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ORIGINAL: sweetgirlseeks

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ORIGINAL: Malkinius
If you become a slave, your happiness doesn't matter. What you want doesn't matter. What you want to do or don't want to do and when you do or don't want to do or not do it doesn't matter. You don't matter. When you are ready for that level of obedience and service, think hard about it then run like hell the other way. Only return to it if you can't do and be anything else. Otherwise you will be unhappy and will make other people unhappy.

Hello Malkinius,
Not to be argumentative, because I certainly respect your experience, etc... but the two statements that you made that I underlined above are a bit much I think.

If a girl is totally unhappy and is made to feel like she 'doesn't matter'... she will walk... unless she is totally lacking in self esteem.  

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I would rephrase it to say, if you are a slave, your happiness is primarily derived from your owner's happiness.  The primary thing that drives your own happiness and sense of value, is making your owner happy and knowing that he finds you pleasing and valuable in your service to him.       The slavegirl, i think, finds her true happiness in hearing 'good girl', seeing that smile on her owner's face and knowing in her heart that He finds her pleasing to Him.    Of course, if he is just 'some guy' and not a Man who inspires her to serve him fully with grace and fire, she will probably find herself perhaps content at best, but rather hollow and uninspired.  If the latter is the case, i can see where she might start looking to her own selfish needs for happiness.    That wouldn't be so much because she is not a slave, but perhaps, because she is serving the wrong Master for her.

~sgs

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ORIGINAL: hunnibunni09

im am just recently out of my very first D/s relation ship we split after  almost 10months due to alot of misunderstandings i admitt mainly on my behalf    but the main problems were that i was madly head over heels in love he was too i and i have no doubt in my mind about that now.

but while in the relationship i just couldnt understand how he could love yet treat me and act the way he did   such as not allowing me somehwere, refusing permssion to do something, speak 2 me in a certain manner and left evreything such as chores and cooking to me  never helped out once  the fights would end where he demanded they end        we had disscussions and talked about this alot but he always had the same answer  the basis of our relationship had never changed  i was just caught up on the whole in love thing   

the problem is the relationship was always like this from day go and i was happy with that untill a few months ago yet i still yern for it now, yet when i had it i couldnt

i guess the piont to my post is im curious has anybody ever gone thrugh this? does love change things? does a Master love his slave differently to how he could love a free woman?
is BDSM love diiferent to that of vannila?>

the way i can describe what it felt like is that my body and mind loved it  but in the end my heart was hurting      yet the nature and generally nothing in the relationship had ever changed.

i would really appricate O/others views on this
thanks
hunnibunni xoxox

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ORIGINAL: Malkinius

You are right about one of the places where a slave's happiness comes from. But you are not completely right. A consensual slave's happiness comes from two places. The first is the act of serving others and second is the pleasure others get from her actions. Subs are happy when they get what they want even if it is abuse and pain. The difference is inner and outer directed happiness.

I said a slave's happiness doesn't matter. What she does matters. How pleased her owner is with her matters. Things can be done with and to her irregardless of whether a slave is happy about them or not. Commands are given not based on her happiness with them or their results or anything else about her. She...the person who is the slave doesn't matter if a command is given. She obeys or she doesn't. That matters. How she obeys matters as well.

You are right in that any owner who doesn't take into account the physical well being of his slave is stupid. The same goes for her mental well being as well. But, sometimes, especially when he wants to make a point, those things are ignored. Sometimes they may even be deliberately done so she will not be happy about it. The point is....when all is said and done....a slave's whishes, interests, happiness, etc. doesn't matter. What she is and does matters. What she is to her owner matters. That is the point of being property. You matter only in how you affect others. Anything else is just playing games that you can stop when it stops being fun.

Be well....

Malkinius

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ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Greetings sweetgirlseeks.....

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ORIGINAL: sweetgirlseeks

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ORIGINAL: Malkinius
If you become a slave, your happiness doesn't matter. What you want doesn't matter. What you want to do or don't want to do and when you do or don't want to do or not do it doesn't matter. You don't matter. When you are ready for that level of obedience and service, think hard about it then run like hell the other way. Only return to it if you can't do and be anything else. Otherwise you will be unhappy and will make other people unhappy.

Hello Malkinius,
Not to be argumentative, because I certainly respect your experience, etc... but the two statements that you made that I underlined above are a bit much I think.

If a girl is totally unhappy and is made to feel like she 'doesn't matter'... she will walk... unless she is totally lacking in self esteem.  

 
I did expect some sub or slave to say something about that. You are right, but that still doesn't change what I said. The reason why below.

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I would rephrase it to say, if you are a slave, your happiness is primarily derived from your owner's happiness.  The primary thing that drives your own happiness and sense of value, is making your owner happy and knowing that he finds you pleasing and valuable in your service to him.       The slavegirl, i think, finds her true happiness in hearing 'good girl', seeing that smile on her owner's face and knowing in her heart that He finds her pleasing to Him.    Of course, if he is just 'some guy' and not a Man who inspires her to serve him fully with grace and fire, she will probably find herself perhaps content at best, but rather hollow and uninspired.  If the latter is the case, i can see where she might start looking to her own selfish needs for happiness.    That wouldn't be so much because she is not a slave, but perhaps, because she is serving the wrong Master for her.

~sgs

You are right about one of the places where a slave's happiness comes from. But you are not completely right. A consensual slave's happiness comes from two places. The first is the act of serving others and second is the pleasure others get from her actions. Subs are happy when they get what they want even if it is abuse and pain. The difference is inner and outer directed happiness.

I said a slave's happiness doesn't matter. What she does matters. How pleased her owner is with her matters. Things can be done with and to her irregardless of whether a slave is happy about them or not. Commands are given not based on her happiness with them or their results or anything else about her. She...the person who is the slave doesn't matter if a command is given. She obeys or she doesn't. That matters. How she obeys matters as well.

You are right in that any owner who doesn't take into account the physical well being of his slave is stupid. The same goes for her mental well being as well. But, sometimes, especially when he wants to make a point, those things are ignored. Sometimes they may even be deliberately done so she will not be happy about it. The point is....when all is said and done....a slave's whishes, interests, happiness, etc. doesn't matter. What she is and does matters. What she is to her owner matters. That is the point of being property. You matter only in how you affect others. Anything else is just playing games that you can stop when it stops being fun.

Be well....

Malkinius

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ORIGINAL: DomImus

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ORIGINAL: Arpig
Well, I may get a little flack for this, but if you go calling yourself a slave, you really don't have much right to complain when you are treated like a slave, now do you?

This is a valid point but I think people fall in love with the imagery and then find that the reality is an eye opener. I may get a little flack for this but most submissives I have known are ready to submit as long as it is on their own terms.

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is BDSM love diiferent to that of vannila?>

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ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Face it. Most people are not cut out to be a slave or to Master a slave. This is what Doms and subs are for. To go there when they want to then come back when it is no longer fun to play the game/the lifestyle/whatever you want to call what it is that they do. Too many people take on titles because it sounds good rather than because they have a clue what they do. Yes, it bugs those who do. I call them as I have seen them in practice. Yes, I have much higher standards than most. No, I don't cut people slack when it comes to being what they claim to be. And I really don't care if I insult or hurt someone's feelings if it keeps them out of much worse trouble and danger. It is better they be pissed at me than damaged or dead.

Be well.....

Malkinius

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Which brings into play the ridiculous concept that there is "one, true, accepted" way of being any of those titles.  There isn't.  There is what the two people in the relationship find to be the "true" way for them.  The key, of course, is for those two people to meet and develop a relationship.  Yes, the Goreans have a series of book that apparently more clearly defines what everyone is.  But when real people are involved, you step out of the book and into reality.  The very idea that everyone else is simply playing a "game" is ludicrous.  Relationships that we read about in books (ALL FICTIONAL BOOKS) are rarely close to reality.  It doesn't matter whether it is the typical romance novel where love conquers all, or science fiction.  The people in the relationship define their roles in the way that works for them. 

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Everyone always has a choice.  Do young people discover a curiousity and yearning and perhaps jump into this type of relationship far too quickly, only to find out that the reality falls far short of the fantasy?  Of course they do.  The problem only worsens when those poor inexperienced people come to these boards looking for advice and to learn more to be told they made a decision and now need to "suck it up" and deal with it.  Certainly sometimes a person will find out that they might define themselves differently than they originally planned, but never have they REALLY surrendered their choices.  The danger of "damage or death" comes from telling them that they have.  The danger is in trying to tell people that there is only one "true" way of doing things.  Of course you are free to hold people to YOUR definition of what the definitions are, but it doesn't make your definition right.  It only makes it right for you.  There are more than a few couples on here who identify themselves as being in M/s relationships that probably don't meet your "standard."  It doesn't make their relationship any less M/s, because it works for them.

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Advising those people in a way that keeps them out of harm's way is not accomplished by telling them they defined themselves incorrectly.  It is accomplished with reminding them that regardless of how they identify, they are human beings with thoughts, feelings and hopefully some common sense and that just because they identify a certain way does NOT necessitate their surrender of any of those things.  Yet far too often that is exactly what so many inexperienced "slaves" are told.  They do not need to feel happy or fufilled.  "Master" is deciding their fate now and their only job is to "obey."  Again, they serve BECAUSE it makes them happy, BECAUSE it makes them fufilled.  They are happy when they make their master happy and fufilled, yes, but it is still done because that is what makes them happy.  No one enters into a consensual slavery dynamic because it will make "master" happy.  It is because making "master" happy is what makes them happy.  That is why slaves CHOOSE their masters.  If serving just anyone with total disregard for their own happiness was actually the way it worked....all those fools who contact women with the "on your knees bitch, I am now your master" emails would have more slaves they could handle because all of the slaves would instantly obey.  Those that kid themselves into thinking slaves serve just for the sake of serving are just fooling themselves.

Greetings Mistress LafayetteLady,

With all due respect, you have no idea what drives all of us slaves to do what we do, specifically you don't know what drives kazza to need to serve at a man's feet. she doesn't just want to serve she needs to serve, is compelled to serve, without it she would be tremendously unhappy and unfulfilled. You knock Master Malkinius for saying there is only one true way and then do it yourself saying we serve merely because we want to. While it's true we serve a particular man because we want to, feel a connection to him, the need to serve doesn't disappear just because there isn't a man to serve at the moment.

kazza tried to turn her back on being a slave, it worked for a couple of weeks. The need was just too strong to ignore. So in a sense no she doesn't have a choice unless she wants to end up very, very unhappy and perhaps "damaged" from trying to deny what she is at her core - a slave in general, Gorean specifically. But no we aren't happy all the time noone is.  The fact is that just like everyone else there are times we aren't happy at all - but we stay. Not being happy and fulfilled at the moment isn't reason enough to leave, abuse is and that's entirely different.

Yes it's true that two people meet and decide what the slave's service will entail but the thing is that with Gorean slaves (and no she isn't saying we are better than non-Gorean slaves) is that we are expected to behave a certain way. To give one example, if a slave talks back to a Master or Mistress, that slave is put back in her place, she is expected to be respectful at all times no matter how she feels about that person. For example breathesasone's reply: "Well i'm SO glad someone finally told me where MY happiness comes from ....i'd love to know your source for info on where consensual slave get there happiness." would result in one hell of a lecture on how to behave, there is no way kazza would get away with saying such things. That doesn't make her behavior wrong, just not acceptable to us. The things a slave says and does reflects on her Master. So yes Gorean slaves are different - not better, not worse just different. We are held to a higher standard than most, again not better just different. If a Master is okay with his slave speaking as slaves such as breathesasone speaks that's great, no problem, it's just not slave as we define it.

Of course kazza has the right to leave if a particular relationship isn't working, noone is saying we don't. On the other hand, many give up when being a slave isn't fun anymore, just as many give up on a vanilla relationship when times get tough. Many have a fantasy vision of slavery and when the reality hits (coming home from work and then taking care of the household no matter how tired the slave is, getting up to make Master his coffee no matter how badly she slept the night before) it becomes too hard and they want to leave. kazza believes such people are submissives not slaves and certainly not Gorean slaves. Again that's fine, it doesn't make that person less of a person - just not slave and certainly not Gorean slave. We don't get to negotiate what we will and will not do, which is why a long conversation about what the Master expects of his slave before begging his collar is a very good idea. There is no contract signed, so the slave had better be clear on what she is getting herself into because from the time his collar is locked around her neck her only choice is to leave.

kazza is going to stop now, she has gone on long enough. she begs you to understand that she isn't saying you're 100% wrong, just that what you say doesn't cover what slavery is like for all slaves and to give you an idea of what slavery is like for kazza and Gorean slaves.

she wishes you well,

kazza

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ORIGINAL: Malkinius


You are right about one of the places where a slave's happiness comes from. But you are not completely right. A consensual slave's happiness comes from two places. The first is the act of serving others and second is the pleasure others get from her actions. Subs are happy when they get what they want even if it is abuse and pain. The difference is inner and outer directed happiness.

Not necessarily, I'm happy when I get what I need........I can get what I want perfectly easily without being owned. Inside this relationship I oftentimes do not get what I want.

I said a slave's happiness doesn't matter. What she does matters. How pleased her owner is with her matters. Things can be done with and to her irregardless of whether a slave is happy about them or not. Commands are given not based on her happiness with them or their results or anything else about her. She...the person who is the slave doesn't matter if a command is given. She obeys or she doesn't. That matters. How she obeys matters as well.

This simply isn't true of all Owner/owned relationships. I've been owned in a TPE relationship for years and what you're describing is ONE particular way of being part of a TPE dynamic.

You are right in that any owner who doesn't take into account the physical well being of his slave is stupid. The same goes for her mental well being as well. But, sometimes, especially when he wants to make a point, those things are ignored. Sometimes they may even be deliberately done so she will not be happy about it. The point is....when all is said and done....a slave's whishes, interests, happiness, etc. doesn't matter. What she is and does matters. What she is to her owner matters. That is the point of being property. You matter only in how you affect others. Anything else is just playing games that you can stop when it stops being fun.

I disagree. The point of being *property* is decided by the two people entering into the relationship. I do NOT matter ONLY in how I affect others. I matter as a person with my own wishes, interests and my own happiness. None of that was thrown out when I became owned, lock stock and barrel. None of those things are ever ignored when a point is being made, they are firmly in the front of his mind.

You make an assumption that to choose to be consentually owned means that your happiness comes from serving, and the pleasure others get from your actions. This isn't the case universally.

I chose to be owned for the direction and control I get in an amazing way from a supremely clever and skilled person. I get my happiness from the result of that. I do not have a serving nature, I do not derive my sole happiness from being *submissive*. I think of myself before I think of him, I am a selfish person.

You're creeping into the realms of defining what a *slave* IS, what she wants, what she needs and what she chose to be owned FOR. I live in exactly the same way with entirely different motives. It may not alter the nuts and bolts of what I have to do or how comfortable some of it is.

I have to obey, eventually, or I do not have a D/s relationship........I have to follow his direction , or I do not have a D/s relationship...I have to defer to his will, or I do not have a D/s relationship..........I have to accept that I gave him the right to have authority over me, or I do not have a D/s relationship.......but the reasons for doing so are not the ones you espouse.

No, *anything else* is not playing games....it might just be outside of your realm of experience.


Malkinius

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ORIGINAL: kazzaslave

Greetings Mistress LafayetteLady,

With all due respect, you have no idea what drives all of us slaves to do what we do,
kazza

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Gorean slaves (and no she isn't saying we are better than non-Gorean slaves) is that we are expected to behave a certain way. To give one example, if a slave talks back to a Master or Mistress, that slave is put back in her place, she is expected to be respectful at all times no matter how she feels about that person. For example breathesasone's reply: "Well i'm SO glad someone finally told me where MY happiness comes from ....i'd love to know your source for info on where consensual slave get there happiness." would result in one hell of a lecture on how to behave, there is no way kazza would get away with saying such things. That doesn't make her behavior wrong, just not acceptable to us. The things a slave says and does reflects on her Master. So yes Gorean slaves are different - not better, not worse just different. We are held to a higher standard than most, again not better just different. If a Master is okay with his slave speaking as slaves such as breathesasone speaks that's great, no problem, it's just not slave as we define it.

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While it's true we serve a particular man because we want to, feel a connection to him, the need to serve doesn't disappear just because there isn't a man to serve at the moment.

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ORIGINAL: kazzaslave

Greetings Des,

Yes absolutely her Master shouldn't have just left her lying there. On the subject of working long hours and then having to come home and do more such as preparing his dinner, kazza disagrees. This is exactly how it is as a Gorean slave which is what the OP states she is looking for in her profile. What the OP doesn't say is that she worked longer hours than her Master, in fact she started earlier and got home before he did. Her gripe was that he didn't clear away the breakfast things because he started later. It sounds like they didn't have a good conversation about expectations although she does say it went on a long time before she got upset.

As kazza stated in her last post this is how it is as the slave of a Gorean man and it's not for everyone. Clearly it's not for the OP and she should rethink what it is she wants.

she wishes you well,

kazza