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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 1:50:07 AM   
Racquelle


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quote:

Racquelle, what do you think of someone who happens to have been born with a penis, but grew up playing games, with toys, and activities that are generaly regarded as girls things? What if despite their physical anatomy they did not have an interest in the things that boys are supposed to do growing up? By the same token, would you consider a girl who grew up as a classic tom-boy to be male? What if someone has the physical anatomy of one gender, but the brain chemistry of the other?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Racquelle

Part of me, in my heart of hearts feels that a male who has become female by hormones and surgery is not entirely the same as a woman who was born female and grew up as female. And I don't say that to suggest this person is somehow less or bad - just not the same. Gender is so much about how one is raised, socialized, and even the biochemical experiences of growing up and puberty and all that. A woman who became one at age 40 simply has not had the life of a woman born as one. That is my emotional take on it in any case.


Ok, fair question.  What I think is that playing with toys does not a gender define.  That said, I still don't think that a person of one gender who later becomes the other gender can ever have the same formative experiences as someone who was born a gender and has remained that gender.  That is not to say that whatever experience that trans person has had isn't valid, it just isn't the same.  But really, no two people will have the same experience in life.

The rest of your questions really confirm my later point.  Gender is not simple.  Gender is not absolute.  Gender is fluid, and framed by so many factors, who is really to say?  In several cultures, there are more than two genders recognized, some places I think there are even 12 distinct genders recognized.  Are we our genitals?  Are we our chromasomes? Are we a product of our environment?  Our culture?  We are what we have been becoming.  I don't know anything else for sure.  I think I am a woman, but perhaps I am a delusional house cat.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 3:15:07 AM   
sugargirlxxx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Atranssexual person IS the gender that they identify as.  Just because YOU have a problem with it is no reason for them to identify by the gender they were born into.

Get over yourself.



100% agrees with you GreedyTop.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 5:53:54 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarKirby

Then think of this.

What if you didn't know?
What if this person never told you their history. You met up, found each other perfectly suited, lived together happily for years. Who is hurt by not telling you?

If it came to starting a family, they could just claim to be barren, not even technically lying.

This feeling you have, serves no purpose except as a possible barrier to a fulfilling relationship. And it seems like you'd be better off not knowing.

If someone you'd been married to for 10 years and loved dearly, admitted that they were born a man and had the operation before you met. Would you throw everything away because of your principle?



we're getting divorced. because that's one gigantic oops. his refusal to be honest denied me the right to choose what is best for me. furthermore, it would make me wonder what else he didn't tell me. i'd have to wonder who's needs were being served by the omission - his or mine? it would seem that if the person feels i'm worth it and i'm all the things he wants he would be compelled to tell the truth. i'd have a really hard time believing that if he lied and carried it on for years.

porcelaine


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 5:57:13 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Ah. & sidenote to Greedy: the Olympics has been DNA testing for gender for decades, & so do all the athletic organizations that feed into the Olympics. I remember all the fooforaw when it started, all the worries that the Soviets & the East Germans were gonna cheat by sneaking men into the women's competitions via sex-change surgery . .. .


definitely true. i know for a fact that you can't play on the pga or lpga as the new sex. they make it clear you must be legally born the gender that fits both tours and to my knowledge this has never been challenged.

porcelaine


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 5:59:55 AM   
slaveboy291


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Ah. & sidenote to Greedy: the Olympics has been DNA testing for gender for decades, & so do all the athletic organizations that feed into the Olympics. I remember all the fooforaw when it started, all the worries that the Soviets & the East Germans were gonna cheat by sneaking men into the women's competitions via sex-change surgery . .. .


definitely true. i know for a fact that you can't play on the pga or lpga as the new sex. they make it clear you must be legally born the gender that fits both tours and to my knowledge this has never been challenged.

porcelaine



Also I remember reading somewhere at one of the recent Summer Olympics some kinda scandle about a female participant having been born with male genitilia(had it removed if memory serves) and I believe she was disqualified for not revealing what she was.  I think it was judo or something like that.  It was a while back so I don't remember all the details.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 6:05:49 AM   
Irishknight


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If I read this correctly, you found out that these people were TS by reading the profile.  Ummmm ....if it says TS anywhere in the profile then they are being honest.   If they tell you when you start talking to them, they are being honest.  If they lie and you find out another way, you have a serious complaint.
I think if there is a stem on the apple and they tell you they are female, you have a valid complaint.  I have a friend who identifies as a "woman in training."  I love that bit of honesty from her (or is it her-to-be?).


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 8:32:32 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungMaster1988

I seem to have caused a slight uproar in the transsexual/"gender dysphoria" community by sending a user a tongue-in-cheek (probably not the right decision but still) message about how said person should list themselves as TS rather than Female as they are a post-op transsexual.

It just irritated me a bit that after having female in my search preferences a number of transsexual profiles came up (with them revealing themselves as post-op later on in their profile).

Anyway, since my message they've written a blog about me and I've recieved a bit of hate mail off them and their fans (but I'm blocked so I can't respond - seems a little unfair?) and I was just wondering what the general view on this is? Was I right to challenge this post-op transsexual for having their gender down as female or am I being ignorant?


My opinion is this: gender should not be open to discussion or a matter of opinion, if you're born female or male then that is what you are, if you have surgery to change this then you are transsexual, by all means consider yourself female but please don't expect others to. :)



wah wah! I wanked over a picture of this real hot girl, but then, when I made use of eleven years of schooling and read the profile.......... eeeuurrggghhhhh! Now I feel the need to make a fuss to prove to myself that I'm not gay (even though it was her hot feminity that sparked my "interest") - because heaven knows no one else saw me so it must be myself I'm trying to convince.....

I get it all the time m'dear; the initial mails promising this and that, based on a few profile pics (though it may be my car they're drooling over), and then the follow ups a day or so later - when the pictures maybe have lost their immediate appeal and my profile is read - where he cant meet up as planned after all for some reason but will be in touch (honest). I take the former as a compliment considering my age and origins, but the latter as evidence of stupidity I'm afraid.

I list as female for a very simple reason - "trans" is such a nuanced thing. The category with good intentions no doubt incorporating everyone nevertheless is insufficient to distinguish between the leisure interest crossdresser and the likes of me and several others here who live it every hour of every day, not because we "want" to but because we have to.

E

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 1:56:49 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
we're getting divorced. because that's one gigantic oops. his refusal to be honest denied me the right to choose what is best for me. furthermore, it would make me wonder what else he didn't tell me. i'd have to wonder who's needs were being served by the omission - his or mine? it would seem that if the person feels i'm worth it and i'm all the things he wants he would be compelled to tell the truth. i'd have a really hard time believing that if he lied and carried it on for years.


Well said.


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 3:07:15 PM   
Arpig


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Maybe now is a good time to point out that if you search for "trans" the vast majority of what turns up are transvestite men.

Leave the ladies (both long-term and newly-minted) to identify themsleves however they wish. As to when should the fact of the operation be revealed, I would say round about the time that intimacy is being considered...note I said considered, not consumated, that would be too late. Actually, I find it kind of sad that so many would consider it a deal breaker. I used to hold the opinion that one's birth certificate should not be changed, now, thanks to the very cogent arguements of Lady E and some others, I don't feel it is really my business. It really is nobody's business but the person who has undergone the surgery.

If somebody I had been intimate with for an extended period of time were to suddenly announce to me that she (or he) had been born the opposite gender; yes, I would be hurt. Not that they had hidden it from me, but that they felt they needed to hide it from me for such a long time. I would be hurt that they didn't feel they could trust me with the information.

I honestly do not care what plumbing a person was born with, and unless the idea of procreating is in the cards for a relationship, then one's genetic gender really shouldn't matter all that much, after all, you liked the way the person looked, and you liked the person's personality before you found out about the operation...why should you not continue liking that person's looks and personality after finding out about the operation.


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 4:47:47 PM   
zenny


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What? No, they are trying to say that we start out as women because the Y chromosome releases androgen which causes the gonads to form and release a Mullerian inhibiting substance (the structure that forms into the cervix and some other things) iirc. Then the Mullerian structure is reabsorbed. An embryo of XX uses both the Mullerian and Wolffian structures to form its reproductive organs.

We all start off as a base template that has everything we need depending on our chromosomes to become what is generally associated with male, female, or other.

ITT: people use gender and sex incorrectly.

< Message edited by zenny -- 7/5/2009 5:19:13 PM >

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 5:00:07 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Why should TS's use the function? Look at the sheer ignorance and bias against them.  Like most people, most Ts's would prefer to be known as a PERSON, not their genitalia.  If they mention in the profile that they are TS, then they ARE NOT being dishonest.  If they wait until they've gotten to know someone a bit before disclosing,  they are not being dishonest, they are waiting to judge if the person they are talking to might be able to handle the info.

I have things *I* dont disclose until I know someone fairly well, because I know that some people would judge THE ISSUE, not THE PERSON.


Perhaps someone HAS already judged THE ISSUE for themselves and KNOW they don't want to get involved with a transexual partner. By not disclosing the TS is simply delaying their diappointment.

I have no problem having a TS as a friend..but if I were looking for a life partner of the opposite sex.. it's just my desire to have a genetically born male. Why? Penile implants are just not all that perfected.

Knowing the attitude about the French these days.. I try not to disclose that I'm the Queen of France until I'm sure they can handle it. Sounds ludicrous doesn't it? I mean I was born in Ohio with no connection to royalty.. but I've always felt that I was the Queen of France.

I wonder why there is such as disproportionate ratio of m to f than f to m reassignment?

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 7/5/2009 5:05:57 PM >

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 5:15:41 PM   
sweetsub1957


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~Fast Reply~
In my opinion.....if the person who happens to be transsexual says so somewhere, anywhere, in their profile, they are being honest.  If someone else does not completely read the person's profile and therefore misses that piece of information out of their own laziness, it's their own fault.....not the fault of the person whose profile it is.  Maybe people with narrow minds should start READING PROFILES.  I just can't believe some people can't take enough personal responsibility to actually read profiles.  If they read them, they might actually learn about the person. 
Aaaaaargh!

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 5:24:45 PM   
GreedyTop


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 7:42:15 PM   
autoRelease


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I list as female for a very simple reason - "trans" is such a nuanced thing. The category with good intentions no doubt incorporating everyone nevertheless is insufficient to distinguish between the leisure interest crossdresser and the likes of me and several others here who live it every hour of every day, not because we "want" to but because we have to.


Not to mention that everyone assumes trans means MtF. I considered picking male for that reason.  If they want trans people to be identified on the site there should really be two options... MfF and FtM. "Transgendered" is kind of useless as a description.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 7:51:34 PM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

~Fast Reply~
In my opinion.....if the person who happens to be transsexual says so somewhere, anywhere, in their profile, they are being honest.  If someone else does not completely read the person's profile and therefore misses that piece of information out of their own laziness, it's their own fault.....not the fault of the person whose profile it is. 


Thats what I was trying to say.
quote:

  Aaaaaargh!

I didn't see you say you were a pirate in your profile.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/5/2009 8:21:48 PM   
housesub4you


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Dam....I can't believe I read 7 pages of responses.....

Anyway....I'm thinking of listing myself as sardonic asshole, if I'm not will people whine

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/8/2009 6:03:34 PM   
WIngedOne


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I am really concerned about the ignorance, disrespect and homophobia I'm witnessing on CollarMe around ALL things - gender variant.

Yes some people go where they shouldn't - No doubt about it.
They join the fakes, flakes, con-artists, wannabees, ego maniacs
Doo Mee Princesses, Neanderthals, Psychos, Losers and the rest

The problem is that some of you have pulled out
that BIG BROAD BRUSH again

You've done yourself and others a HUGE disservice.

There simply isn't time in my life to read the volumes of mostly sad poorly-informed discussion. The ignorant posturing of underdeveloped minds struggling with the realities of the word they live in.  Homophobia and ignorance in abundance.

Our society has made considerable progress around many things. I recent times, "gay" and "lesbian" (Queer man). Before that we made a little progress around the color BLACK and before that SLAVERY. Of course there is still room for improvement.
With the expanded awareness each generations of humans usually manifests its pretty sad to see so many here still in the Dark Ages about things Gender Variant. Grow up - Get real.

This is a short if not impulse response. I'm hoping it will be read and considered .. I can but hope.  However with the thickness and density of some of the Neandethals here I'm already wondering why I am bothering. Just think of the fun some of you will have reasserting your ignorance over and over again whilst you flame me. Bring it on...

LABELS
Oh yes .. us humans just love slapping a label here and there.
My experience is that those who are most busy with their label slapping activities are usually the ones who aren't particularly comfortable within their own skin. Back YOU GO to personal development classes.

Hitler (and others of his disgusting ilk) knew only too well the power of labels. When you label a group then you erase the individuals that comprise it. How convenient. All those  souls conveniently rolled up into just one big horrible "thing".

The Group 49ers vs Individuality Rockets
When it suits us, we all band together under some banner or another: "Gay" or "Lesbian" or "Nazi" or "Leather" or "BDSM" or "I have a degree" or "I have two degrees" or "I didn't run Eron". Then - just as we are about to sit down, people are jostling about again trying to form sub groups: Here! Here! line up behind me. "Lipstick Lesbian". "Butch Dykes" CHOP "Dykes on Bikes".
Sets and subsets and sub-subsets and sub-sub-subset sets. Doesn't it make ya feel good.
I BELONG. AAAAhhhhhhhhh

Transsexual, Transgender, Two-Spirit, Gender Fucker, Drag Queen, Cross-Dresser, Drag King, Transvestite, Autro-Erotic Gynophiliac, Supressed Gay Man, Tom-Boy
blah blah blah Yadda Yadda Yadda

Those among us who exhibit gender variant behavior (naturally - its not a choice you know) are actually a pretty small group, regardless that there are TON of LABELS to throw about or line up behind. Whatever "logical" basis you choose (or not) to categorize these hapless Gender Freekin Weirdo's - you get VERY small groups indeed.

The term Transsexual was first appeared in 1949 and was used to define an individual who possessed a compelling desire to change apparent physiological sex.
This simple definition has been refined with time and ongoing research. A medical "Standards of Care" was established. I guess it sits alongside  "head-cold", "genital warts", "Bi-polar" and "Homosexual" WHAT?     Its GONE hey.
Wow! So those Gay Pansies along with those Lesbian B)*(()* F()*()* with hairy armpits aren't sick F*((&& mental cases who should be thrown in prison like these gender f()*(* weirdo imposters who don't belong anywhere and especially
NOT HERE on COLLARME with us gguuuuurrrrrrllllllsss

Are you starting to GET _ IT?????
Poor Alan Turing. He did. Big Time.

Here is where we take a ride on that dynamic human swing
- pull together - push apart.

The very very small group of individuals who truly, legitimately, in every sense of the word, fit the said definition, who simply wanna be, have to be, are driven to be,
the boy/girl next door who used to be the girl/boy next door
Well. they have been obliterated by one big LABEL

Transgender

Their identity, struggling to be known and understood (to some extent at least) has been consumed by Gay Men In Drag, Cross-Dressing Men in dresses with hairy legs, "Chicks with Dicks", all the types who regularly appear on Jerry Springer and more

OUT OF EVERY 100 GENDER VARIANT INDIVIDUALS
LESS THAN 5 UNDERGO SEX/GENDER REASSIGNMENT SURGERY.


Pretty small group.

So what are all the rest doing?
(aside from incorrectly classifying themselves on CollarMe)

You think about that

DON"T LABEL PEOPLE
REMEMBER THE INDIVIDUAL

Genetics define Sex. Bbbzzzzzzz WRONG.
This one has been laid flat in every significant Court of Law whenever some ignoramus attempted to assert it.

If that very old and debunked argument HAD ever been held TRUE then ALL the "natal women" who just happened to have any of over 50 possible genetic conditions, would have found themselves re-categorized as a MAN the next time they saw their doctor for a checkup.
"You say I'm a MAN Doc?"
Far be it from me to argue about genes and chromosomes.

Smarter people than YOU and I have considered over 20 fundamental pieces of substantial argument as to how we might recognize someones gender identity.

Oh ... and there goes the LITTLE MISS who thinks
all the High Court Judges,
all the scientists,
all the medical professionals,
the family,
the lovers,
the friends,
the co-workers
those who spent years researching and talking
to the actual person affected
Those who know, understand, love and respect
the "she who became a he" and the "he who became a she" ...

So what does LITTLE MISS have to say now ?

Whats that?
 
THEY'RE ALL JUST STUPID .. THATS ALL


Awesome LITTLE MISS


WHEN YOU DONT HAVE AN ARGUMENT - JUST ASS - ERT!

A great and wise scholar once said
Gender should not be open to discussion or a matter of opinion
If you're born female or male then that is what you are
if you have surgery to change this then you are transsexual
by all means consider yourself female but please don't expect others to

Oooooo I get this game. Easy Peezy

Q If you are diagnosed with CANCER tomorrow
A Then CANCER is what you are and you should just DIE!

Q If you are born with ambiguous genitalia?
A Just let your obstetrics expert toss a coin and make a few snip and tuck adjustments! Gender is THAT easy.

Q If there are twenty plastic surgeons in my street and I want bigger boobies?
A Just put up with the ones I got

Q The status of all mans knowledge and scientific endeavor
A Rubbish .. all utter Rubbish

How am I doing?

CLASS ACTION

JUSTICE & LIBERTY
FOR
COLLARME CATEGORIES


PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ADD TO THIS LIST
Christian Evil Kinkster  /   Non-Christian Evil Kinkster
Black Man  /  White Man
Jew / Everybody Else
Good Looking Girl  /   Bag Ugly
Under 120lbs    /    Over 120lbs
Contented BBW   /   Fashionably Anarexic
Republican   /   Democrat  /    Dingbat
Girl with hairy Armpits   /   Smooth as SSSSSIIIIIIILLLLLKKKKK
Bitch behind a nice smile   /     Nice girl with bitchen smile
Hateful Ignorant and loving it   /   Just got back from my Sri on Goa
Witch   /    Old woman with hut in the forest


I could go on and on and on.
This is ugly. So many humans are ugly.
Righteousness, Biggotry, Ignorance are ugly.

Just one more

OK  .. I'm not totally down on you
I looked around and there were allot of people ...

- claiming to be female who didn't shave their legs before the photo was taken (not that you have to mind you)

- seemed to behave like a man when they spoke to me

- didn't think that having a little peeni weeni (PENIS) between their legs was an ODD thing for a WOMEN to have and cheerish

- Claimed to have successfully transitioned and yet:
had no curves; had a three day growth poking through "Oh so thick foundation" - no boobies - no fashion sense (at all) - a bulge in "its" pants about 7" - 9" long and a copy of "Hot Trucks" stiking out of "its" handbag and more.

No this isn't the Bizzaro World list of what defines a female.
Just pumping out letters as a reaction to the

HORROR
of
IGNORANCE



< Message edited by WIngedOne -- 10/8/2009 6:37:49 PM >

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/8/2009 6:59:21 PM   
VioletGray


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Winged One, it looks like this thread is long since dead.  True, there were a lot of self-righteous people on it who missed the point of the matter entirely.  Yes there are some people who said some bigoted things. 

But did you really expect anyone to read a post that size? What were you thinking?

Edit: I laughed when I got to "This is a short if not impulsed response"


< Message edited by VioletGray -- 10/8/2009 7:50:04 PM >

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/8/2009 8:40:46 PM   
CalifChick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WIngedOne
 
I could go on and on and on.



You did.  And you should meet MissLeslie.  Seriously.

Cali


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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 10/8/2009 11:38:11 PM   
cosmicowgurl


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The one constant I see in all this is that honesty is still lacking, A LOT! Although I understand Winged Ones frustration and some of her anger this is not a solution and in-fact makes any chance of any meaningful understanding all but impossible, I think acceptance is earned through example.
Labeling anyone is at best a slippery slope on a good day and even in Trans, community there is a lot of disagreement who is what. Personally I could care less about it or their labels they all my ass tired frankly with their I’m better than you because I’ve had this or the other thing done, BIG DEAL. Forgive me but in my experience, there are too many TS's with Man Minds trying to be women GUY’s it’s not a contest CHILL already! Just be happy in who you are and work to be better women that is something worth working for. The only way we are ever going to get anywhere is through a meaningful dialog and understanding without all the hate gee’s how hard is this?
It’s bad enough the gay community doesn’t understand or for that matter accept us and I don’t even want to discuss the some of the straight folks based on my in-box, I think there are a lot of them out there who are more confused than I am and that takes some doing. LOL! However, there is a lot of misunderstanding in this community as a whole which at first did surprise me but with some calm discussions I know in my case folks are starting to understand a little better of who and what I am. As humans, we all complex beings with different needs and desires and I think if we can accept this the rest will come in time and we’ll all be the better for it. So everybody take a deep breath and relax and for God’s sake be honest and we can avoid anymore misunderstandings because no one likes unwelcome surprises. Ok I found my hardhat, rebutals?

(in reply to CalifChick)
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