RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy'

RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (Full Version)

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TreasureKY -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 7:50:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW Where would you trim and fiddle to get us squared away? Well... I'm sorry, but it wouldn't be any one of the items you've listed. Off the top of my head, the measures I would take would include (but not be limited to): Eliminating 95% of all Federal departments, agencies, and bureaus. Top on the list to eliminate would be the Department of Education, the Department of Energy, the Department of Health and Human Services, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and large portions of the Department of the Treasury (particularly the IRS and the ATF), the Department of Labor, the Department of the Interior, the Department of Transportation, and the Department of Homeland Security. Any functions currently handled by these fund-guzzling, bureaucratic monstrosities would be handled at the State level should the overwhelming majority of the citizens of that State wish to continued with them. Overhauling the current compensation programs for Legislative office holders so that pay and benefits are reasonable and in keeping with a conservative idea of public service. Term limits would be imposed and "retirement" salaries eliminated. Participation in and funding of "global efforts" would be closely examined for relevance to the welfare the United States. Memberships and financing that did not support the preservation or moral standing of the United States, or prove to be of direct benefit to the majority of US citizens, would be eliminated. There. These steps alone should balance the budget and reduce taxes. [:D] Well shit Treasure...why not just disolve the Union while your at it....ROFLMAO. Mike... you might try clipping your quotes down to just what is relevant. And there's no need to dissolve the union. Eliminating 95% of the government waste would still leave the important stuff.

Tals -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 8:22:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Mike... you might try clipping your quotes down to just what is relevant. And there's no need to dissolve the union. Eliminating 95% of the government waste would still leave the important stuff. I'm in near 100% agreement with you Treasure.

slvemike4u -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 8:22:43 AM)
Really...mind telling us what the remaining 5% would consist of....I'm really curious as to what functions you would leave to the Federal Gov.after you have eviscerated said Gov. I'll work on the trimming thing......

rulemylife -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 8:46:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Its called the business cycle. Funds from the so called "stimulus" package have barely even been rolled out. A handful of jobs have been created, and most of those are short term. So no, it isnt a "pretty big fucking trend toward the positive", its business as usual. You've sort of said it all right there. The stimulus was passed in mid-February. Suppose we wait and see what happens and then complain if necessary?

rulemylife -> RE: Biden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 8:51:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Because his policies have done nothing to improve things but committed trillions to do it? Really? Trillions? Where are you getting that figure from?

TreasureKY -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 9:29:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Really...mind telling us what the remaining 5% would consist of....I'm really curious as to what functions you would leave to the Federal Gov.after you have eviscerated said Gov. I'll work on the trimming thing...... Not a complete list of what would remain, but essentially national defense, trade, and international relations, not to mention the federal justice system (though I'd cut on that some, too). In essence, you'd end up with a governmental body that basically handles only those things where the States need to be represented as a whole. Kinda like what the founding Fathers had in mind. [;)]

slvemike4u -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 9:47:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY "Not a complete list of what would remain, but essentially national defense, trade, and international relations, not to mention the federal justice system (though I'd cut on that some, too). In essence, you'd end up with a governmental body that basically handles only those things where the States need to be represented as a whole. Kinda like what the founding Fathers had in mind. [;)]" See there we go again ...only half the story.....Not all the Founding Fathers had such a loose confederation in mind.Certainly Washington ,Hamilton and Marshall to name a few sought and eventually acheived a strong central(Federal) Gov. Edited because my 'trimming " skills need work....lol

Marc2b -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 1:42:33 PM)
quote: Well... I'm sorry, but it wouldn't be any one of the items you've listed. Off the top of my head, the measures I would take would include (but not be limited to): Eliminating 95% of all Federal departments, agencies, and bureaus. Top on the list to eliminate would be the Department of Education, the Department of Energy, the Department of Health and Human Services, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and large portions of the Department of the Treasury (particularly the IRS and the ATF), the Department of Labor, the Department of the Interior, the Department of Transportation, and the Department of Homeland Security. Any functions currently handled by these fund-guzzling, bureaucratic monstrosities would be handled at the State level should the overwhelming majority of the citizens of that State wish to continued with them. Overhauling the current compensation programs for Legislative office holders so that pay and benefits are reasonable and in keeping with a conservative idea of public service. Term limits would be imposed and "retirement" salaries eliminated. Participation in and funding of "global efforts" would be closely examined for relevance to the welfare the United States. Memberships and financing that did not support the preservation or moral standing of the United States, or prove to be of direct benefit to the majority of US citizens, would be eliminated. There. These steps alone should balance the budget and reduce taxes. [sm=applause.gif] Damn woman, it's a crying shame you're already taken!

slvemike4u -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 2:31:37 PM)
Another poster who would like to undo all that has transpired since the Drafting of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights..... Washington....Hamilton...Adams...allow me to apologise for these misguided citizens.

TreasureKY -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 4:26:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b [sm=applause.gif] Damn woman, it's a crying shame you're already taken! Thank you, Marc. [:)] quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u See there we go again ...only half the story.....Not all the Founding Fathers had such a loose confederation in mind.Certainly Washington ,Hamilton and Marshall to name a few sought and eventually acheived a strong central(Federal) Gov. Sorry to have not replied sooner, but I actually work occasionally. Imagine my surprise to find you maligning me in another thread about a comment I made here. [8\|] quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u ...now it is a "fact" that the certain members of the Founding Fathers preferred,or if you like envisioned, a loose confederation of autonomous states....with the majority of power residing in the states......But it is also true that a like number of the "Fathers" saw the need for a strong central gov. and that the lack of such a central authority would soon see the newly minted Confederation spin off into completely seperate entities. Now what Treasure did to "fit" her argument was present the Founding Fathers as one monolithic think tank all pulling in one direction. You asked my opinion, and I gave it. While I am aware of the disagreements and disparate visions that were held by the individuals involved with forming this country, my comment was an expedient summation regarding the final Constitution that was ratified by the States. (See section 8.) While you might like to emphasize that certain individuals would have liked to have seen a much broader scope of power given to the Federal Government, it really doesn't make any difference. Perhaps the final document didn't go as far as some would have liked, perhaps it went too far for others. In the end, though, compromises were made and agreed upon to reflect the overall desired direction of the group as a whole. Nit-pick and quibble all you like, but it doesn't help your position. My comment stands very well just as it is.

TreasureKY -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 4:29:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Another poster who would like to undo all that has transpired since the Drafting of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights..... Washington....Hamilton...Adams...allow me to apologise for these misguided citizens. So because Marc and I happen to side with the framers who envisioned minimal and limited federal powers, we are somehow misguided? [8\|]

slvemike4u -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 5:11:48 PM)
To those who would eviscerate the Union(Federal Gov.) and would cite the Founding Fathers to further the argument...some quotes from one Founding Father...perhaps a first amongst equals....George Washington...: "Thirteen sovereignties pulling against each other,and all tugging at the foederal head,will soon bring ruin on the whole" or..."I do not conceive we can exist long as a nation without having lodged somewhere a power which will pervade the whole Union in as energetic a manner,as the authority of the different state governments extends over the several states" Or my faviorite........"We are either a United people or we are not.If the former,let us,in all matters of general concern act as a nation,which have national objects to promote and a National character to support.If we are not,let us no longer act a farce by pretending to it. George Washington...first amongst equals...father of his Country ...and by anyone's measure a Founding Father...These quotes are lifted from letters Washington wrote extolling a strong central gov....and a Constitution with a Bill of Rights. A federal gov which enjoys primacy over the individual states is the only thing that keeps those states from pulling in different directions and at cross purposes....Washington knew that...certainly so did Adams...and Hamilton.Hell the greatest advocate of a loose confederation there ever was one Thomas Jefferson betrayed those very ideas upon assuming the office of Presidency....an office he insisted was limited in its power and scope.With one stroke of his pen he increased exponentially both the size of the Union....and the scope of Federal primacy.The Louisiana Purchase was presented as a federal fait accompli to the states...and a Presidential fait accomplito that same federal Gov.All with powers Jefferson had swore the Office did not possess I guess suggessting that "the founding Fathers had in mind" an eviscerated Federal authority....would be wrong heh?

slvemike4u -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 5:23:37 PM)
I can't beleive it you are still trying to sell that old saw...even after I have shown you it was never true.....and certainly without any doubt there was never any one school of thought amongst the framers. What part of my post's aren't you understanding....Adams....Washington ...Hamilton and the first Chief Justice of the United States of America Marshall were all on record as favoring a strong central Gov...ie: A Federal Gov.that enjoyed primary status over the individual states......ignoring truth when it is presented to you....is a form of delusion.....carry on if you must.

slvemike4u -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 5:25:43 PM)
Treasure the broader powers were given over to the federal gov.....Jefferson himself put the nail in that coffin with the Louisiana Purchase....the information is there with minimal effort to check.

DomKen -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 6:14:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Well... I'm sorry, but it wouldn't be any one of the items you've listed. Off the top of my head, the measures I would take would include (but not be limited to): Eliminating 95% of all Federal departments, agencies, and bureaus. Top on the list to eliminate would be the Department of Education, the Department of Energy, the Department of Health and Human Services, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and large portions of the Department of the Treasury (particularly the IRS and the ATF), the Department of Labor, the Department of the Interior, the Department of Transportation, and the Department of Homeland Security. Any functions currently handled by these fund-guzzling, bureaucratic monstrosities would be handled at the State level should the overwhelming majority of the citizens of that State wish to continued with them. Overhauling the current compensation programs for Legislative office holders so that pay and benefits are reasonable and in keeping with a conservative idea of public service. Term limits would be imposed and "retirement" salaries eliminated. Participation in and funding of "global efforts" would be closely examined for relevance to the welfare the United States. Memberships and financing that did not support the preservation or moral standing of the United States, or prove to be of direct benefit to the majority of US citizens, would be eliminated. There. These steps alone should balance the budget and reduce taxes. [:D] LOL I'm sorry I wasn't following this thread before. DoD spent an estimated $583 billion in 2008. Out of $1114 billion in the entire discretionary budget. So cut out 95% of the non defence budget and the discretionary budget drops by 504.45. Sounds good? Until you examine the deficit last year was $1 trillion roughly. For all the talk of obeying the founders intent you're glossing over the fact the Founders would have been violently opposed to a large standing federal army. If you really want to cut the budget in line with the Founder's vision you would start with cutting 95%, or more, of the DoD.

slvemike4u -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 6:31:18 PM)
Hell Ken to follow her line of thought...the individual states would be responsible for their own security.....we wouldn't need the Dept.of Defence......hell she advocates something more along the line of the EU...and drapes it as a vision of the Founding Fathers....as if that group ever had one monolithic view of what form the new country would take.If it wasn't such a sad commentary on the American Educational system it would be amusing.

mstrj69 -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 6:40:09 PM)
The interesting part of threads like these is they are similar to threads about governors in the individual states. What is in common is everyone wants to blame the chief executive when it is the house and senate that has the authority to pass budgets and appropriate money and not the president or a governor by himself. The president can some up with an idea, good or bad, like the war on tearorism but while it was proposed by a republican president, it was supported by a democratic led congress. So, no there is no doubt the house and senate have to shoulder some of the blame. The last few presidents have not provided great ideas. Good ideas occasionally but most were not great. When Clinton came into office, he had a democratic controlled house and senate, what did he get passed that he wanted. He got the budget cut more and balanced more once he was dealing with a republican controlled house and senate.

Marc2b -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 6:41:27 PM)
quote: Another poster who would like to undo all that has transpired since the Drafting of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights..... Washington....Hamilton...Adams...allow me to apologise for these misguided citizens. There you go again, pushing me into the extreme. Who said anything about eviscerating? I don’t want to sill the federal government’s guts and kill it. I’m no anarchist. I don’t want to undo everything since the drafting of the Constitution but I would like to undo much. I like to think of it as putting the federal government on a strict weight loss regimen. We’ve already hashed it out over the How much power should the federal government have question and I’m in no mood to revisit that battlefield presently, but I will add this to the debate: It appears to me that you equate the idea of a federal government limited in its’ scope and power with a weak federal government. I do not see why. I do not see how putting limits on what the federal government can do in any way de-legitimizes its’ authority in the exercises of its’ legitimate powers.

slvemike4u -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 6:48:40 PM)
Well Marc when you applaud a post in which another poster has suggested doing away with 95% of the Federal Gov......what would you call it...not to mention her assertion,blatantly wrong, and by inference also applauded by you ,that the "founding Fathers" were of a single mind on this subject......you sort of move yourself to the extreme...whether you realise it or not

TreasureKY -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/7/2009 7:19:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Hell Ken to follow her line of thought...the individual states would be responsible for their own security.....we wouldn't need the Dept.of Defence......hell she advocates something more along the line of the EU...and drapes it as a vision of the Founding Fathers....as if that group ever had one monolithic view of what form the new country would take.If it wasn't such a sad commentary on the American Educational system it would be amusing. Pfft... Sorry, but you really don't know what I advocate as I gave a very vague outline, at best. It was never my intention to go into any depth or detail, and I have no desire to do so now. Wasting my time by entering into a discussion with you on the intricacies of the political climate during the founding of this nation and the struggles between the Federalists and the Democratic-Republican Parties is about the last thing on my "to do" list. Unlike others, I've better things to do than try to show off my knowledge. Think what you want, it makes me no never mind. You go on living in your own little world thinking that anyone who doesn't subscribe to your ideas must be uneducated. It's just more proof of the narrow-minded, elitist and condescending attitude of your ilk.

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