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RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 12:52:17 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
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quote:

ORIGINAL: justme1980

Ok, let me see if I can say this right:

If a Dom requires a sub to beg, is he saying that it is ok for the sub to put their needs before his?

????? He MIGHT be but there could be a whole lot of reasons for it:
1. He is telling her that in order to get her needs (wants, desires, etc.) met, she is going to have to beg for him to do so thus establishing the concept that she wants but cannot get on her own without asking him first. This helps to firm up the idea that he is in control of her wants/needs/desires because as has been noted, he can always say "No", no matter how hard she begs.
2. He might be a dominant sadist whose first priority is that establishment within her of his control of the satisfaction of her wants/needs./desires. Once that is established and emphasized with each time she begs, there is the enjoyment for the sadist of watching his submissive...especially if she has a difficult time of doing so...beg for something. Sometimes, the most fun is derived when it is the most basic thing possible that she has to beg for.
3. He might be a sadistic dominant for whom the pleasure of her pain/humiliation/befuddlement of having to beg is immense and only heightened by the control yielded by her asking for what she wants/needs/desires.
Note that in these examples, control is held by the dominant unless of course, he is one who has fooled himself into thinking he has control but who, in always granting her request, has ceded that control

quote:

Does it send a message that says "I will allow you to beg, manipulate, take my power, and otherwise control a certain situation "

Thoughts, comments?

Manipulation and taking of power only happen when the submissive has learned that some dominants are laboring under the delusion that it is the doing of the act itself that is important. For those dominants who understand that begging isn't always just a cute act or playful but a way to participate in power exchange IF recognized by both parties as such, there is no manipulation occurring UNLESS the submissive is using her knowledge of even this type of dominant to achieve her goals. At that point, I suppose it could be argued that she is being manipulative but I would think that the bigger argument could be made for her not being submissive but either pandering to what she knows of his ways or surreptitiously, and full awareness, usurping of his control.

(in reply to justme1980)

Post #: 41

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 12:58:08 PM

ishyB

Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

quote:

ORIGINAL: justme1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

I had it best put to me like this.

A s-types Needs Come FIRST
A D-Types Needs Come SECOND
A D-Types Wants Come THIRD
A s-types Wants Come LAST

Begging has nothing to do with needs, if you have to beg for your needs then you should reevaluate your current position in life.

Steel

So begging is one of the role play exercises, not something one would expect to have happen in real life?

You missed the Point.

NEEDS are things that are MANDATORY for survival. If you have to BEG for a Need then you may want to reevaluate your current position. If you have to Beg for Food Water and Shelter then Yes there is a Problem either you are on extremely hard times or you would rather do that than earn it.

Begging is not Role Play, That would imply that you the begger are only acting like you want something. Begging can be a Humbleing tool used to take the pride and expectations out of a girl and to get her to understand that just because she wants something does not mean she will get it, however if she has to beg for something she NEEDS and I mean NEEDS. Then I am failing in my position of taking complete responsibility for her life.

Greetings Master,

the way I am kept the hierarchy isn't the same as in your relationship.

For me its:

Master and Mistress' need come first
Master and Mistress' wants come second
My needs come third
My wants come last

I do not mean that their wants come before my needs in the sense that my needs will completely be ignored. But when I am hungry for instance, and Master or Mistress want something done at that moment... I'll simple have to wait and fulfill what they want before I can fulfill my need and get food.

I'm also made to beg for a number of needs on a fairly regular basis. Not made in the sense of being told to, but 'made' in the sense that the only way to get my needs to be fulfilled is by begging for them.
For instance, I am not allowed to use the bathroom without permission, which means that when I have to go, I have to ask.
When I do not get an immediate affirmative responds (like usually does happens) my only option is to either hold it till I do get permission, or to beg for it.

The same happens with food or water. As a general rule, I do not eat until both Master and Mistress have eaten and I cannot eat or drink without permission. Usually either one of them will tell me to eat when they are finished, but sometimes they don't, either because they forget or don't want to tell me. Again my only option is to beg.

I do not see any of this as a reason to re-evaluate the situation, seeing that I did that evaluation prior to begging his collar. I always knew that it was going to be like this.
Also, the reason why I'm kept like this doesn't have anything to do with them neglecting me, it's more a reminder of my status in their household then it is anything else.

I wish you well,

ishy

_____________________________

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(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 42

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 12:59:01 PM

sirsholly

Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline

quote:

He is telling her that in order to get her needs (wants, desires, etc.) met, she is going to have to beg for him to do so thus establishing the concept that she wants but cannot get on her own without asking him first.

i strongly (but respectfully) disagree with something here, CD, and i think it was touched on earlier in this thread.

I believe begging to get her needs met is wrong. Wants and desires? Hey...if it is your kink, go for it and bring home a tee shirt. But needs should be a given.

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(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 43

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:01:49 PM

justme1980

Posts: 169
Joined: 6/20/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: justme1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: greenearth21

Maybe if you rephrase your question, it won't seem so odd. Are you curious to know why a Dom would enjoy "The art of begging" or what enjoyment do they get from watching their s type beg?

In a play type situation I can see its value however in real life, some may view it in a negative light

a negative light... so.... you are more worried about how you would be viewed than about him and what he wants.

My response was to sweetsubs situation, where she initiated the begging, in her case, her Master simply said no
I did the same thing and was called on the carpet for it, in both cases Neither of our Master's had requested us to beg so it was not about him or his wants

< Message edited by justme1980 -- 6/30/2009 1:05:16 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 44

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:03:21 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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its a risk we take when we want something. there is more to the art than just a pretty beg, you also have to take into consideration his mood, where you are, what may be happening around you, ect.

_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to justme1980)

Post #: 45

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:03:46 PM

justme1980

Posts: 169
Joined: 6/20/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

He is telling her that in order to get her needs (wants, desires, etc.) met, she is going to have to beg for him to do so thus establishing the concept that she wants but cannot get on her own without asking him first.
i strongly (but respectfully) disagree with something here, CD, and i think it was touched on earlier in this thread.

I believe begging to get her needs met is wrong. Wants and desires? Hey...if it is your kink, go for it and bring home a tee shirt. But needs should be a given.

Yes, I should have ommited "needs" these are purely wants

(in reply to sirsholly)

Post #: 46

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:04:38 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

He is telling her that in order to get her needs (wants, desires, etc.) met, she is going to have to beg for him to do so thus establishing the concept that she wants but cannot get on her own without asking him first.
i strongly (but respectfully) disagree with something here, CD, and i think it was touched on earlier in this thread.

I believe begging to get her needs met is wrong. Wants and desires? Hey...if it is your kink, go for it and bring home a tee shirt. But needs should be a given.

now you gone and done it, holly!

lol

seriously though, what some may consider a need, others may consider a want, depending on the situation and the dynamics of the relationship.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to sirsholly)

Post #: 47

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:08:41 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: justme1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: justme1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: greenearth21

Maybe if you rephrase your question, it won't seem so odd. Are you curious to know why a Dom would enjoy "The art of begging" or what enjoyment do they get from watching their s type beg?

In a play type situation I can see its value however in real life, some may view it in a negative light

a negative light... so.... you are more worried about how you would be viewed than about him and what he wants.

My response was to sweetsubs situation, where she initiated the begging, in her case, her Master simply said no
I did the same thing and was called on the carpet for it, in both cases Neither of our Master's had requested us to beg so it was not about him or his wants

perspective, sweetheart.

if i beg for, say, something i want to buy, and he says no... then its no. its not a need. shoot, he may plan on buying it for me as a gift after hearing that i want it, or plans on denying it to me at all. all i know is, the answer is no.

to keep on begging for things, and he keeps saying no, then youneed to look at what you are begging for.

if a man is upset that you beg for something, you either a) caught him in a bad mood, b) have asked for it before and were denied, or c) he doesnt think you deserve/need it. may want to reflect back a bit on that one, ie: did you upset him recently?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to justme1980)

Post #: 48

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:13:00 PM

angelikaJ

Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

if a man is upset that you beg for something, you either a) caught him in a bad mood, b) have asked for it before and were denied, or c) he doesnt think you deserve/need it. may want to reflect back a bit on that one, ie: did you upset him recently?

Or maybe her Dom does not like begging.

_____________________________

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(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 49

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:13:16 PM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

just curious, but am i the only one here who struggles with the selfish side to begging?

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 50

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:19:59 PM

SteelofUtah

Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

Greetings Master,

the way I am kept the hierarchy isn't the same as in your relationship.

For me its:

Master and Mistress' need come first
Master and Mistress' wants come second
My needs come third
My wants come last

I do not mean that their wants come before my needs in the sense that my needs will completely be ignored. But when I am hungry for instance, and Master or Mistress want something done at that moment... I'll simple have to wait and fulfill what they want before I can fulfill my need and get food.

I'm also made to beg for a number of needs on a fairly regular basis. Not made in the sense of being told to, but 'made' in the sense that the only way to get my needs to be fulfilled is by begging for them.
For instance, I am not allowed to use the bathroom without permission, which means that when I have to go, I have to ask.
When I do not get an immediate affirmative responds (like usually does happens) my only option is to either hold it till I do get permission, or to beg for it.

The same happens with food or water. As a general rule, I do not eat until both Master and Mistress have eaten and I cannot eat or drink without permission. Usually either one of them will tell me to eat when they are finished, but sometimes they don't, either because they forget or don't want to tell me. Again my only option is to beg.

I do not see any of this as a reason to re-evaluate the situation, seeing that I did that evaluation prior to begging his collar. I always knew that it was going to be like this.
Also, the reason why I'm kept like this doesn't have anything to do with them neglecting me, it's more a reminder of my status in their household then it is anything else.

I wish you well,

ishy

Well ishyB,

I can see your point, and in your dynamic there are multiple differences than in mine.

I know that my Hierarchy of structure in my home is not a constant for everyone however I also live a different lifestyle than you do, although I do respect the Gorean lifestyle the way you are currently living it is something that never appealed to me.

Unless you are in Diapers and unable to control your bodily functions I don't want or need to know when you use the bathroom. I expect my slaves to keep up with their daily necessities without having to bother me with them. There is a level of management I wish to install but micromanagement to the degree of when you can and cannot eat and when you can and cannot use the bathroom is not one I would care for.

To me I see keeping the slaves needs as the first priority as without them she is less equipt to see to my needs. If she is hungry and her eyes are floating in Pee because I have yet to notice that she is in need of something then what good is she at meeting my needs?

I do not require her to ask me to eat or use the restroom but she does need to ask for sweets of icecream as those are treats and I do not require her to ask me to use the restroom of pick out her clothes for her or anything like that because it takes up valuable time in my day. Sure answering the question of if she can go pee only takes a few seconds but if I am in the middle of a report or a web site design her asking me to pee is going to interupt my train of thought and attention to what I am doing.

If she cannot feed herself and I have to approve her food intake then that means that I have someone watching me eat or around NOT eating while I am eating and that is a pet peve of mine.

I see NEEDS as just that NEEDS. I do not see them as Approvable Options. I do know there are people who see many WANTS as NEEDS and so I am sure they would think I was a Bastard because I am quick to question why one deserves a WANT. and I will ask and why do you think you deserve that. If they can tell me then they can usually have it but if they have no answer it is better to not even ask.

I think the main issue is in this is that we live two very different concepts of control and order within a power dynamic. Neither is right or wrong just I would wilt in your power display and you would wilt in mine.

Steel

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(in reply to ishyB)

Post #: 51

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:27:57 PM

sweetsub1957

Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

UNLESS the submissive is using her knowledge of even this type of dominant to achieve her goals. At that point, I suppose it could be argued that she is being manipulative but I would think that the bigger argument could be made for her not being submissive but either pandering to what she knows of his ways or surreptitiously, and full awareness, usurping of his control.

In other words, wouldn't that then be Topping from the bottom?

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Post #: 52

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:33:46 PM

janiebelle

Posts: 332
Joined: 4/29/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

nope.
if he says "beg me" he is exerting control by having you follow his command.
The decision he reaches is his...unless he is a total doof that is so easy influenced by an obnoxious submissive.

good one.
I know that the supply of obnoxious subs is a healthy one. Probably one for every total doof out there.
j

(in reply to sirsholly)

Post #: 53

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:35:36 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

if a man is upset that you beg for something, you either a) caught him in a bad mood, b) have asked for it before and were denied, or c) he doesnt think you deserve/need it. may want to reflect back a bit on that one, ie: did you upset him recently?

Or maybe her Dom does not like begging.

you may be right. she never said what she begs for... or even IF she begs. i think holly asked her that. i for one would like to see the respoce from the OP.

justme... what is it you beg for?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 54

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:35:39 PM

justme1980

Posts: 169
Joined: 6/20/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: justme1980

Ok, let me see if I can say this right:

If a Dom requires a sub to beg, is he saying that it is ok for the sub to put their needs before his?

Does it send a message that says "I will allow you to beg, manipulate, take my power, and otherwise control a certain situation "

Thoughts, comments?

im sorry, but, i do find your question sort of.. funny.

please, explain to me how, in the course of beggig him for something, and he/she still has the ability to say no, its taking away their power?

just because you beg doesnt mean you will get.

well glad to amuse :) No I realize that I may not get what I want. But if I am successful, using begging as a form of manipulation, have I taken his power and used it for my own gain?

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 55

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:37:40 PM

SteelofUtah

Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline

Manipulation and Begging

TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.

One implies that you know if you do it long enough you will get your will done even if it isn't his will.

The other implies that you getting what you want falls on his whim regardless of how badly you beg.

Steel

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Post #: 56

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:37:41 PM

justme1980

Posts: 169
Joined: 6/20/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

if a man is upset that you beg for something, you either a) caught him in a bad mood, b) have asked for it before and were denied, or c) he doesnt think you deserve/need it. may want to reflect back a bit on that one, ie: did you upset him recently?

Or maybe her Dom does not like begging.

you may be right. she never said what she begs for... or even IF she begs. i think holly asked her that. i for one would like to see the respoce from the OP.

justme... what is it you beg for?

a hypothetical item, say something that does not involve a Master's wants or desires, something just for my pleasure

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 57

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:40:32 PM

justme1980

Posts: 169
Joined: 6/20/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

UNLESS the submissive is using her knowledge of even this type of dominant to achieve her goals. At that point, I suppose it could be argued that she is being manipulative but I would think that the bigger argument could be made for her not being submissive but either pandering to what she knows of his ways or surreptitiously, and full awareness, usurping of his control.

In other words, wouldn't that then be Topping from the bottom?

I was wondering that same thing

(in reply to sweetsub1957)

Post #: 58

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:40:33 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: justme1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

if a man is upset that you beg for something, you either a) caught him in a bad mood, b) have asked for it before and were denied, or c) he doesnt think you deserve/need it. may want to reflect back a bit on that one, ie: did you upset him recently?

Or maybe her Dom does not like begging.

you may be right. she never said what she begs for... or even IF she begs. i think holly asked her that. i for one would like to see the respoce from the OP.

justme... what is it you beg for?

a hypothetical item, say something that does not involve a Master's wants or desires, something just for my pleasure

then i would say a Man who knows you well enough will know when you are trying to manipulate him, even through begging, and at that time make the determination if he will allow it to continue or not. if he doesnt care, he may just give in to stop you from begging.

some men insist on begging
some like begging, but its not required for all things
some like it when they like it.. and only then
some dont like it at all

you have to decide which category he falls into

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to justme1980)

Post #: 59

RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:42:48 PM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

Master and Mistress' need come first
Master and Mistress' wants come second
My needs come third
My wants come last

hi ishy.

the need/want hierarchy is the same in this household...Daddy's needs come first, his desires come second, my needs come third, my desires are considered last.

however the difference is that i do not need to ask permission to do things such as eat, drink, sleep or use the restroom, at least not in a regular basis. in the beginning it was like that, for the purposes of training and conditioning, but as i have now been a slave for a long time my Master no longer considers those things necessary. which means, i know when taking care of a need such as food or sleep or whatever else would be inappropriate, and when those things cannot be done without first checking with him. for instance if i am very tired and wish to go to bed before my Master, then i must ask permission to do so. but otherwise it is a given that i will go to bed when he does.

it is understood at any time that any need i have may be denied or postponed at my Master's discretion, i never take anything for granted.

(in reply to ishyB)

Post #: 60

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