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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 4:23:58 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		My mother-in-law and I have had quite a number of discussions about being pc.  She is in a position of authority at her job and errs on the side of sounding utterly ridiculous.  I, on the other hand, deal with each situation as is required.  If you are doing something stupid, I will tell you exactly that.  I try to begin my personal dealings in a diplomatic manner.  If you begin being rude, arrogant, holier-than-thou, or any other form of obnoxious you have removed all reasons for diplomacy.  I then have the rights and the courage to tell you to shut your effin piehole. 
Racial slurs have nothing to do with pc.  To put someone down over race, religion, or creed is to show your own ignorance and that you are a waste of oxygen that a human being could be breathing.   I do not suffer the use of such terms around me without letting the user know that he is lower than snail cum.
I am often admittedly and unashamedly rude.  It is my nature.  Get my dander up and you'll get told where to go.  Follow simple rules of basic human interaction and you can say almost anything to me. 
I realize that my typed messages make me sound cold and heartless at times but even I follow rules of decency in my speech and interaction with others.  I think the "pc" movement is just people carrying things too far because they don't want to hurt people's feelings.  Sometimes people need to have their feelings hurt.  Sometimes they deserve it and have earned it.  Sometimes they learn from it and become less useless.
Anyone remember my post about the snob in the Prius who tried to engage me in conversation at the gas pumps by saying, "I bet you wish you had bought one of these instead of that gas guzzling status symbol?"  My answer was, "When they make the Prius in men's models, I'll consider buying one."  Before I left, I told him that I use my truck to pull my horse trailer and that he should think before being and arrogant prick to a perfect stranger.  I guaranty that my words weren't pc but they were damned sure what he needed to hear and take to heart.  If he learned from them, he may avoid an ass whooping in the future.

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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 4:32:57 PM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline 		I'd rather be hurt by words and know what I'm up against.  Otherwise, it is just "catty" comments that can be hurtful as well.  Tell me you think I'm an bald nerd instead of a "follicularly challenged, under-attractive, cerebrally gifted individual."   Words have meanings.  Occam's Razor means keeping it simple is usually the better path.

Another example, remember when the "F-bomb" was among the things that Senator Exon tried to get "fixed" with his Internet Decency Act?

What happened?  People used his name in lieu of the F-bomb.  "You are so exonned."   Etc.
And on Battlestar Galactica...."frack" replaced "F-bomb" 

Consider the N-word.  Not OK, yet OK?    It is mostly going away, except in certain cultural environments, because of the negativity it has gained.  Yet people will still find other ways to slander one another for things they can't change (well, except Michael Jackson) such as skin color, hair color, birthplace, and so on.  Instead, beat on them for things they CAN change.

/OT
And you need words, LOTS of words, because by themselves aren't very effective communication tools.  (7-10% words ; 30+% tone; 50+% visual)  

Consider:     read.      Which is it?  Past or Present tense? 

/e OT



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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 4:36:30 PM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Let's see, you have nothing whatsoever intelligent to say about the actual content of the piece, but everyone who dislikes PC implicitly "stands for" something unrelated to it and which it did not say.


You do realise that Lind's entire thesis is based on guilt by association and supposition, and based on far flimsier ground than direct quotations?

And what I'm actually arguing is that someone who addresses Holocaust Denial conferences and is a member of the far right probably has their own motives for objecting to "political correctness".  As opposed to being a non-partisan academic source on their subject.

Would you suggest that Zinn's Marxism has no bearing on his views on history?

But yes, you're right that it's unfair to suggest that those who are anti PC stand for the same things that Lind does.  Would it be more acceptable to say that you don't object to allying with those that do?
 


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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 5:39:39 PM   
Marc2b


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Status: offline 		Not calling people racial slurs or retard or whatever is not political correctness.  It is simple civility born of decency.  Political correctness is ideological tyranny masquerading as civility.

What? You’re against Affirmative Action?  Then you are a racist and nobody should listen to you, so shut the fuck up!  Anybody else out there against Affirmative Action?  Then you better shut the fuck up too or we’ll smear you as a racist.

Janeane Garofalo’s calling everyone at the Tea Party Protests racists is an excellent example of Political Correctness.  The whole point of her tirade is to intimidate people whose viewpoints she doesn’t like into keeping their mouths shut.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 4/21/2009 5:40:22 PM >

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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 6:00:20 PM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

Sexual harassment is a pc issue also. You don't go up to one coworker and say "nice hooters" and then turn to the one she's talking to and say "too bad yours aren't so big". It's rude and offensive and it should get you fired. Which hopefully will teach someone to think before they speak.


Isn’t sexual harassment more of a consent issue?

Kim


In the example I quoted, the man who said these things to the two coworkers who were eating lunch did not ask them first if they would be offended if he commented frankly on their sexual attractiveness. And he was surprised when he got fired shortly after doing this.

They were having lunch together before getting back to the customer service desk. At no point did they invite a man 40 years older than them to make personal comments. How could they give consent when they weren't asked? It's offensive and makes women feel afraid, to have men feel free to comment on them as if they were so much merchandise to be sampled and felt. And when people feel free to speak like this about other people, they shortly thereafter feel free to act upon their thoughts

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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 6:00:37 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Marc under the very meaning of political correctness Janeane Garofalo was not being political correct...so how can you use that as an example.

The meaning is to express a point without offending the political sensibilities of those the comments were directed at.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/21/2009 6:01:23 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 6:13:58 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Marc under the very meaning of political correctness Janeane Garofalo was not being political correct...so how can you use that as an example.

The meaning is to express a point without offending the political sensibilities of those the comments were directed at.


Wrong.  As I said, political correctness only pretends to be concerned about not offending others.  In reality it is about smearing anyone who refuses to toe the line as defined by the speaker.  Garofalo doesn't want to hear from those who disagree with her, so she simply smears them as racists.

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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 6:19:36 PM   
Vendaval


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That is the kind of remark that will get someone slapped in public.  What a dumb-ass!

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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 6:27:45 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Marc under the very meaning of political correctness Janeane Garofalo was not being political correct...so how can you use that as an example.

The meaning is to express a point without offending the political sensibilities of those the comments were directed at.


Wrong.  As I said, political correctness only pretends to be concerned about not offending others.  In reality it is about smearing anyone who refuses to toe the line as defined by the speaker.  Garofalo doesn't want to hear from those who disagree with her, so she simply smears them as racists.


I agree she is smearing but she is not political correct to use the language she used.... so it is a poor example... I got as far as rednecks and I knew that.

You are confusing your political views with what is politically correct language. Hell could you not smear an opposing view without using political incorrect language?... I'll bet you could do a good job… and it would be even more scathing for its correctness.

Butch

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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 6:35:37 PM   
cpK69


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Joined: 5/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

In the example I quoted, the man who said these things to the two coworkers who were eating lunch did not ask them first if they would be offended if he commented frankly on their sexual attractiveness. And he was surprised when he got fired shortly after doing this.

They were having lunch together before getting back to the customer service desk. At no point did they invite a man 40 years older than them to make personal comments. How could they give consent when they weren't asked?


That is what I meant by the statement. The issue in that situation is a lack of consent by the females. If the man were being politically correct, he would have used the word breasts, instead of hooters. (still inappropriate without consent)
quote:


It's offensive and makes women feel afraid, to have men feel free to comment on them as if they were so much merchandise to be sampled and felt.

My concern is the belief that getting them to stop by not allowing such things to be said, overlooks the real issue. (highlighted above) I would prefer to learn to defend myself, it seems like a more reliable source of protection.
quote:


And when people feel free to speak like this about other people, they shortly thereafter feel free to act upon their thoughts

Isn’t this true, only if they get away with it?
Kim


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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 6:37:19 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

You are confusing your political views with what is politically correct language.


No I am not.  Political correctness is politically one sided.  If Garofalo had been a right winger who had called a bunch of black people niggers, that would be politically incorrect.  Since she is a left winger calling (mostly) white people rednecks, it is perfectly acceptable.  That's political correctness.  Be left wing or else.

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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 6:53:31 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

You are confusing your political views with what is politically correct language.


No I am not.  Political correctness is politically one sided.  If Garofalo had been a right winger who had called a bunch of black people niggers, that would be politically incorrect.  Since she is a left winger calling (mostly) white people rednecks, it is perfectly acceptable.  That's political correctness.  Be left wing or else.


Now if you don't agree with me I may have to get politically incorrect...lol...Now how is calling someone a redneck for their political view political correctness?

Forget who and what party or what issue... just the words.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 7:11:56 PM   
Marc2b


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Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

Now if you don't agree with me I may have to get politically incorrect...lol...Now how is calling someone a redneck for their political view political correctness?

Forget who and what party or what issue... just the words.


That's the problem.  Political correctness is not neutral.  The party (or rather, the political philosophy) and the issue are central to political correctness.  In the example I cite it is the protestors who are being politically incorrect because the President they are critisizing is liberal and black... therefore they must be racists... therefore you can say whatever nasty thing you want to about them.  Having determined that the teabag protestors were racists, Garofalo felt perfectly free to smear them because, after all, she was a noble and good person and they were not.  


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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 7:18:28 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Since she is a left winger calling (mostly) white people rednecks, it is perfectly acceptable.  That's political correctness.  Be left wing or else.


Pure BS. She was politically incorrect, but it pains you to admit it because it shoots your argument down. It may just be more socially 'acceptable' or tolerable to say what she said... but it doesn't make it any more PC.

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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 7:45:20 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Pure BS. She was politically incorrect, but it pains you to admit it because it shoots your argument down. It may just be more socially 'acceptable' or tolerable to say what she said... but it doesn't make it any more PC.


It is not bull shit.  It is the reality of the situation.  Political correctness is a weapon that the Left uses against the Right (just as "patriotism" is a weapon that the Right uses against the Left).  It is the demand for civility, such civility being solely defined by the Left.  It is not Garofalo who is being politically incorrect, it is the protestors. 



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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 7:54:48 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Political correctness is a weapon that the Left uses against the Right (just as "patriotism" is a weapon that the Right uses against the Left). 



And this is the deliberately erroneous definition of PC by the right.

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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 8:06:41 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

And this is the deliberately erroneous definition of PC by the right.


If PC were about mere civility then why isn't is called "civil correctness?"  It is called political correctness percisely because it is about which political views are the "correct" ones.



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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 8:14:45 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		There. Inform yoursel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness.

This extract from the intro: "Some commentators have argued that the term "political correctness" is a straw man used by conservatives in the 1990s in order to challenge leftist social change, especially with respect to issues of race, religion and gender." is particularly apt to your case :-) .


< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/21/2009 8:15:11 PM >

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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 8:18:16 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


There's nothing wrong in analysing language and in making sure that it evolves as a force for progress. 



If the Germans would have forced French language to evolve during the war, how well do you think the French would have taken it? Say, evolve it until it is exactly like German. People don't take well to being told what they will and will not speak.

Trying to make a person's words change won't change what they think or feel. Except that they will fight you that much harder. And not necessarily because they disagree with your reason but because you tried to force them.

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RE: Political Correctness ? - 4/21/2009 8:44:10 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Not calling people racial slurs or retard or whatever is not political correctness.  It is simple civility born of decency.  Political correctness is ideological tyranny masquerading as civility.

What? You’re against Affirmative Action?  Then you are a racist and nobody should listen to you, so shut the fuck up!  Anybody else out there against Affirmative Action?  Then you better shut the fuck up too or we’ll smear you as a racist.

Janeane Garofalo’s calling everyone at the Tea Party Protests racists is an excellent example of Political Correctness.  The whole point of her tirade is to intimidate people whose viewpoints she doesn’t like into keeping their mouths shut.


Wow. A nutball calling other people nutballs.  Doctor Janeane Garofalo?

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