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RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:50:51 PM   
trappedinamuseum


Posts: 5066
Joined: 8/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

just curious, but am i the only one here who struggles with the selfish side to begging?


It kind of seems that way, yes.

I have the opposite problem.  He will ask me if I want something.  Usually I nod yes.  He will then tell me to beg for it.  My first reaction is to reply, "Well, I don't want it that much.  Give it to me, or don't".

I don't know if it is a hubris issue, or if I just have issue in general with begging.  I don't have any trouble begging for release, but begging to serve him?  That's another story.

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RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:50:57 PM   
oceanwinds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

just curious, but am i the only one here who struggles with the selfish side to begging?


Hello daddysprop
This is an area that i struggle with as well. It was a relief when Sir told me he does not like begging. Though not in a similair relationship structure you are in, when i am at Sir's house, i would find it selfish on my part to beg for a want or desire. I can request and leave it as that a request. Though not married in a D/s or M/s, i would not consider begging or manipulating late hubby for something i wanted or desired either.

Blessings
oceanwinds

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RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:51:21 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

just curious, but am i the only one here who struggles with the selfish side to begging?


im not sure what you mean. can you expand, please?

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:58:23 PM   
ishyB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Well ishyB,

I can see your point, and in your dynamic there are multiple differences than in mine.

I know that my Hierarchy of structure in my home is not a constant for everyone however I also live a different lifestyle than you do, although I do respect the Gorean lifestyle the way you are currently living it is something that never appealed to me.

Unless you are in Diapers and unable to control your bodily functions I don't want or need to know when you use the bathroom. I expect my slaves to keep up with their daily necessities without having to bother me with them. There is a level of management I wish to install but micromanagement to the degree of when you can and cannot eat and when you can and cannot use the bathroom is not one I would care for.

To me I see keeping the slaves needs as the first priority as without them she is less equipt to see to my needs. If she is hungry and her eyes are floating in Pee because I have yet to notice that she is in need of something then what good is she at meeting my needs?

I do not require her to ask me to eat or use the restroom but she does need to ask for sweets of icecream as those are treats and I do not require her to ask me to use the restroom of pick out her clothes for her or anything like that because it takes up valuable time in my day. Sure answering the question of if she can go pee only takes a few seconds but if I am in the middle of a report or a web site design her asking me to pee is going to interupt my train of thought and attention to what I am doing.

If she cannot feed herself and I have to approve her food intake then that means that I have someone watching me eat or around NOT eating while I am eating and that is a pet peve of mine.

I see NEEDS as just that NEEDS. I do not see them as Approvable Options. I do know there are people who see many WANTS as NEEDS and so I am sure they would think I was a Bastard because I am quick to question why one deserves a WANT. and I will ask and why do you think you deserve that. If they can tell me then they can usually have it but if they have no answer it is better to not even ask.

I think the main issue is in this is that we live two very different concepts of control and order within a power dynamic. Neither is right or wrong just I would wilt in your power display and you would wilt in mine.

Steel


Greetings Master,

I know your lifestyle is different from the Gorean one, I only wanted to also offer a different perspective.

No matter how contrairy this may seem to my prior post, Master and Mistress actually do not like micromanaging either.

They do not keep me this strict because they enjoy doing so, but because I am still new at serving on a 24/7 basis.
They consider it very important in the beginning of our relationship to firmly instill in me that I am not entitled to anything, not even the immediate satisfaction of my own need.
Therefore until further notice, I'm not really allowed to do anything at all without begging permission just to get me used to the fact that I'm indeed ALLOWED to fulfill my needs instead instead of just being entitled to them. It's a matter of creating a mindset instead of a matter of an enjoyment on their part for micromanaging.

The situation like you describe of not wanting to be bothered while working is a very understandable one, and in my case, it would just mean that I'd have to wait to even ask. As you said: a slave is there to make life easier, not more complicated. Another difference in your mind set versus the way I am kept is that they would never ask me why I think I deserve anything when I asked for them.
The mindset I am taught to focus around is that I do not deserve ANYTHING and instead, everything I do receive from them is granted/given.

I wish you well,

ishy

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RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 1:59:35 PM   
justme1980


Posts: 169
Joined: 6/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

Greetings Master,

the way I am kept the hierarchy isn't the same as in your relationship.

For me its:

Master and Mistress' need come first
Master and Mistress' wants come second
My needs come third
My wants come last

I do not mean that their wants come before my needs in the sense that my needs will completely be ignored. But when I am hungry for instance, and Master or Mistress want something done at that moment... I'll simple have to wait and fulfill what they want before I can fulfill my need and get food.

I'm also made to beg for a number of needs on a fairly regular basis. Not made in the sense of being told to, but 'made' in the sense that the only way to get my needs to be fulfilled is by begging for them.
For instance, I am not allowed to use the bathroom without permission, which means that when I have to go, I have to ask.
When I do not get an immediate affirmative responds (like usually does happens) my only option is to either hold it till I do get permission, or to beg for it.

The same happens with food or water. As a general rule, I do not eat until both Master and Mistress have eaten and I cannot eat or drink without permission. Usually either one of them will tell me to eat when they are finished, but sometimes they don't, either because they forget or don't want to tell me. Again my only option is to beg.

I do not see any of this as a reason to re-evaluate the situation, seeing that I did that evaluation prior to begging his collar. I always knew that it was going to be like this.
Also, the reason why I'm kept like this doesn't have anything to do with them neglecting me, it's more a reminder of my status in their household then it is anything else.

I wish you well,

ishy


Well ishyB,

I can see your point, and in your dynamic there are multiple differences than in mine.

I know that my Hierarchy of structure in my home is not a constant for everyone however I also live a different lifestyle than you do, although I do respect the Gorean lifestyle the way you are currently living it is something that never appealed to me.

Unless you are in Diapers and unable to control your bodily functions I don't want or need to know when you use the bathroom. I expect my slaves to keep up with their daily necessities without having to bother me with them. There is a level of management I wish to install but micromanagement to the degree of when you can and cannot eat and when you can and cannot use the bathroom is not one I would care for.

To me I see keeping the slaves needs as the first priority as without them she is less equipt to see to my needs. If she is hungry and her eyes are floating in Pee because I have yet to notice that she is in need of something then what good is she at meeting my needs?

I do not require her to ask me to eat or use the restroom but she does need to ask for sweets of icecream as those are treats and I do not require her to ask me to use the restroom of pick out her clothes for her or anything like that because it takes up valuable time in my day. Sure answering the question of if she can go pee only takes a few seconds but if I am in the middle of a report or a web site design her asking me to pee is going to interupt my train of thought and attention to what I am doing.

If she cannot feed herself and I have to approve her food intake then that means that I have someone watching me eat or around NOT eating while I am eating and that is a pet peve of mine.

I see NEEDS as just that NEEDS. I do not see them as Approvable Options. I do know there are people who see many WANTS as NEEDS and so I am sure they would think I was a Bastard because I am quick to question why one deserves a WANT. and I will ask and why do you think you deserve that. If they can tell me then they can usually have it but if they have no answer it is better to not even ask.

I think the main issue is in this is that we live two very different concepts of control and order within a power dynamic. Neither is right or wrong just I would wilt in your power display and you would wilt in mine.

Steel


The girl may be gorean so I don't know if that is one of their ideas. But if it works for her, more power to her

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
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RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 2:01:44 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: trappedinamuseum


It kind of seems that way, yes.

I have the opposite problem.  He will ask me if I want something.  Usually I nod yes.  He will then tell me to beg for it.  My first reaction is to reply, "Well, I don't want it that much.  Give it to me, or don't".




yes! i can relate to this as well...i do not want him to do anything for me or give me anything that he does not desire to give himself. i always think, if this were something he really wanted, then he would have done it already. and since he hasn't, i don't want to be selfish and beg for something just for me. if i could only have what i begged for, i wouldn't have much.



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RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 2:05:42 PM   
justme1980


Posts: 169
Joined: 6/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

just curious, but am i the only one here who struggles with the selfish side to begging?



I do not think you are, seems like there have been a few

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RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 2:06:36 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: trappedinamuseum


It kind of seems that way, yes.

I have the opposite problem.  He will ask me if I want something.  Usually I nod yes.  He will then tell me to beg for it.  My first reaction is to reply, "Well, I don't want it that much.  Give it to me, or don't".




yes! i can relate to this as well...i do not want him to do anything for me or give me anything that he does not desire to give himself. i always think, if this were something he really wanted, then he would have done it already. and since he hasn't, i don't want to be selfish and beg for something just for me. if i could only have what i begged for, i wouldn't have much.





begging can be seen as selfish... from our point of view. ever thought about it from theirs?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 2:17:12 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

just curious, but am i the only one here who struggles with the selfish side to begging?


im not sure what you mean. can you expand, please?


tazzy, it's what i was trying to explain in my earlier post, paraphrased here:

in order to beg and beg sincerely (i.e. not roleplay or simply because you were told to do so), it must be for something that you, the submissive, want/desire. when you beg, you hope that the response from the Dominant will be a positive one...allowing you the thing it is that you desire. so you are focusing on what YOU want, and then hoping that the Dominant will provide it...especially when it's been steadily instilled into your brain by your Master that you are to strive for selflessness, that your life is not about your desires, likes, pleasure, etc.



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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 2:35:48 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		i understand where you are coming from.. and can only give you an example of what some may think from the other side of the slash.

my ex was a man who wanted to be begged.. when he wanted it. i soon was afraid to beg for anything, and felt that when he wanted me to beg, he would simply say so. soon, he stopped commanding me to beg... and we often remained, both, unfullfilled, each waiting for what the other thought we wanted. well.. one day i asked... why did you stop commanding me to beg? his response was "A man loves to hear those sweet words pour from a slave's lips. he needs to feel needed, even sometimes for the smallest of things. your begging calls to my dominance. when that call stopped coming, I felt that you didnt need to feel that side of me anymore."

for me, that was a huge wake up call. its not about getting what you want, or him getting what he wanted. its about the dynamics, the give and take, the need to feel you are wanted, and the desire to show you still need him. its all about communication. even begging can be a form of communication between two people

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 2:57:18 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: justme1980


quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

what the hell...?

How can you turn begging into zapping the Doms power?



If I say " Master I wish to by something" and the Master says "beg me" and I do it and he gives in and says yes, have *I* gotten what *I* wanted Did I take away from him the power of decision?


No, even though you asked and he said yes, ultimately he still made the final choice of allowing you to buy what you wanted....he could have easily said no.


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RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 3:16:35 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
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Status: offline 		Let's see here.  I had to bring the level of a relationship because I discovered I could manipulate him.  I did not manipulate him, but I knew I could and that destroyed it being a more intensive relationship for me.  I knew how to ask and what to ask to effect the answer I wanted.  I did not act upon this knowledge, but it didn't matter.  His will was not stronger than mine.

On the other hand, I have begged, gut wrenchingly begged (usually to NOT have to go through with something) my partner and been denied.  It didn't matter what I appealed to (his logic, emotions, etc), he would not fold.  One thing I am thinking of in particular I begged for weeks to not have to do because I was terrified.  In my mind, it was a need to not do it because I really believed it would harm me at the very least mentally.  In his mind, even if it did do harm in the short term, I would be better for it in the long run. 

Other matters, I have been granted.  It is not that he grants what I beg for, but that I know that he will ultimately decide based on his will and his judgement that changes everything.  He is not bending to me.  I will be doing as he desires whether it is what I wanted or not.

Do I feel selfish for asking in the first place?  Sometimes.  The problem is that if I never ask, then I have cut off communication.  Just because what I am asking for is primarily beneficial to me does not mean that he does not derive any positive consequences in granting it.  Sometimes something as simple as seeing me smile is adequate for him to grant a request.  Other times, I have to show him what is in it for him.  Some things are simply obvious.  If I don't get proper rest, then I am less adequate to the task of caring for him.

Begging is only manipulative at the point which the submissive learns how to work the buttons and chooses to do so.  If I choose to be above such games, begging is never an issue.  If I choose to be of low character and exploit, then shame on me.  I chose, instead, to be honest about it and allow both of us the freedom to find a better fit.  We are dear friends and still very involved in each others' lives.  I guess it is a matter of integrity.

lovingpet   

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RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 7:28:13 PM   
wittybunny


Posts: 12
Joined: 5/19/2009
Status: offline 		Hmm.You know, I never made him beg -yet. Is that because I don't find it pleasurable ??or that I saw he had "begging"in his profile and I am purposely ignoring it because he would find it pleasurable?? Bottom line is, if I don't want to hear it I don't hear it.And that's the way uh huh uh huh I like it.

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RE: The Art of begging - 6/30/2009 7:57:10 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		that has been established earlier, wittybunny. you have to first find out if the dominant wants to be begged.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: The Art of begging - 7/1/2009 2:27:55 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: trappedinamuseum


It kind of seems that way, yes.

I have the opposite problem.  He will ask me if I want something.  Usually I nod yes.  He will then tell me to beg for it.  My first reaction is to reply, "Well, I don't want it that much.  Give it to me, or don't".




yes! i can relate to this as well...i do not want him to do anything for me or give me anything that he does not desire to give himself. i always think, if this were something he really wanted, then he would have done it already. and since he hasn't, i don't want to be selfish and beg for something just for me. if i could only have what i begged for, i wouldn't have much.





That's me aswell...but He is partial to a bit of begging...so usually it starts with suggesting something...so we build up the want for it...think about it, mull it over untill it becomes a more desirable thing and then the suggestion might change into a question and eventually it might be something He wants to be begged for and i want to do the begging for...

I think people just feed of eachother and begging is only ever any good if you both feeding of it... if not then it is just a naff annoying thing to do for both

(in reply to daddysprop247)
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RE: The Art of begging - 7/1/2009 5:34:00 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		I haven't read this whole thread so i am not sure if its been addressed but -- to me begging as nothing to do with the Man who orders it but has everything to do with the mindset when a woman who is slave begs. To me, when i would ask for something and my Master told me to beg for it -- i would completely have to focus because i wasn't just begging for the thing i wanted -- it was an all encompassing concept. I mean yes its really easy to portray begging, but most men who own women are able to see when she is simply going through the motions and when she acknowledges and understands where her begging is coming from and more importantly why. Its not about to me whether she gets it or not, its about the process and mindsets associated with begging. A Man can easily make a decision of yes or no without the begging --- so to me, when a Man who is a Master says beg for it, he is demanding much more than her simply pleading for what she wants, but she is begging from her place, her understanding of her place and her confirmation of what her place and existance in his life is -- slave.

Master -- may i have a glass of water? Beg for it slave. I mean seriously how could you not see that command as more than him simply wanting you to plead for a glass of water? Do people really see this as a need for a Man who is her Master as a concept of validation or NEED from him or FOCUS of him? To me, someone who makes begging to be some type of validation or manipulation of or about the Man, is someone who probably needs to do more begging lol. Sure a Man may enjoy a slave begging but a Man isn't the one who NEEDS a slave to beg. A slave needs to beg.

Also, there is a huge difference between begging and pleading and conjoling and manipulating. The former is a woman who understands she is not in control -- the latter is a woman who believes or is acting as if she believes she is in control either playfully, obtusely or seriously.

When in doubt of whether or not to beg -- go with the begging because one can beg easily by simply saying -- Master May i have a glass of water. Begging isn't about actions its about mindset.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/1/2009 5:36:14 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: The Art of begging - 7/1/2009 5:50:51 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I think most D types who demand begging simply get off on it.

Me? I'm 54, if told to beg or denied when I need to pee? It won't be pretty but degrading, urge incontenance isn't fun and kegels only do so much.

But op, if he commands you to  beg that means ahead of time the answer will be yes once you've done what he told you to. It's just to remind you that he holds the power.

As far as begging is selfish? I suppose if one is in the position that they are never to find any pleasure in sex, never deserve to have any desires or wants fulfilled, then it would be. However damn few of us join with partners who seek to have us be cyphers. Most people want their partners to find them wildly exciting sexually, not to dread sex as just another unpleasant chore. Because lets face it, if a woman doesn't want it, she won't be wet, it will be painful and she's messy afterwards. Who would chose that willingly?

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RE: The Art of begging - 7/1/2009 6:31:58 AM   
sweetsub1957


Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline 		oops!

~deleted by me~

< Message edited by sweetsub1957 -- 7/1/2009 6:34:57 AM >

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RE: The Art of begging - 7/1/2009 7:04:50 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

He is telling her that in order to get her needs (wants, desires, etc.) met, she is going to have to beg for him to do so thus establishing the concept that she wants but cannot get on her own without asking him first.
i strongly (but respectfully) disagree with something here, CD, and i think it was touched on earlier in this thread.

I believe begging to get her needs met is wrong. Wants and desires? Hey...if it is your kink, go for it and bring home a tee shirt. But needs should be a given.

I believe it is my responsibility to see that her needs are met.  But how they are met...as long as they are met responsibly...are my choice.  At the beginning of a dynamic, there is nothing wrong in making the submissive beg to be allowed to go to the bathroom or to eat or drink when they are hungry/thirsty IF it helps to reinforce the idea the flow/concept/structure of the dynamic. 
I've said before that I am not into micromanagement for micromanagement's sake, nor do I have the time or desire to micromanage.  But at the beginning of a dynamic...during problem cycles in the dynamic that have come about from too much complacency or too much living like a "normal" couple, too much outside distraction/questioning of the dynamic set up within the submissive's head...these are times when a more-encompassing control in all areas, along with plenty of discussion, can be called for.

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RE: The Art of begging - 7/1/2009 7:09:49 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

UNLESS the submissive is using her knowledge of even this type of dominant to achieve her goals.  At that point, I suppose it could be argued that she is being manipulative but I would think that the bigger argument could be made for her not being submissive but either pandering to what she knows of his ways or surreptitiously, and full awareness, usurping of his control.
 

In other words, wouldn't that then be Topping from the bottom?
That is exactly what it would be.  The type of dominant I described in the bigger post above who is being subjected to this may or may not be aware of it but the submissive certainly is and at that point, in her awareness of her manipulation rather than her submission, she is neither being true to what she claims is her submission nor to the dynamic.

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