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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 7:36:01 PM   
autoRelease


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungMaster1988
My opinion is this: gender should not be open to discussion or a matter of opinion, if you're born female or male then that is what you are, if you have surgery to change this then you are transsexual, by all means consider yourself female but please don't expect others to. :)


First of all let me admit that I haven't read the entire thread.  Second of all let me shock everyone by saying that I'm a transsexual and I agree with YoungMaster1988.

I consider myself to be a competent writer, however some people might disagree with that.  I don't consider myself to be attractive, however some people might disagree with that. I could tell people I just saw a ghost, and they might refuse to believe me. I do not see a difference between any of those things and the fact that I consider myself to be a man despite being born with two X chromosomes.

It would be ridiculous for me to expect everyone to like me.  Therefore I don't expect everyone to approve of my choice to have a sex change either. Furthermore, I'm confident enough in myself not to feel insulted or intimidated by people who say they don't like how I think of myself. If I meet someone who doesn't approve of my gender identity, I choose not to associate with them, just like I would choose not to associate with someone who said I was stupid.

(I should point out that I'm talking just talking about opinions here... Actual legal discrimination against transsexuals is another matter entirely).

Now here's the other side of that coin: It was rude of you to tell this woman she should put TS in her profile. If you got mail from a woman you thought was butt ugly, would you bother telling them that or would you just ignore their message?  If you don't like transsexuals then don't get with them, but don't be an ass about it either.





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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 7:39:05 PM   
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I'm pretty.I'm cute . I've bled and suffered for a long time to get here.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 7:48:46 PM   
DavanKael


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I've not read all of the posts on this thread but I think that as long as a person is up front very early on (Like in their profile or the first few communiques) about their alterations, I don't really care what box they check in terms of gender identification. 
It is extremely important to be open about the dysphoria that results in one choosing to alter their physical presentation as male or female but, again, elucidating that promptly verbally/in print or in the form of checking the requisite box matters not, imo. 
  Davan

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 7:49:16 PM   
GreedyTop


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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Wynd.. he is not being crucified for his preference for genetic fems.   His  battering is coming from his POV that all TS folks should be  automatically required to IMMEDIATELY identify as TS.


I understand that part, GT.   But as I kept reading, I kept "hearing" more criticism for his preference from some for supposedly not liking TS's, not simply for how they id'd themselves (like the comment about the white hood) which wasn't the impression I got from him as I kept reading his responses. 

I just couldn't help comparing how sympathetic we are with those who object to the overweight but seem kinda harsh with someone who objects to TS's & TG's.


hey gorgeous (you ARE  a genetic female, right? *snort*)

The white hood comment was not directed at the OP but someone else who made seriously homophobic commets... 


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 8:00:28 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

But yet, the OP is being crucified for stating his preference for "natural" (or whatever is a good way to say it) born females, and not TS's or TG's.  Granted, he may not have said it in an ideal, PC way, but I don't get the impression he's ready to go out and beat them up in an alley.  But he does have his preference for a relationship, which, based on what is usually the consensus in here, he's entitled to, and he's taking an awful lot of heat for it. 



I'm sorry windchymes but I do have to disagree with you. It is not that we are crucifying the OP's preference for biologically born females. It is the attitude and expressing how he believes that a woman who transitioned should state what she is. It is the same as if a poster came out and said all people who do not have an actual profile pic of themself are scammers and a joke. Even the OP stated that he can't get his mind around the fact that a woman once had a penis. When I read that, it leaves no doubt in my mind that the OP hasn't grasped the concept that a penis does not fully define a male and a vaguina does not fully define what a female is.


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 8:13:33 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungMaster1988

I seem to have caused a slight uproar in the transsexual/"gender dysphoria" community by sending a user a tongue-in-cheek (probably not the right decision but still) message about how said person should list themselves as TS rather than Female as they are a post-op transsexual.

It just irritated me a bit that after having female in my search preferences a number of transsexual profiles came up (with them revealing themselves as post-op later on in their profile).

Anyway, since my message they've written a blog about me and I've recieved a bit of hate mail off them and their fans (but I'm blocked so I can't respond - seems a little unfair?) and I was just wondering what the general view on this is? Was I right to challenge this post-op transsexual for having their gender down as female or am I being ignorant?


My opinion is this: gender should not be open to discussion or a matter of opinion, if you're born female or male then that is what you are, if you have surgery to change this then you are transsexual, by all means consider yourself female but please don't expect others to. :)



You wrote a note to a perfect stranger just to poke fun at them, got blocked, got hate mail and truly wonder if you were ignorant? Doesn't the response you got for your little tongue-in-cheek email answer that question for you rather well?

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 8:16:41 PM   
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~waves at Julia~  You have a great profile.  :)

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 8:25:57 PM   
shmauds


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back to the original post as I haven't time to read all the replies.  I am one in this position.  MtF trans that is.  I didn't go through this whole process to be considered trans anything.  I am for all intents and purposes considered female, unless you want to include the babymaker.

I do imply pretty obviously about my recent surgery and up until that point I listed as trans.  I think its funny how many people change their tune after they learn about my past.   Its actually beneficial in a way as it seems to really weed out the people that aren't open minded as that is the type of person i am searching for.

I am not delusional and realize that this is an issue with a prospective mate and it gets brought up at the appropriate timing as each individual has different views. 

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 8:55:23 PM   
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What???? Somebody misrepresenting themselves on the internet?? Who came up with that idea??? And does anybody really, actually do THAT? It does seem to boil down to preferences. How many times has anybody posted that honesty, integrity, and respect are of the utmost importance to them, only to meet them in real life and find those qualities are of a matter of fact barely a concern at all? If a person dies and several years later their bones are exhumed and tested, what does their DNA say they are then?

I leaned towards siding with the DNA test before reading this post and doing a small, however incomplete bit of research. It is interesting that a majority of medical authorities side with a transsexual being the sex/gender of their choosing after meeting certain criteria, but their DNA proves otherwise. How can a medical authority affirm a position on a scientific basis if their own science declares differently? Before responding to this post and appearing to be a total dunce instead of the partial dunce that I have accepted myself as being, a search on intersex yielded the somewhat surprising discovery that XY and XX is not set in stone as there are indeed other rare combinations and conditions, a point that has been brought up between the time that writing this response began and by the time it will have been completed.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/7860/intersexuality_and_the_battle_of_the.html
http://www.itpeople.org/intersexed.php
http://www.secondtype.com/intersexed.htm

What I found most interesting is that one of those sites states that "Humans all begin as females, and without the introduction of the Y chromosome gene called SRY the default is for the gonads to develop into female sex organs (ovaries, vagina, clitoris, etc.)"  At first I wondered how that could be if the sperm initially carries the Y chromosome, but then realized that regardless of the chromosome structure, as a unique individual our lives are conceived while part of a woman's body (generally speaking) therefore our lives do indeed begin as a woman. Reading some of that information was a bit confusing and almost made my head spin, does that mean deep down I am still a woman or possibly could have been reincarnated from one?

If a "vagina" is the passage leading from the uterus to the vulva in certain female mammals, without originally being attached to a uterus is the vagina still an authentic vagina? If it is only described as a "a sheathlike part or organ" would define many objects as a vagina, helping to explain why certain adolescent routines often remain popular by many. How deep is a surgically installed vagina and how does that affect sex with somebody that has an extra large penis? Are vaginas displayed like noses where one gets to choose the style of vagina that they want? And when or how does a vagina turn into just a plain ole' cunt? With the proper advances in medical science, how attractive would a "woman" be if she had four or five "vaginas," especially if those openings could menstruate at alternate occasions? Then nobody could use that excuse for cheating on their partner. My input into this discussion may be as useless as tits on a bull, but could pose another possibly relative question, does sewing tits on a bull turn it into a heifer? Granted, I sincerely doubt I could ever feel comfortable swapping spit with anybody that once lived in a man's body much to the same cause and effect that I will not ever develop a taste for mayonaisse, nor will ever want to. I really dislike the taste of mayonaisse but do not condemn mayonaisse for being mayonaisse instead of cheddar cheese.

When I first moved from way out in the woods into the big city, my first job was on a construction crew. The foreman seemed quite gay to me. Being a victim of certain stigmas that developed from being raised in a certain manner, at times had me feeling uncomfortable while in his presence. The gossip and joking amongst the manly men of the crew was that he was gay, it was a construction crew. At times I questioned my own judgement as to whether he was or not, still affected by the stigma, because at times he didn't "act gay," but other times there seemed to be no doubt that he was gay. Whether or not he was was not of enough importance to ask him. We eventually became somewhat close friends and after awhile, still unsure of his preferences, it did not matter if he was or wasn't, he was my friend and a good person, so I wasn't going to waste precious brainwaves further debating the matter within myself. He had lent me some money and through the course of time, moving on to other work and losing track of each other, years later I successfully looked him up to pay him back. The first time I walked into his home office it became clear what his preference was, but by that time the stigma had further worn down and it truly mattered even less than before, he was my friend and had helped me in times of financial distress with only my word that I would someday pay him back, and even had given me a floor to sleep on when needed. To this man I will be forever grateful.

What's next, having to declare whether one has fake tits or not, or having to state how big our cock is so nobody will be disappointed? If we are interested in somebody for whatever reasons, it is up to us to find these things out on our own, not expecting everything to be declared up front or in a laundry list manner. Most avenues for meeting others attempt to either promote or discourage certain types of behavior, this one being no different, so any difficulties encountered within those confines probably just go with the territory. There will always be those who will deceive others due to their own apprehensions, and that has nothing to do with gender or sex  Allowing anything posted on an internet dating site to be a true reflection of who that person really is could be a mental deficiency worthy of it's own significance. Whether one is looking for just a fuck, or a lifelong commitment, there will always be issues of some kind, and it is probably not such a good idea overall to be too comprehensively judgemental about anyone. If given the opportunity that person could someday turn out to be the best of friends, just not one that satisfies a particular sexual preference or fits into a mold of what is right or wrong.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 9:22:32 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Atranssexual person IS the gender that they identify as.

Well, not really. That's the entire point. I'd think plain honesty and self-honesty would illicit a furor over admitting what they are and what they were, especially in a place where people looking to meet each other (in which case their refusal can be construed as misleading).


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 9:25:35 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungMaster1988

I seem to have caused a slight uproar in the transsexual/"gender dysphoria" community by sending a user a tongue-in-cheek (probably not the right decision but still) message about how said person should list themselves as TS rather than Female as they are a post-op transsexual.

It just irritated me a bit that after having female in my search preferences a number of transsexual profiles came up (with them revealing themselves as post-op later on in their profile).

Anyway, since my message they've written a blog about me and I've recieved a bit of hate mail off them and their fans (but I'm blocked so I can't respond - seems a little unfair?) and I was just wondering what the general view on this is? Was I right to challenge this post-op transsexual for having their gender down as female or am I being ignorant?


My opinion is this: gender should not be open to discussion or a matter of opinion, if you're born female or male then that is what you are, if you have surgery to change this then you are transsexual, by all means consider yourself female but please don't expect others to. :)



You wrote a note to a perfect stranger just to poke fun at them, got blocked, got hate mail and truly wonder if you were ignorant? Doesn't the response you got for your little tongue-in-cheek email answer that question for you rather well?

After rereading the OP I noticed what you said here.

Going out of one's way to prod a private user based on frustration over profile clarity is infantile.

And it's depressing because the neutral topic of how TS members should advertise themselves is a rather interesting one.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 9:38:55 PM   
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I have no negative bias against transgendered individuals (And, while this may be taken the wrong way by some oh, well: I think a really gorgeous woman with a penis is pretty freakin' hot).  My main thoughts and concerns around this relate to: 1) The safety of the individual if they did not disclose and the other person freaked out and 2)The dishonesty of not disclosing.  Let me explain that one a bit further: if I had a boob job or dyed my hair (My rack's real and my hair's the color it's always been though I'm not keen on the non-brown creeping in but I digress), I would think it dishonest not to tell a partner of those things.  Now, the surgeries involved in swtiching body appearance from m to f or f to m (Plus, meds, etc.) are a lot more pervasive than fake breasts or dyed hair.  So, safety and honesty.  Informed consent. 
And, as I asserted earlier, I still don't care if someone clicks male, female, or tg/ts on their profile as long as it's something that's addressed promptly. 
  Davan

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 9:51:32 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I have no negative bias against transgendered individuals (And, while this may be taken the wrong way by some oh, well: I think a really gorgeous woman with a penis is pretty freakin' hot).  My main thoughts and concerns around this relate to: 1) The safety of the individual if they did not disclose and the other person freaked out and 2)The dishonesty of not disclosing.  Let me explain that one a bit further: if I had a boob job or dyed my hair (My rack's real and my hair's the color it's always been though I'm not keen on the non-brown creeping in but I digress), I would think it dishonest not to tell a partner of those things.  Now, the surgeries involved in swtiching body appearance from m to f or f to m (Plus, meds, etc.) are a lot more pervasive than fake breasts or dyed hair.  So, safety and honesty.  Informed consent. 
And, as I asserted earlier, I still don't care if someone clicks male, female, or tg/ts on their profile as long as it's something that's addressed promptly. 
Davan

30 points.

Aside from what you already listed, the only other argument is one of inconvenience from having to read through someone's profile to get to the disclosure; an argument that isn't going to garner much sympathy.


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 9:54:09 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarKirby
My take on this.
We know the general meaning of trans. But I view it as having a secondary meaning. Transitory.

Pre ops, are correcting their life, becoming who they believe they should be.  But I'd say, post ops, those confidant enough to begin looking for a partner, who live their chosen life each day, are no longer transitory. They have reached the destination.

In general, I view a transsexual as someone who is in between. I don't think it fits for those who have achieved what they set out to do.


Yes but "trans" is still in the word "transitioned." Which means past tense....as in they have transitioned to what they are now. So it still applies.


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 9:55:23 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarKirby

quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungMaster1988

Its about what goes on in my head as well though, I'm not doubting that transsexuals are attractive and good at sex but for me, and I expect everyone, what is attractive isn't just what is pleasing to the eye, its also psychological and I'm afraid with a transsexual the fact that they used to be a man would always play on my mind.

I'm sorry and I really do wish that wasn't the case but it is, I don't see why you should belittle it as an "icky feeling" like its childish or ignorant for me to think this. People like different things and are allowed to like different things, the point of my post wasn't what turns you on vs doesn't turn you on, it was whether transsexuals should be classified as female on this website.


Then think of this.
What if you didn't know?
What if this person never told you their history. You met up, found each other perfectly suited, lived together happily for years. Who is hurt by not telling you?

If it came to starting a family, they could just claim to be barren, not even technically lying.

This feeling you have, serves no purpose except as a possible barrier to a fulfilling relationship. And it seems like you'd be better off not knowing.

If someone you'd been married to for 10 years and loved dearly, admitted that they were born a man and had the operation before you met. Would you throw everything away because of your principle?



And if the truth ever came to light, the potential for harm would be immense. I ended a relationship that was based on a lie. This would be no different.


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 9:56:29 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarKirby
What are you saying here? Dominants can't be young?


The term used was "master" not dominant.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 10:55:11 PM   
DavanKael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
30 points.
Aside from what you already listed, the only other argument is one of inconvenience from having to read through someone's profile to get to the disclosure; an argument that isn't going to garner much sympathy.


< happy dance >  Does that put me at 100?  I really do need to add that count to my sig line!  :> 
And, i agree completely with you: if someone's whining about having to read a profile, I'm going to look at them in my most dead-pan fashion and say, " F*&kin' waaaaah!" 
  Davan

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 11:08:14 PM   
sweetsub1957


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
30 points.
Aside from what you already listed, the only other argument is one of inconvenience from having to read through someone's profile to get to the disclosure; an argument that isn't going to garner much sympathy.


< happy dance >  Does that put me at 100?  I really do need to add that count to my sig line!  :> 
And, i agree completely with you: if someone's whining about having to read a profile, I'm going to look at them in my most dead-pan fashion and say, " F*&kin' waaaaah!" 
  Davan




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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 12:46:52 AM   
DemonKia


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FR, after read thru

lol

Okay, while we're wishing for super-specialized categories that help keep us unruffled & totally in our comfort zone at all times, I want one for 'hostile asswipes who have no idea how hateful they come across as, & play all innocent about their hostility' . . . . . Or maybe a 'passive aggressive' tick-box . .. ..

Instead, OP, I just make use of that handy-dandy 'Hide' button, that's what it's there for . . . . . I use it all the time on the 'Home' page on the CM side of this site to hide those who I can see from the first coupla paragraphs are totally wrong for me, who's words offend me, whatever . . .. . . & even if I do feel the urge to share with them how unworthy they are of my magnificence, I just hold my tongue & hit that 'Hide' button & voila, they never grace my searches again . . . . . .

Ah. & sidenote to Greedy: the Olympics has been DNA testing for gender for decades, & so do all the athletic organizations that feed into the Olympics. I remember all the fooforaw when it started, all the worries that the Soviets & the East Germans were gonna cheat by sneaking men into the women's competitions via sex-change surgery . .. .

< Message edited by DemonKia -- 7/5/2009 12:49:22 AM >


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 1:20:15 AM   
aravain


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(Posting this just after reading the first post. Man, I shouldn't read threads like this before bed; gets me all riled up!)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungMaster1988
I was just wondering what the general view on this is? Was I right to challenge this post-op transsexual for having their gender down as female or am I being ignorant?


You're being incredibly ignorant. You were wrong to challenge her... she is a "she" and I don't understand why you think differently (probably never will, being a form of 'trans' myself, I don't understand binary peeps and how they think in general). She was *post-op* (meaning, in case you didn't know, post-operation; meaning she had/has a vagina; is taking hormones every day; IS AS FEMALE AS YOU CAN GET without popping out a baby and bleeding once a month (apologies for being crude, all))

I could *maybe* understand some anger/disdain/reason IF she wasn't open about herself... but you said that she even said it on her profile!

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