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Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/22/2009 9:50:45 AM   
GreedyTop


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Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_france_sarkozy_burqa


Is it debasement if the people involved are ok with it, or is it forced submission?

Considering that (as the article states) France has the largest Muslim population in Western Europe, has Sarkozy stepped in shit? 

Personally, I'm kinda torn on the issue... but then I'm not Muslim, and have never lived as a Muslim, sooooooooooo....  I obviously cant speak for the Muslims..


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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/22/2009 9:55:48 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Sarkozy is wrong on this issue. If Muslim women wish to wear whatever, they should be allowed to.

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/22/2009 10:13:57 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Sarkozy is wrong on this issue. If Muslim women wish to wear whatever, they should be allowed to.


Except when getting a photo ID

Butch


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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/22/2009 12:04:09 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		And once again, Sarko indulges in some brazen populist posturing to rile up the crowds in a fake show of  bullshit indignation.

Women are allowed to wear what they like in France. There are laws there to protect their rights.

And exactly how he proposes to enforce his ridiculous idea remains shrouded in mystery. Burka-like.



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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/22/2009 1:32:14 PM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Sarkozy is a reasonably capable interpreter and manipulator of popular opinion towards one end - his democratic popularity with the majority. Here he has interpreted that a majority think of Islam as repressive and humiliating to women and feel the burka is the expression of that. This is very likely also part of a follow on from Obama's comments regarding women in Islam in Cairo, for Sarkozy knows how popular Obama is and regularly seeks association in this way, only lacking the poise and eloquence of Obama he's made a right dog's dinner of it. 

Thank goodness for Angela eh? Sarkozy, Brown and Berlusconi hardly show the west in a good light otherwise.

E

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/22/2009 7:28:21 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		       I see a freedom of speech/expression issue here.  I'm aware that the French laws on this are very different from what I'm accustomed to (and prepared to get violent over) as an American, but I don't think this is something a free-society can legitimately ban altogether. 

     From a security standpoint, there may very well be a price to be paid for choosing to make such a statement.

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/22/2009 8:37:06 PM   
LotusSong


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Status: offline 		If a woman goes to a Muslim country.. the authorities are not shy in telling them how to dress no matter what their culture is.

"Some Muslim leaders interpret the Quran to require that women wear a headscarf, niqab or burqa in the presence of a man who is not their husband or close relative."

WHY? It's certainly not because they cherish them and want them all to themselves..not when a woman is killed by family because she was raped. The men must be terribly weak willed and mindless not to be able to control a THEMSELVES.

I think that Sarkozy said what needed to be said.


< Message edited by LotusSong -- 6/22/2009 8:40:12 PM >

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/22/2009 9:55:02 PM   
MarsBonfire


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Status: offline 		I stand for the right of any woman to wear whatever revealing clothing they like... no matter if it's silk, satin, leather, or latex! (Especially if they are hawt!)

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/22/2009 10:03:09 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Fast Reply -

I see no purpose to such a ban and think it would be a waste of time and money to try and enforce.

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/22/2009 11:26:35 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

I stand for the right of any woman to wear whatever revealing clothing they like... no matter if it's silk, satin, leather, or latex! (Especially if they are hawt!)

I am with you but they too...could cover what they want. I know I would.

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/23/2009 12:56:58 AM   
JonnieBoy


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Status: offline 		No, he hasn't stepped in any shit, the French do things their way within their laws and therefore I would struggle to understand anyone wanting to live there that wasn't prepared to live within it's policies of cultural preservation.

Since there is no religious prejudice involved the only real issues are the debasement issue and as to how "free" the will of the average wearer of these garments may be, my opinion is : not very ... time will of course tell if the law goes through.

For the last 5 years it's been banned in schools, (along with Jewish and Christian symbols) it was a matter of time before this next step was tabled.

The identity parade in the case of the first culprit to break the rules should be interesting though !

Pirate

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/23/2009 1:12:12 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		I wonder, if the French police enforced such a law - would Muslim women attached to their burkas meet up secretly behind closed doors to wear them...........

On the other hand, what happens in France if a man walks down the street in a skirt and heels? The Human Rights Act guarantees freedom of expression, so presumably his right to make a fool of himself must be upheld - albeit that same Act is powerless to prevent arrest where someone in many countries wears apparel associated with the nazis, and even our transvestite friend would be arrested should his behaviour provoke offence. It is therefore established that freedom of expression is limited by public offence.

From that it is clear that if the public find the wearing of burkas offensive, then anyone wearing one may be arrested; which all seems to be a bit silly really, and very dangerous. Personally I find the appearance of some Jewish men offensive - the clothes, the hat, the ringlets and beard thing, after all; should they be arrested?

What might be good if Sarkozy's idea gains currency and is enforced is if the Muslim guys take to wearing a burka too, in solidarity with their women. I somehow dont see that happening however..........

Aint multi-culturalism grand? Compromises that please no one

E

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/23/2009 1:37:36 AM   
JonnieBoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
The Human Rights Act guarantees freedom of expression, so presumably his right to make a fool of himself must be upheld.


Leave Gordon Brown out of this !

Pirate

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/23/2009 7:25:33 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Will Nuns be required to remove their habits in public as well?

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/23/2009 7:43:37 AM   
JonnieBoy


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Status: offline 		On this occasion the French are  not making the religious issue, so, no.

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/23/2009 8:59:09 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

On this occasion the French are  not making the religious issue, so, no.



Have you considered that perhaps some of these women who choose to wear these clothes are French as well as Muslim? That's what Sarkozy and the hysterical right are forgetting.

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/23/2009 9:57:01 AM   
JonnieBoy


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Status: offline 		Yes,I have considered that some of the subjugated are French. Theres no perhaps about it.

Sarkozy is not being hysterical, he's being French, I doubt the vast majority of the French will see this as hysterical either.

By the way, I have qualified my view in pointing out that this is not being tabled as a religious issue, so why ask me about Muslims?? That aspect of your question belongs elsewhere.

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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/23/2009 10:17:16 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

Sarkozy is not being hysterical, he's being French, I doubt the vast majority of the French will see this as hysterical either.



I'm French and I assure you that Sarkozy is a rabble-rouser. That's how he got elected. He is also a hysterical politician with a little man complex.

France has a long history of intolerance with regards to its 'minorities'. It's very easy to appeal to a certain segment of the French population with implications that its Muslim citizens are not really French and that they are refusing to 'integrate'. Ever heard of the "Français moyen"? It's not pretty.

Sarkozy is, in fact, deliberately raising this as a religious issue - he is attempting to isolate people.

He is, in short, being a complete fuckwit.


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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/23/2009 10:20:43 AM   
GreedyTop


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I'd love to hear from HisAnnabelle on this...


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RE: Has Sarkozy stepped in it? - 6/23/2009 10:26:11 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		A lot of young French Muslims are rediscovering their roots. There isn't a small amount of rebellion against French society in this. It's their way to say "fuck you!".

I understand where they're coming from (and as you know, "burka on the beach" isn't my idea of fun - in fact, I hate the fucking things). At the same time, it's not by making this kind of moronic comment that Sarkozy is going to rebuild a sense of unity over there. Au contraire, and that's precisely why he said what he said.



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