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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 6:28:42 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		Question Michael:
Do the 'best' submissives fit with the 'worst' doms?
You know the submissives who can really take the shit...
Probably rhetorical.....


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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 6:38:52 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I am sure glad BSB and I went and had our fun trashing the thread before it got completely derailed.

Have fun everyone!

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 6:46:38 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am sure glad BSB and I went and had our fun trashing the thread before it got completely derailed.

Have fun everyone!



If your idea of derailed is someone disagreeing with you, you know you could just write your opinions down in a journal.  I promise not to sneak into your house and write opposing views in there.

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 6:48:56 AM   
LadyMayhem


Posts: 6
Joined: 3/12/2009
Status: offline 		" God of perverts"....still laughing here...

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 7:01:46 AM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

I am sure glad BSB and I went and had our fun trashing the thread before it got completely derailed.



If you call reacting like a child when people disagree with the you or don't see the brilliance of your points, and posting in tandem like a couple of trolls as having fun, then you guys sure did, good job!


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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 7:18:24 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		After reading through this thread.......I kind of have to agree with Sly. A lot of senseless dick waving going on.

I am one to call a spade a spade and a moron a moron, without really caring how many people are going to agree with me or not.

If I see someone, dominant, submissive, slave, being a moron.......I am going to tell them in whatever way I am in the mood for and works within that context, I think they are being a moron. Quite often I upset the, oh the poor baby come here and let me dry your tears, brigade. They usually think I am being too quick to judge and doing so too harshly. The fact remains, I've yet to do so, and have the person prove me wrong at a later date. The moron is still a moron, just bulked up by the sympathy and support they got in the beginning. Which usually makes them a bigger moron.

I think there is a HUGE difference between inexperienced and willing to learn, versus stubbornly stupid and arrogant. Unwilling to learn from others and their own mistakes. Although, I will never give someone like that enough credit to demonize them, rather just call them a stupid putz and move on.

I think a certain amount of this sort of thing, passing judgment, is healthy. It is a survival skill. Something that is being bred out of human beings and dangerously so. More people need the skill. We would see a lot less of the typical whining and moaning because someone put them self in a position to be used, mistreated, taken advantage of.

Personally, I am not going to mollycoddle anyone. If a person has gained a reputation for being a bad anything, the responsibility is on THEM to change it, not me. Regardless of ignorance or stupidity, they did something to get there. Now they are going to have to do the work to change it. IF they see the light and ASK for my help, prove to me they really want it and are willing to do the work, I will do whatever I can and am willing to do. But it is still their responsibility to actually make the effort and do the work.

There are people on these forums I've developed different perspectives on over the length of their posting time. Some for the better and others, not so much so. It is what it is, right or wrong.


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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 8:04:08 AM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
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From: South Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

quote:

I am sure glad BSB and I went and had our fun trashing the thread before it got completely derailed.



If you call reacting like a child when people disagree with the you or don't see the brilliance of your points, and posting in tandem like a couple of trolls as having fun, then you guys sure did, good job!



Yep. That's me.  If anyone needs me, I'll be hiding under that there bridge out yonder...




Just for the record, I think what I wrote earlier neatly summarizes what I think Michael was trying convey...

quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

Ahh.. I get it. 

SCENARIO 1:
If Human "A" falls of their bike, and Human "B" says, "Don't you know how to ride a fucking bike you stupid, fucking moron?", then Human "A" is going to feel like an idiot (which might undermine their self confidence) , so the next time Human "A" rides a bike, if they feel like Human "B" is expecting them to fall again, it could become a self fulfilling prophecy; and if that were to happen, they would more than likely hide the fact they fell from Human "B" (and all of their friends) because they don't want to be called a "stupid fucking moron" again. 

OR:

SCENARIO 2:
If Human "A" falls of their bike, and Human "B" says, "Oops, are you ok?  Don't worry that happens to alot of people when they first learn to ride a bike.  Can I show an easier way to try that? It may help to keep you from falling off next time."


You advocate scenario 2.

Right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch
But the difference that the OP is trying to get across is MOTIVE.  In particular those whose intentions are good, but  makes mistakes, perhaps even to the point of injury while topping someone in a scene but instead of the bottom talking to them about those mistakes, they talk to everyone else they know EXCEPT the person who made the mistakes.    If the top has no idea they fucked up, how does that help anyone?

He isn't talking about someone who is careless and who could care less about learning good topping skills!


< Message edited by BossyShoeBitch -- 7/17/2009 8:10:16 AM >

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 8:07:29 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
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Status: offline 		*scurries under the bridge to grope BSB*

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 8:18:05 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1



You're welcome to believe what you want... and yes, I KNOW (from inside CM) many alleged Doms, for example, have submissive profiles as well... they're fakes, just pretending to be Doms in order to find a sub they can "order" to dominate them. Many alleged Doms, for example, are just married vanilla guys who learn a few buzz words and are really just looking for some perceived "easy" ass.  And yes, I feel, from personal experience, the majority of supposed Doms on kink sites have never dominated or owned anyone, but pretend they have... write that they have... act as they have; but they expose themselves quickly in their communications.  Your experience may vary from mine, but that was my experience on all the major kink sites.  So again, believe what you want to believe, it matters not... my experience shows otherwise.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 8:32:09 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		BSB, I understand what Michael is saying and in part I agree. Where I don't always agree is based upon several things.

For the most part, we are talking about adults here. Not children. Adults that SHOULD have a decent amount of common sense to know when they should ask for help learning how to ride the bike instead of assuming they can grab one off the rack and ride in the Tour de France. If they haven't got the intelligence and common sense to know the difference, they are an idiot.

Again, someone that is clueless and knows it, asks for help........wonderful. Someone that is too arrogant and stupid to admit they need help......not so wonderful.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 8:47:15 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch
In particular those whose intentions are good, but  makes mistakes, perhaps even to the point of injury while topping someone in a scene but instead of the bottom talking to them about those mistakes, they talk to everyone else they know EXCEPT the person who made the mistakes.    If the top has no idea they fucked up, how does that help anyone?


I don't really see how that has any connection to the scenario in the OP, which sounds more like a HNG e-mail exchange. If someone accidentally hurt me, especially if it were a minor ouch rather than really messing me up, I'd discuss it with him, not just complain about him. There are lots of people here who aren't compatible with me, but who I don't think are fakes or wannabes.

However, the "I am Dom, on your knees bitch!" and "i am sub, put me on my knees, Goddess!" types are notoriously impervious to any education to the contrary. I tried a lot, while I was looking, to give people the benefit of the doubt. After the guy who told me to go to Match.com because I didn't want a naked stranger in my home for a first meet, and to contact him when I decided to actually try D/s, I gave up on them. I still didn't demonise them, just let them know I wasn't interested. If one had gotten through my screening and pulled that face to face, I probably would have started giggling hysterically, but I wouldn't have demonised him!

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 8:47:22 AM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline 		I love you LaT.

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 8:54:49 AM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

BSB, I understand what Michael is saying and in part I agree. Where I don't always agree is based upon several things.

For the most part, we are talking about adults here. Not children. Adults that SHOULD have a decent amount of common sense to know when they should ask for help learning how to ride the bike instead of assuming they can grab one off the rack and ride in the Tour de France. If they haven't got the intelligence and common sense to know the difference, they are an idiot.

Again, someone that is clueless and knows it, asks for help........wonderful. Someone that is too arrogant and stupid to admit they need help......not so wonderful.



Great point, LeAnn.
Id rather have an inexperienced Dom open to learning than an arrogant one who thinks they are all knowing and not willing to listen to critique..

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 8:57:18 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

I love you LaT.


Oh thank you! I love you too! I was worried that I would not get my point across well and offend.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 8:59:23 AM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline 		(just to clarify, I am talking about safety and skill level when playing with someone here:)

The point I am trying to make is that people tend to badmouth even those people who are clueless  and would accept help, but aren't given a chance because the person with whom they made a mistake is not only NOT offering any help, but is blackballing them to boot.

"Are you ok?  I am so sorry, I didn't mean to get you in the face with that.  I'm haven't had much practice."
"I'm ok. Don't worry about it."  Whispers in all their friend's ears, "Pssst.. stay away from that moron.  They have NO idea what they are doing.  Got me right in the face.  Could have taken out an eye for gawds sake."

If someone makes a mistake and not only denies the mistake, but refuses any constructive critisism or offers of help,  whether Vanilla, Kinky, or Purple Polka Dotted, tell everyone you know to avoid them! 

"Ow, you poked my eye out!" 
"No I didn't!"
"Isn't that my eye right there on the tip of your single tail?"
"No way, that's not your eye.  That's um.. a grape in case I get hungry later!"

************************************************
*goes back under my bridge to find Greedy*

< Message edited by BossyShoeBitch -- 7/17/2009 9:08:26 AM >

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 9:08:48 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		BSB, I think we all share some responsibility in what causes that.

How many times have we read about subs/slaves only wanting to be with a dominant/top/whatever that has "experience"? The young and inexperienced are all too often treated as second class citizens.

Now those that have the ability to laugh it off, agree that they are clueless, and ask for/accept advise and help, usually get through it and become awesome dominants/mistresses/masters.

BUT, not every dominant has the self confidence to deal with it, in that manner. Quite often they get prickly and defensive, due to their own insecurities, lash out and retreat. With us poking them with sharp sticks and laughing at them. Then, due to that experience, that beat up their already fragile ego, they figure they will just start lying to cover up their failings rather than ask for help. The really sad part of the whole thing is that there are insecure, young, inexperienced s-types (or just plain stupid ones) that will end up buying into their swaggering lies, and get hurt. That's when the cycle of "demonization" will probably begin.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/17/2009 9:10:51 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 9:15:57 AM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

BSB, I think we all share some responsibility in what causes that.

How many times have we read about subs/slaves only wanting to be with a dominant/top/whatever that has "experience"? The young and inexperienced are all too often treated as second class citizens.

Now those that have the ability to laugh it off, agree that they are clueless, and ask for/accept advise and help, usually get through it and become awesome dominants/mistresses/masters.


Not only that, but probably have always been awesome human beings to boot!

quote:

BUT, not every dominant has the self confidence to deal with it, in that manner. Quite often they get prickly and defensive, due to their own insecurities, lash out and retreat. With us poking them with sharp sticks and laughing at them. Then, due to that experience, that beat up their already fragile ego, they figure they will just start lying to cover up their failings rather than ask for help. The really sad part of the whole thing is that there are insecure, young, inexperienced s-types (or just plain stupid ones) that will end up buying into their swaggering lies, and get hurt. That's when the cycle of "demonization" will probably begin.


1.  BINGO!   Which is what Michael was saying needs to change.

2.  Um.  We do that to people here all the time don't we?  Oops.


< Message edited by BossyShoeBitch -- 7/17/2009 9:17:52 AM >

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 9:25:01 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Yes we do, and I certainly include myself in the "we". Such a gray area in between the often needed clue-by-four and helping.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 9:26:01 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

1.  BINGO!   Which is what Michael was saying needs to change.

2.  Um.  We do that to people here all the time don't we?  Oops.



BSB, yep...looks like I am going to have to change how I post a bit.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/17/2009 9:26:03 AM   
abuddingdom


Posts: 158
Joined: 3/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

SCENARIO 2:
If Human "A" falls of their bike, and Human "B" says, "Oops, are you ok?  Don't worry that happens to alot of people when they first learn to ride a bike.  Can I show an easier way to try that? It may help to keep you from falling off next time."


You advocate scenario 2.

Right?


If there weren't people around the area, including my pretty one , who marched to the above drum I would have with my tail between my legs gone back to the vanilla dating site I was on afew years back looking for(&possibly would have found by now) someone with mutual attraction who likes to bottom.

About 2 1/2 years in the community, the lifestyle, whatever - I consider myself a "newbie" of sorts. I'm not a newbie like the brand new folks I met at our monthly  munch the other night, or some folks I know who've been around forafew months& are still very much feeling their way.  Neither am I  a " charge forward full steam ahead   Sir's in my screename&I expect  all to call me Sir & where's the needles my sub's breasts await" type.  I'm me - abuddingdom. Who's ina good, healthy far from perfect relationship with someone who had vastly more knowledge& definitely more experience than me.  We spent a good amount of time getting to know each other,  playing a lot in the process, & with time I realized that she had come to a place on her journey & learned , due to some hard-won lessons, that she very clearly knew what she didnt want. What she  did want was still formulating&even subject to some change  but she had no doubts as to what dynamics she didnt want in a relationship. .

One can read her posts & see the above developments if one chooses but back to me, as someone who could have been demonized out of the community & as one who could have been left in my pretty one's dust : I was carrying a lot of  old attitudes over from my decades of topping. I came in assuming it was mostly about sex, & having long indulged in "funishment"  was assuming that" subs want & or need to be punished, right?"  Doesnt everyone like roleplaying? Dont all subs like getting their faces slapped & hair pulled? I'd bound&ravished many willing partners & whacked some of them  around with my hands& belts&ropes&other things which were laying around so that means I could put down that I'm an expert in bondage&spanking&flogging on my CM profile, right?

I went real slow at the  play parties I attended but eventually found a couple women who were willing for me to have at them with someone's borrowed toys, & I specifically asked other D types to keep an eye on me. But when my pretty one&I started spending a lot of time together I went into fullblown frenzy(which is the term she used in - respectfully -pointing it out to me). I wanted it all, & I wanted it now. We laugh about some of it now.  In the past, it wasnt uncommon for me&my partners to drink while playing & she almost had a heart attack when I told her to make me a drink the first time we played privately. A Domme friend used to give me free(too free, looking back) access to her toybag in the dungeon&my pretty one said "no, no, no" when I picked up  whips&heavy floggers  with which I had no experience & said "lets' play". Someone jokingly said that was TFTB but I even knew it was common sense(& self preservation, lolol!) once she could get eye contact with me & say "not yet. try this one, Sir?".

There's a lot of different ways to exchange power, & Ive watched many of them over the last couple years. But I've always liked that saying, I think its from old Will S - "before pride goeth a fall". I'm still pretty new at this& I dont fear humility.Never have. Sometimes someone has to get my attention, though.  I also feel grateful that I had a chance to grow, which is my main point believe it or not.  Perhaps I should have just said that....... 

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)
Profile   Post #: 100
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