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A lot of women have had no option in the past but to be the slaves of men.

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Staying in a bad relationship where you are miserable is never a good idea. The idea that you can leave is far from ridiculous. There are so many abused women who leave with no where to go because it is what is necessary for their safety. Saying you have no where to go is an excuse and a cop out. But it a problem that starts when a person (usually a woman) lives only for her man's happiness and becomes "unmarketable" in the working world. Everyone should have the courage and foresight to make sure that they can care for themselves. Not just because relationships end, but because people die. In both cases, a person can find themselve without means of support because someone else was doing it all their lives.

The idea that one must be "priveledged" to be able to leave is ludicrous. But I guess it all comes down to how much you value yourself and whether or not you think you are deserving of happiness. I'm not saying it is ever a simple, easy decision. In fact, I think before ending ANY relationship, a great deal of thought should go into the decision. But if the bad outweighs the good, and there isn't a way to change that balance, staying and being miserable isn't worth it.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

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ORIGINAL: lateralist1

The idea that we can all leave relationships that don't make us happy is rediculous.
The priveledged few can. A lot don't have anywhere to go.

Staying in a bad relationship where you are miserable is never a good idea.  The idea that you can leave is far from ridiculous.  There are so many abused women who leave with no where to go because it is what is necessary for their safety.  Saying you have no where to go is an excuse and a cop out.  But it a problem that starts when a person (usually a woman) lives only for her man's happiness and becomes "unmarketable" in the working world.  Everyone should have the courage and foresight to make sure that they can care for themselves.  Not just because relationships end, but because people die.  In both cases, a person can find themselve without means of support because someone else was doing it all their lives.

The idea that one must be "priveledged" to be able to leave is ludicrous.  But I guess it all comes down to how much you value yourself and whether or not you think you are deserving of happiness.  I'm not saying it is ever a simple, easy decision.  In fact, I think before ending ANY relationship, a great deal of thought should go into the decision.  But if the bad outweighs the good, and there isn't a way to change that balance, staying and being miserable isn't worth it.

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ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

there is also a thing called relationship jumping were people just want the honeymoon period of the relationship not work at it

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ORIGINAL: IrishMist

It's not very often that I agree with you; but this time, I can say that I do.
Well said

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ORIGINAL: IronBear

I agree with LafayetteLady here on two grounds. Firstly, what may seem correct to someone in one area or country does not make it so in another where there may be more adequate support systems in place. Secondly if you study the "Battered Wife's Syndrome" you will find that a battered wife keeps returning because it is all she knows and if often afraid to make a clean break for numerous reasons and of course all to often she believes that the abusing husband will change. One of the areas I do deal with as a Therapist and as a Priest is the results of long term spousal abuse and the answers come up with this for 99.9% of the abused wives. Extending this to a wider area, when confidence is below the floor boards things appear hopeless and can be the cause of suicides too. The privilaged few are those wioth independent means such as a regular job or the means of earning a quid or of course a family who will offer financial support.

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and the remaining ten years were .... well lets just say my 5 year tour of Vietnam was a holiday in comparison..

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ORIGINAL: IrishMist

LafayetterLady

I understand what you are saying; much more than you realize.

My issue with people who come here, claiming abuse is the simple fact that they SAY that they can't do this, can't do that, can't talk to anyone, can't go anwhere, etc, blah blah...and yet, their owner would allow them to come on a website and broadcast it?

The lady who posted this added the bit about falling after her initial post...which to me says she was not getting the response she wanted so...what the hell, lets add this and Ill have EVERYONE on my side.

I just am too cynical to believe a person who comes here complaining of abuse...and I don't buy the excuse of 'this may be the only place they have to go'...that's bullshit and I know it, and most people here know it...

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ORIGINAL: IronBear

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ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

there is also a thing called relationship jumping were people just want the honeymoon period of the relationship not work at it

Guess you must have known my second wife then The first three years were pure Hollywood and the remaining and the remaining ten years were .... well lets just say my 5 year tour of  Vietnam was a holiday in comparison..

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

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ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Face it. Most people are not cut out to be a slave or to Master a slave. This is what Doms and subs are for. To go there when they want to then come back when it is no longer fun to play the game/the lifestyle/whatever you want to call what it is that they do. Too many people take on titles because it sounds good rather than because they have a clue what they do. Yes, it bugs those who do. I call them as I have seen them in practice. Yes, I have much higher standards than most. No, I don't cut people slack when it comes to being what they claim to be. And I really don't care if I insult or hurt someone's feelings if it keeps them out of much worse trouble and danger. It is better they be pissed at me than damaged or dead.

Be well.....

Malkinius

Which brings into play the ridiculous concept that there is "one, true, accepted" way of being any of those titles.  There isn't.  There is what the two people in the relationship find to be the "true" way for them.  The key, of course, is for those two people to meet and develop a relationship.  Yes, the Goreans have a series of book that apparently more clearly defines what everyone is.  But when real people are involved, you step out of the book and into reality.  The very idea that everyone else is simply playing a "game" is ludicrous.  Relationships that we read about in books (ALL FICTIONAL BOOKS) are rarely close to reality.  It doesn't matter whether it is the typical romance novel where love conquers all, or science fiction.  The people in the relationship define their roles in the way that works for them. 

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Everyone always has a choice.  Do young people discover a curiousity and yearning and perhaps jump into this type of relationship far too quickly, only to find out that the reality falls far short of the fantasy?  Of course they do.  The problem only worsens when those poor inexperienced people come to these boards looking for advice and to learn more to be told they made a decision and now need to "suck it up" and deal with it.  Certainly sometimes a person will find out that they might define themselves differently than they originally planned, but never have they REALLY surrendered their choices.  The danger of "damage or death" comes from telling them that they have.  The danger is in trying to tell people that there is only one "true" way of doing things.  Of course you are free to hold people to YOUR definition of what the definitions are, but it doesn't make your definition right.  It only makes it right for you.  There are more than a few couples on here who identify themselves as being in M/s relationships that probably don't meet your "standard."  It doesn't make their relationship any less M/s, because it works for them.

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Advising those people in a way that keeps them out of harm's way is not accomplished by telling them they defined themselves incorrectly.  It is accomplished with reminding them that regardless of how they identify, they are human beings with thoughts, feelings and hopefully some common sense and that just because they identify a certain way does NOT necessitate their surrender of any of those things.  Yet far too often that is exactly what so many inexperienced "slaves" are told.  They do not need to feel happy or fufilled.  "Master" is deciding their fate now and their only job is to "obey."  Again, they serve BECAUSE it makes them happy, BECAUSE it makes them fufilled.  They are happy when they make their master happy and fufilled, yes, but it is still done because that is what makes them happy.  No one enters into a consensual slavery dynamic because it will make "master" happy.  It is because making "master" happy is what makes them happy.  That is why slaves CHOOSE their masters.  If serving just anyone with total disregard for their own happiness was actually the way it worked....all those fools who contact women with the "on your knees bitch, I am now your master" emails would have more slaves they could handle because all of the slaves would instantly obey.  Those that kid themselves into thinking slaves serve just for the sake of serving are just fooling themselves.

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Just because someone says they love you doesn't mean he's a good person and not a selfish bastard.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

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ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Face it. Most people are not cut out to be a slave or to Master a slave. This is what Doms and subs are for. To go there when they want to then come back when it is no longer fun to play the game/the lifestyle/whatever you want to call what it is that they do. Too many people take on titles because it sounds good rather than because they have a clue what they do. Yes, it bugs those who do. I call them as I have seen them in practice. Yes, I have much higher standards than most. No, I don't cut people slack when it comes to being what they claim to be. And I really don't care if I insult or hurt someone's feelings if it keeps them out of much worse trouble and danger. It is better they be pissed at me than damaged or dead.

Be well.....

Malkinius

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Which brings into play the ridiculous concept that there is "one, true, accepted" way of being any of those titles.  There isn't.  There is what the two people in the relationship find to be the "true" way for them.  The key, of course, is for those two people to meet and develop a relationship.  Yes, the Goreans have a series of book that apparently more clearly defines what everyone is.  But when real people are involved, you step out of the book and into reality.  The very idea that everyone else is simply playing a "game" is ludicrous.  Relationships that we read about in books (ALL FICTIONAL BOOKS) are rarely close to reality.  It doesn't matter whether it is the typical romance novel where love conquers all, or science fiction.  The people in the relationship define their roles in the way that works for them. 

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
In the Gorean culture it is not ridiculous, and I never saw Malkinius say that there was only one true way. He made a very good and valid statement. Some people are not cut out to be owners or slaves. Just like some are not cut out to be parents or teachers. Just like some are not cut out to be pet owners, or have animals. Do you see that none of this says there is a one true way, just that there are good and bad. Your comments of "real people" and such, is being inflammatory in a good discussion. Malkinius states the same as you "people in the relationship define their roles in the way that works for them." except he uses terminology that makes it more easily understood.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
As a Gorean, Malkinius used terminology that anyone that understood the Gorean Morality, would also understand. It is easy to see though how it could cause the perception you are getting. Dominant and submissive are adjetives in the Gorean culture, and not nouns. Malkinius tried to use those words, to draw a distinction between those that do the TPE 24/7, and those that reserve it for just play time. It appears he was doing nothing more and nothing less.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You seem to have gotten caught up on the terminology that Malkinius used, and missed the excellent point her was making. Maybe I can make it a little more simply.

People should know themselves, and be what they are capable of being. To try and make yourself something beyond your means and nature, will lead to frustration and unhappiness.

Live well,
Orion

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

While it may be admirable for you to jumpt to his defense, there isn't a lot of misinterpretation to the general public about what he was saying. 

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He has consistently implied that those of us who don't follow the rules as he does are "playing." 

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It was insulting then, it is insulting now, and it will continue to be insulting regardless of how you try to spin it. 

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Further, the idea that he is that way to protect someone from harm or death?  Because why?  Someone who finds out they aren't cut out to be a slave will be physically injured or killed by some master?  It makes no sense, and neither he or you has bothered to provide an example of how this would be.

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Please tell me where above I called the Gorean culture ridiculous. 

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You quote Malkinius above, yet he clearly stated that most of "us" are "playing." 

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The interpretation is that while we define our roles within our relationship, from HIS perspective, there is only one true way, and "our" definations are "just fancy titles" we picked up somewhere. 

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It's insulting to the men on this site that I would call wonderful masters, but don't subscribe to his belief.  Regardless, I never called your way of "being" ridiculous.  I said that saying there is only "one, true, way" is ridiculous. 

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
As a Gorean, Malkinius used terminology that anyone that understood the Gorean Morality, would also understand. It is easy to see though how it could cause the perception you are getting. Dominant and submissive are adjetives in the Gorean culture, and not nouns. Malkinius tried to use those words, to draw a distinction between those that do the TPE 24/7, and those that reserve it for just play time. It appears he was doing nothing more and nothing less.

I won't pretend I "understand" the Gorean Morality, nor will I pretend I have a desire to (If I want to learn about it I will ask my questions to someone whose answers I would respect).  This post is not in the Gorean forum, and if it were I would never have seen it, nor posted to the thread.  Since the Gorean Culture is something you learned at a later point in life, you learned the ability to communicate effectively with the rest of the world first. 

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Again you are defending his language when he was indeed quite clear.  Those who are able to laugh, communicate and discuss in a different way than he, or you, feels is appropriate for an M/s relationship is just playing.  To imply that peppermint or breathasone don't have the proper M/s relationship is presumptious, pompous and ignorant. 

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What they have may not meet his or your definitions, but you aren't in THEIR relationship, so it doesn't matter.  What I HAVE found about many Goreans and what I WILL say about Goreans is that this "holier than thou" attitude is what tends to alienate you from the general community, and if, as you all claim, your beliefs are based on morals and ethics, then you would realize that such an attitude does not garner respect and certainly never appears dignified.  IronBear was very active in the Gorean way of life for a long time and never posts on this board being demeaning or undignified in any way, and the respect that others show to him comes from that.  So when you or others go on and on about the Gorean "whatever" with such pompous, presumptious, undignified responses, do you really not understand why people react the way they do?

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You seem to have gotten caught up on the terminology that Malkinius used, and missed the excellent point her was making. Maybe I can make it a little more simply.

People should know themselves, and be what they are capable of being. To try and make yourself something beyond your means and nature, will lead to frustration and unhappiness.

Live well,
Orion

First of all, I didn't miss any point Malkinius was making.  I disagreed with what he said and clearly stated why.

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As for people never looking to be beyond their means or nature?  Get a grip.

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Everyday, people strive to achieve everything they can to make their lives better, to become something people tell them they can't.  Have you noticed, we have our first multi-racial president?  I'm sure growing up, many told him that was beyond his "means and nature."  People go above and beyond educating themselves.  If you think they are now frustrated and unhappy, I can't help you.  In fact at the end, it doesn't matter what I say to you, you won't listen and it doesn't matter anyway.  You will never change my opinion of what Malkinius said, and quite frankly, I'm very capable of understanding what he said without your "assistance." 

I didn't like what he said, and you don't like what I said.  I'm grown up enough to deal with that as a difference of opinion.  Are you? 

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ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Face it. Most people are not cut out to be a slave or to Master a slave. This is what Doms and subs are for.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Which brings into play the ridiculous concept that there is "one, true, accepted" way of being any of those titles.  There isn't.