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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/9/2009 7:06:12 AM   
OttersSwim


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Fast reply in general to this old topic...

No one can oppress you unless you let them.  I am inside a box of my own making.  No one can change that box but me.  It doesn't matter what they call me, label me, or think about me.  I remain unchanged unless I give myself over to caring about how they would remake my box to be larger or smaller.

I have recently encountered some of this sort of thought down the road of what defines "transgender".  It would be easy to get all up in arms over it and spew indignity...but I think instead I will stay right over here, safe and unchanged in my box of my own making.    


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/9/2009 8:20:09 AM   
GreedyTop


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well said, Otters :)

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/9/2009 8:35:04 AM   
SimplyIsaac


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Fast reply in general to this old topic...

No one can oppress you unless you let them. 



Tell that to the victims of Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge, or the Nazi social party, the KKK, KGB, or King George's morality police right here in the good US of A.





quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
I am inside a box of my own making.  No one can change that box but me.




Sure they can. They can set it on fire, smash it open, throw it in a lake, talk shit about you while you're in your box.

Keep out of your box and know what's going on around you, is my advice.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/9/2009 9:01:15 AM   
OttersSwim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Fast reply in general to this old topic...

No one can oppress you unless you let them. 



Tell that to the victims of Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge, or the Nazi social party, the KKK, KGB, or King George's morality police right here in the good US of A.





quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
I am inside a box of my own making.  No one can change that box but me.




Sure they can. They can set it on fire, smash it open, throw it in a lake, talk shit about you while you're in your box.

Keep out of your box and know what's going on around you, is my advice.



Yea yea...I think we all understood the context of my post - that of letting others define you or caring what they think.  In the context of your other comments, I will reference you to this thread - http://www.collarchat.com/m_2841608/tm.htm


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/9/2009 9:09:01 AM   
LadyPact


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Again?  Really???

Look, this is really very simple.

Whether you agree that TV/TG/TS folks who are m2f are female because they have the right or are in the process of getting the right body parts or they never will be because at one time they had the wrong body parts, you can pretty much count on there being people out there who have the opposing view.  No number of hours spent typing personal manifestos is going to change that. 

I'm not saying don't express yourself, but you have to realize that at some point, you are losing the interest of the very people you want to hear you. 


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/9/2009 9:53:43 AM   
SimplyIsaac


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim


Yea yea...I think we all understood the context of my post - that of letting others define you or caring what they think.  In the context of your other comments, I will reference you to this thread - http://www.collarchat.com/m_2841608/tm.htm





Cool beans, Otter. Its just that you used the word "oppressed". I don't think it was a bad word at all, because frankly, caring what others think, not letting others define you and keeping from being oppressed is the challenge of many transgendered individuals. It's all related. It's not compartmentalized. People's thoughts eventually lead to actions... and sometimes violent and oppressive ones.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/9/2009 8:28:22 PM   
VioletGray


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Should trans people HAVE to list themselves as trans? No.

Would it be the considerate thing to do? Yes.

What gets us off in the bedroom doesn't need to be PC.  If someone is unattracted to trans people, that is their right.

The sooner the person knows that you are trans, the sooner they can make this decision for themselves and perhaps save both of you time.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/10/2009 5:05:16 AM   
WIngedOne


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Some questions for Violet who said:

Should trans people HAVE to list themselves as trans? No.

Would it be the considerate thing to do? Yes.


What or who are the "trans people" people you speak of?
You seem to possess this knowledge. I need to know - should I encounter one.

What does a "trans person" look like? How do they behave?
As you seem to have these "trans people" all worked out I am assuming they must be a clearly defined group - like gay men or black people -
"trans people" must display some very basic attributes.
Do they have breasts or beards?
Should I look for big breasts or small breasts?
Should I look for big beards or small beards?


Can I trust a "trans person" as it would seem they are inherently liars?

Are "trans people" trying to deceive me? Why?

Are "trans people" the only ones trying to deceive me?
Can I trust everyone who isn't "trans" on this website?

I don't like Catholics (even though I am one). So can you tell me how to detect them?
Because Violet, I don't want to have them waste my time ... no no no
that wouldn't do at all ... and seeing as I'm considerate, I wouldn't want them to waste theirs either. This would be a big help to them not unlike the way these "trans people" can help us and themselves avoid a waste of time. It would seem a VERY CONSIDERATE THING TO DO.
Thank goodness for considerate people like you and I. 

I am so confident in your ability to specify what is
CONSIDERATE behavior on the part of "trans people".
I am hoping you can tell me what is CONSIDERATE BEHAVIOR on the part of other PEOPLE?
I'll leave it to you to categorize them seeing as you are so good at it.

I might be way wrong here .. but I'm going to put myself out on a limb.

If it is has a penis it is a MAN?
If it does not have a penis then it is not a MAN?
If it has a hole (a vagina) then it is a WOMAN?
If it doesn't have either of these things it doesn't belong ... its nothing?
I don't need to listen to what a MAN says to know its a MAN?
I don't need to listen to what a WOMAN says to know its a WOMAN, so long as I check for the presence of a PENIS or a VAGINA?

A hard one I had to really think about ...
If a MAN or a WOMAN has an accident and looses the thing they are supposed to have ... its not there when I look for it or its kinda clarrified when I get around to asking them whether they have one or not .... then I am best to consider them as NOTHING rather than take a risk being deceived by one of those crafty, sneaky, deceptive , "trans type people"?
Of course YOU will understand me because its such a terrible horrible traumatic thing to discover. Not to mention very inconsiderate of them.

If it behaves like I think a MAN should behave it is likely a MAN?
If it behaves like I think a WOMAN should behave it is likely a WOMAN?

So does this mean that DOMMES are frustrated women trying to be MEN?
Does this mean that polite sensitive men who want to kneel before me whilst I beat them are actually frustrated men trying to be WOMEN.
Does this mean ALL women are or SHOULD be submissive, if that is they are considerate about it?

My head hurts.
Wow. This isn't that simple.
I'll try and work this all out when I wake up tomorrow.
Sleep.


< Message edited by WIngedOne -- 10/10/2009 5:19:43 AM >

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/10/2009 5:32:25 AM   
Faldegast


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Yes there are plenty of people out there with various kinds of viewpoints. If those that dont like transexuals are right or wrong to not like them is not an issue here. The issue here is if those that dont like transexuals should be allowed to dictate that transexuals identify themself.

Also one should point out that there is another group that would like transexuals to identify themselfs, and that is those that is attracted to them.

A transsexual (M2F) is female. However that does not mean that a female is transsexual. Humans have a tendency to oversimplify things, including this.



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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/10/2009 6:23:30 AM   
stella41b


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FR.

Each and every single one of us here is an individual, irrespective of how they identify themselves.

When a child is born it spends the first five or so years of its life gathering information about itself, and about everything and everyone it comes into contact with. Up until the time he or she speaks and can make use of language the baby just reacts and makes a noise and hopes that someone, ideally the mother, will come and either satisfy that need. Then it forms words, its own language with which to communicate, and then it learns that it's probably best to use its own language just like everyone else.

By the time a child is six it changes, it becomes reflective, it tries to think. By the time of seven a child has normally worked out who they are, who everybody else is, what lots of things are, how it's life is going to be and what it's main objective in life is.

The thing is the child is going to grow up and get older, and it will only ever achieve what it sets out to do in life by learning and by forming relationships with other people which have some degree of success.

The thing is, that process between birth and seven kind of suggests to me that there's the presence of a soul or spirit, and even that there is such a thing as reincarnation and karma.

This is how we all live or have lived. We have all gone through these processes. We all define ourselves, we all decide how we live, and each and every one of us must decide for ourselves not just our morality and beliefs but also how we are to live in relative harmony not just among other people, but also - and perhaps most importantly - with ourselves.

How else are we going to ever hope to have a successful relationship with anyone else if we cannot or are unable to have a successful relationship with ourselves?

If I were to walk up to any man, a naturally born male, and challenge him and his own definition of himself it would be ridiculous. If I were to do the same to a woman, a naturally born woman, and express my disagreement with her definition of herself it would be unthinkable. It would be ludicrous.

And yet this is what many of the transgendered have to deal with time after time after time after time.

Just because a man has a deformed leg, for example, doesn't make him any less of a man. A woman after a hysterectomy or mastectomy is still very much a woman. The same goes for anyone who strongly feels or has been diagnosed as being born into the wrong body, or having the wrong primary or secondary physical sex characteristics.

Why focus on the deformity or the problem? Why not, just as you do with every other human being whether male or female, just focus on the person?

Is it really that difficult? Why is it so hard for some to accept someone else's definition of themselves when they themselves expect unconditional acceptance from everyone else of how they define themselves?

Edited for typos.

< Message edited by stella41b -- 10/10/2009 6:25:57 AM >


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/10/2009 8:07:04 AM   
SimplyIsaac


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WIngedOne
What or who are the "trans people" people you speak of?




People who are transgendered? I don't know...seems fairly straightforward to me.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/10/2009 8:30:37 AM   
DesFIP


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Go meet some and you'll see the issue is not that straight forward. As was mentioned, what about other gender dysmorphias such as intersexed. Or a middle schooler who doesn't even know what's wrong with him?

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/11/2009 10:25:50 AM   
SimplyIsaac


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Go meet some and you'll see the issue is not that straight forward. As was mentioned, what about other gender dysmorphias such as intersexed. Or a middle schooler who doesn't even know what's wrong with him?


You assume I haven't met such individuals. That said:

transgender:
a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.
being, pertaining to, or characteristic of a transgender or transgenders: the transgender movement.

_ _ _

transexual:
a person who has undergone a sex change operation
a person whose sexual identification is entirely with the opposite sex

_ _ _

intersexual:
Having both male and female anatomical characteristics, including in varying degrees reproductive organs and secondary sexual characteristics, as a result of an abnormality of the sex chromosomes or a hormonal imbalance during embryogenesis.


Hope that clears up the ambiguity for you.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/12/2009 2:32:36 AM   
WIngedOne


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Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion - it's called freedom of speech.

Rudeness is freely expressed
Disrespect
is freely expressed
Ignorance is freely expressed too

But when you do so .. you let everyone know that this is who you are
Now you might not care what the "bloody fag" thinks about you
But personally I find that kind of expression a total turn off and others will too

I would like to acknowledge
the wisdom that is evident in so much of what Stella says

I may have missed the mark in my deliberate style but I found myself considerably affected by those who display double standards and incredible ignorance around things TRANSGENDER

Its simple fact that society struggles with notions of NORMAL.
Humans are exception processors by design. We detect & process difference.
This capacity is an element of our very survival instincts.
We are social animals so we desire to belong
and yet we value our sense individuality and freedom.


If our skin is white then we react when we see it black
When our voice is deep we react differently to one that is high
If we are small we are aware when we approach someone big
We fear what we don't know ... until we know it is safe

We create all kinds of construct to feel safe and secure in our world
We build walls. We build ideas.
We expect men to be a certain way and we expect women to be a certain way
When any human is different to what we expect most of us will react.
So if a woman does not fit expected norms most of us will react
So if a man does not fit expected norms most of us will react

Unique from the majority of living things we have brains that provide us with the capacity to reason beyond instinctive or primal level response. This has made us a very successful species. So when you come across someone who displays gender variant behavior. Stop and use your brain. Please.

TRANSGENDER people are PEOPLE
___________________________________________________
with the same kind of hearts, minds, feelings, fears, dreams, hardships
and potential we find throughout human kind


TRANSGENDER is an UMBRELLA WORD
___________________________________________________
It is single word to describe an incredibly diverse group of people

an occasional cross-dresser
To
someone born into the nightmare of a body 
incongruous with their every concept of who they
know themselves to be

_______________________________

a heterosexual individual of either sex
who engages in the transient expression

of an opposite sex / gender persona or caricature
To
a hetereosexual individual of either sex
with a driven need, courage & capacity
to navigate one of the most profound self affirmations imaginable
usually under difficult circumstances with limited support
involving considerable personal sacrifice

_______________________________

a Gay man who presents in performance
an opposite sex / gender persona or caricature
but then goes home to his Gay partner

To
the wife of your neighbor
who doesn't talk much about her "difficult" past
_____________________________

the TOM-BOY at school who became the local
pipe laying company's first female welder

To
The Spunky Guy in your cycle club
who avoids taking communal showers for some reason
a female to male transsexual who has
not to undergone phalloplasty surgery
_____________________________

your lesbian friend who does a
raunchy Drag King performance one a month
at the Trocadero
To
The new store manager
who took the position vacated by Bob last month
but has the same surname!
yep .. "Bob" has been working on a difficult problem
she has all the skills and talents we all knew so well
she just presents like Roberta now.

In fact transgendered people
are as diverse as all humans are
which means they can be
just like you or I










< Message edited by WIngedOne -- 10/12/2009 2:39:13 AM >

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/12/2009 2:38:08 AM   
subtlebutterfly


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WingedOne, we got your point.

at least I did.


< Message edited by subtlebutterfly -- 10/12/2009 2:45:22 AM >


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/12/2009 10:46:12 AM   
VioletGray


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WingedOne:

When I say "trans person" I mean someone who identifies with or feels the need to express behavior of a different gender.  It's really not that hard.

Certainly not complex enough to warrant another 600,000 word essay to get your very direct ideas across.

You see, most people in the civilized world are able to use words to convey the same amount of ideas and points in a much more efficient space.  Your rambling, endless writing leads me to believe that you are not of sound mind for me to continue this discussion with you.  Your heart is in the right place, but I can't imagine sitting at the computer and typing the way you do for EVERY response.  I WISH I had energy like that.  If you can keep it down to a length where I'm not blowing out the wheel of my mouse from all the scrolling, then perhaps I'll read it.

SubtleButterfly, I applied your patience, for it is greater than mine.

< Message edited by VioletGray -- 10/12/2009 10:49:15 AM >

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/12/2009 10:52:49 AM   
SimplyIsaac


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray

WingedOne:

When I say "trans person" I mean someone who identifies with or feels the need to express behavior of a different gender.  It's really not that hard.



Agreed. I found myself wondering what is so difficult with this concept.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/16/2009 3:21:13 AM   
WIngedOne


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Its good that people are talking around this topic
Someone might actually learn something
(and a few clearly need to)
______________________________________________


When an individual diagnosed as Transsexual is approved for and completes the rigorous treatment regimen & legal requirements involved, including undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery
THEY ARE NO LONGER CONSIDERED TRANSSEXUAL
Regardless what
Mr HOMOPHOBE or little MISS PRECIOUS think or feel

Like many important things, decisions concerning Transsexuals are considered & determined by highly qualified professionals who bring their knowledge and wisdom together in our highest and most respected institutions, including our highest Courts.

THEY ARE GRANTED THE PRIVILEDGE OF FEMALE (or MALE) STATUS
Regardless what
Mr HOMOPHOBE or little MISS PRECIOUS think or feel

A former Transsexual can be someone thought to be …
A Female at birth who latter in adulthood affirms their status as Male
A Male at birth who latter in adulthood affirms their status as Female
Regardless what
Mr HOMOPHOBE or little MISS PRECIOUS think or feel
 

A former transsexual has the choice whether they disclose or not. It's no one else’s.  It is the right to privacy we all exercise.
Regardless what Mr HOMOPHOBE or little MISS PRECIOUS think or feel

A former transsexual might choose to disclose their private past for no other reason but
To protect themselves from people like MR HOMOPHOBE and MISS PRECIOUS

PS For Sexy Violet - I just love splashing around these forms and colors. I guess I must be competent with the mouse or something. Don't be concerned I live comfortably with lots of time at my disposal. You see I made allot of money designing cool things you probably use everyday. I do some charity work a couple of days a week, I travel, I sail my yacht and do kinky things with my kinking sexy friends. Just lately I've enjoyed some quiet late hours trying to wake up a few dull minds here. If you don't get it. That's OK. If you can't count. I'm sorry. There will always be those who get it and those that don't. Have a great day now!
(Can ya feel the hate ...aaaahhhhhhhh  yehhhhhhhhh)


< Message edited by WIngedOne -- 10/16/2009 3:36:04 AM >

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/16/2009 10:20:12 PM   
WIngedOne


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Subtlebutterfly  I appreciated your comment. I did enjoy the rant.

I don't have a problem with people saying what they think, but its that Gerald Ford concept:
DISAGREE WITHOUT BEING DISAGREEABLE.

I don't care what the ignorant homophobes and other disrespectful types like or dislike because the real world is bigger than their tiny minds.

And though I find them very unattractive, I don't need a separate category for them, because a short conversation reveals who they are pretty quick.

Thank you. Yes I enjoyed the drink. My phone number?
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm really just too busy at the moment. Bye .....



< Message edited by WIngedOne -- 10/16/2009 10:39:26 PM >

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/16/2009 10:41:35 PM   
GreedyTop


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You do realize that the ones that need to see/read/comprehend/take to heart the things you're saying will probably stay miles away from this thread, and even farther away from a willingness to listen?

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