you keep your naitivity.  Unfortunately, i have seen to much to make a haphazard decisions on whether or not someone acted ethically in the course of their responsibilities.  So please continue insulting people who disagree with you, continue acting as if you are this saint in your beliefs, its nice to see someone has maintained innocence in their lives.

angel



sirsholly -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:47:40 AM)

quote:

everyone violated ethics to achieve a goal, so be it.


if they violate their ethics ONCE, i personally do not want them in the same field i am in. They took the same oath i did...DO NO HARM



scarlethiney -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:57:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

It strikes me that arguing over the definition of torture in this fashion, i.e. what exactly were the specifics done- is a page right out of the Nazi handbook.  Bear in mind that guards at Auschwitz were not hired to engage in mass murder- they were there for the security of the state and to assist in the elimination of sub-humans including Jews, gypsies homosexuals, Poles, Russians, the mentally retarded etc.

Rather than using a narrow definition of torture- let's look at the conditions in these camps overall, shall we?  How would any of you like to be kidnapped, taken to a prison, denied access to a lawyer, denied contact with your families and loved ones, denied knowing what specific crimes you were guilty of, and told that unless you "cooperated" you would be held indefinitely.  And if somebody fingered you, you might be given an "aggressive interrogation".  We threw away our laws and replaced them with what can at best be called legal chicanery over what constitutes allowable physical torture but this whole argument obscures the larger picture- to whit- false imprisonment to provide information is also a form of torture.  Lawyers can argue over whether or not this is torture, but I suspect the rest of us are content to use Oliver Wendell Holmes precedent of his definition of pornography- "I know it when I see it." to define torture- and this most certainly qualifies.

From my perspective EVERYONE in that camp has undergone psychological torture at a minimum, and clearly some were tortured physically as well.  Arguing over the exact form of the physical torture is like arguing over the methods used in an extermination camp.  Was hanging preferred over cyanide?  How about shooting?  Is the person who gassed another individual guilty of a different crime than a guard who shot an inmate?  Lawyers can argue over such details- to me they're irrelevant.

The actions of the Bush administration are one of the reasons that politics has deteriorated so badly in this country although I think things are improving.  In contrast to some posters- I have the courage to not want to falsely imprison people for my own supposed safety, and I will accept the risk of dealing with another terrorist attack.  We have acted as a nation of sniveling cowards, torturing people for our own "security" and the world and our country is a far worse place for it.


Sam


Whenever your ready you have my vote![sm=applause.gif]



barelynangel -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:58:04 AM)

Then you should be content in your sainthood  -- no i apologize that wasn't fair to you, your ability to stand by what you think is right and walk away from a situation you don't.  and i honestly hope you never are confronted with a less than easy decision to make and really question whether you fully understand what your ethics mean.  I have known doctors who have had to take a damn hard look at what those ethics you claim to know and realize sometimes words are meant to be interpreted in fact ARE interpretable.   But i guess people like to believe things are black and white solely because it makes them feel as if they are doing it all right. 

You cause harm to people when you stick them with needles.  Just as an example, which i presume you probably do or have done.  Do you continue to harm them? 

Next time, try quoting the WHOLE sentence -- hell the WHOLE post as the one little bit you quoted is within the context of the whole.   I do honestly see your point, but i also have no clue with regard to what situations you have been involved in that have helped you define what exactly that means in your profession.   I presume you have never been put in the situation based on the vague information provided here and had to make a decision of walking away or doing your job within the parameters they allow you too.  And then what you would define as part of your job.  If you have, then i am really sorry you were in such a situation and i hope you made the decision you can sleep with at night.  i know many couldn't walk away because they would feel that they could help the situation somehow.  They could control it.  They could somehow be of some help in making it a humane concept within their own definition.  But i guess most people just want to castrate them based on the reports and not speaking to the people making those decisions.

angel



slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:00:13 AM)

Barely you keep missing the point,whether intentionally or not I have no idea,you caution us against a rush to judgement here on a message board.All the while defending the actions of those who held and interrogated others without benefit of a warrant,right to confront their accusers or even to know what the specific charges made against them.
Can you not see the hole in your own argument?Our mere words hold no consequences...no one's liberty or health is in danger contrary to what went on at Gitmo...and by the way on what information do you reach the conclusion that all the prisoners were "bad guys".Whose evidence are you accepting?...what legal proceedings are you privy to that the rest of us have not heard of?



Owner59 -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:03:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

oh vey, okay well let's see who knows all the ins and outs of what actually happened, why it was happening and the specifics of what the medics were doing as well as statements of people who actually KNEW what was happening.  Who can take actual instances of what happened and place them in the specifics of the whole reasoning, motivation, and determination of parameters people had to work within.

Or are people going to just jump up and down and say torture torture -- how awful and wrong based on their BELIEFS of what torture is.  I mean hell to me beating someone black and blue is TORTURE and is not ethically responsible based on all the things that happen when it occurs as well as potentials but i bet many people would object to same.   I also believe much of what people see as torture is a concept of aggressive interrogation.  I am not condoning it, but yeah, unfortunately having seen what i have as to what humans are capable of doing to each other, i understand it.

I have seen what humans are capable of doing to each other,  and well, most people really have never been tested as to their ethical decisions.  To me, these people were and until we know how they perceive it to be ethical, i can't condone it to be unethical.  I have never had my ethics tested to this point, sure i can talk about it and discuss it with a bunch of nicknames online lol but i have no clue if in a situation how my ethics will come into play and how i will ultimately define them based on the ultimate of testing of my beliefs.

But of you are simply trying to start crap with me because it makes you look cool, don't bother.   Its not my definition of a cool person.

angel


They seem quite normal.Your POV?...not so much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThyCwhjRXhg&feature=related

So as far as you`re concerned,if it wasn`t recorded on video and witnessed by a noterypublic,it didn`t happen?

Is that the jist?



kittinSol -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:04:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

It strikes me that arguing over the definition of torture in this fashion, i.e. what exactly were the specifics done- is a page right out of the Nazi handbook. 



Very much so, yes.



kittinSol -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:12:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

So as far as you`re concerned,if it wasn`t recorded on video and witness by a noterypublic,it didn`t happen?

Is that the jist?


Looks like it. Also, when someone 'works in med mal law' (does this mean for an insurance company, by the way?), they're automatically far more qualified than anybody else to comment on torture (sorry: on 'extracting information from presumed terrorists by using violent treatments that nonetheless depart as little as possible from within the confines of the law')  [&:] .



FirmhandKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:19:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

So who will it be, the CIA or the Red Cross?


"Stopped beating your wife?", huh? (false choice fallacy)

It is such a black and white world in which you live, isn't it, kittin?

"For us or against us" from you too. Bush would be proud. [:D]

Firm



samboct -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:20:19 AM)

"Whenever your ready you have my vote![sm=applause.gif] "

Thanks, but I doubt I could get elected dogcatcher on an island with no dogs.

Sam



FirmhandKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:23:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

So as far as you`re concerned,if it wasn`t recorded on video and witness by a noterypublic,it didn`t happen?

Is that the jist?


Looks like it. Also, when someone 'works in med mal law' (does this mean for an insurance company, by the way?), they're automatically far more qualified than anybody else to comment on torture (sorry: on 'extracting information from presumed terrorists by using violent treatments that nonetheless depart as little as possible from within the confines of the law')  [&:] .


hmmm ....

What, exactly, are your qualifications in the ethical fields of medical practice?

What, exactly, are your qualifications in the field of moral philosophy?

What, exactly, are your qualifications in the understanding and history of warfare?

What, exactly, are your qualifications in the field of interrogation?

I could go on ...

Firm



kittinSol -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:25:18 AM)

Note: that (jokey, wry, fed up) comment wasn't addressed to you - but I appreciate your urge to engage me in conversation.




slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:25:23 AM)

Firm thats the point...it isn't a black and white world,that's as good an argument for due process as any other.If you can show me any of the inhabitants at gitmo received due process at any point....well than you have a discussion,if not just being held there was a form of torture...
Before denying a man of his most fundamental right...his liberty ,we owe ot to ourselves to do everything in our power to ascertain ,as far as possible,his guilt or innocence.Otherwise we lost far more than some buildings and 3,000 some odd souls on 9/11...we lost our way.



kittinSol -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:27:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

What, exactly, are your qualifications in the field of interrogation?



Me, a waterboard, and you tied up on it. What says you?



slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:30:50 AM)

pick me ,pick me...please Kittin pick me.



barelynangel -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:37:25 AM)

Owner 59, Nope but if it makes you feel better believing that's what i am saying, so be it lol.  You seem more intelligent than that however. 

Mike, the name is angel or barelynangel thanks.  I do get what everyone is saying here, i just don't agree that an arbitrary outcry SANCTIONS them or CASTRATE them or they are bloody awful human beings is in order.  I have stated no, i don't believe that is correct.  I never said they shouldn't be questioned.   I guess in my view just as people are screaming that the prisoners had rights -- so do these medical professionals, and so if you can't bring yourself to outcry that these prisoners deserve everything they got without actually knowing what they deserved, then you shouldn't be saying the medics do.  I mean hell some of these guys could very well be getting what they should. As i have been saying, sometimes its not black and white.  IF you read what i am saying, versus being determined i am saying i am for torture or that

I am just a person who believes somethings need to occur and feel more information is needed before a witch hunt happens.

If people stop trying to see what i am saying as i am condoning torture hurting of people, rights being lost etc, perhaps you will see what i am saying.  grins, i guess while most are on the side of the prisoners detainees whatnot defending their rights, i am defending the rights of the medical professionals lol - which many seem to have forgetten THEY have also. 

Other than the deliberate insults people have thrown on this thread, its been insightful and interesting.  I don't see anyone as good or bad, just different opinions as to how this should play out.  

angel



kittinSol -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:39:02 AM)

Where in the fuck did you see anybody calling for the 'castration' of the people involved [:(] ? This isn't the General BDSM discussions, you know.



IrishMist -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:39:14 AM)

quote:

At times, according to the detainees’ accounts, medical workers “gave instructions to interrogators to continue, to adjust or to stop particular methods.”


Score one for the medical workers [8D]



barelynangel -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:42:35 AM)

bad Irish bad!! lol



slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 10:48:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Owner 59, Nope but if it makes you feel better believing that's what i am saying, so be it lol.  You seem more intelligent than that however. 

Mike, the name is angel or barelynangel thanks.  I do get what everyone is saying here, i just don't agree that an arbitrary outcry SANCTIONS them or CASTRATE them or they are bloody awful human beings is in order.  I have stated no, i don't believe that is correct.  I never said they shouldn't be questioned.   I guess in my view just as people are screaming that the prisoners had rights -- so do these medical professionals, and so if you can't bring yourself to outcry that these prisoners deserve everything they got without actually knowing what they deserved, then you shouldn't be saying the medics do.  I mean hell some of these guys could very well be getting what they should. As i have been saying, sometimes its not black and white.  IF you read what i am saying, versus being determined i am saying i am for torture or that

I am just a person who believes somethings need to occur and feel more information is needed before a witch hunt happens.

If people stop trying to see what i am saying as i am condoning torture hurting of people, rights being lost etc, perhaps you will see what i am saying.  grins, i guess while most are on the side of the prisoners detainees whatnot defending their rights, i am defending the rights of the medical professionals lol - which many seem to have forgetten THEY have also. 

Other than the deliberate insults people have thrown on this thread, its been insightful and interesting.  I don't see anyone as good or bad, just different opinions as to how this should play out.  

angel
Okay ANGEL,I have read what your saying...the question is are you reading what others are saying.Do you understand that since this is nothing but a message board our words here have no actual consequences,other than to our own reputations,you seem more worried about the rush to judgement here(again no consequences as a result of what is said here) rather than the rush to judgement that might have led to some of these peoples confinement at gitmo.



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