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Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 9:42:37 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		The incessant chest thumping and demonizing "wannabee" doms is a very bad concept.  Especially while coddling submissives that they have no responsibility in making bad relationship choices.

It destroys our community!

Why?
Because new submissives (who are just as clueless) will now turn on any dom who makes a mistake and label him an asshole. Neither learn nor grow through the experience.
The demonizing is presented in a way that paints making mistakes as WRONG and only one side can do those wrongs, the dominant side. Imagine a world where submissives are empowered BUT INSTEAD OF SEEING THE MISTAKES OF A DOMINANT AS SIGNS OF AN ASSHOLE TOOK THEM AS OPPORTUNITIES TO GROW WITH AND OR EDUCATE THEIR PARTNER?
THEN we would have something that goes like this
"dude, what are you doing, that is a hard limit of mine, stop!"

"Uh why slave, I am dom, hear me roar!"
"Your a great guy but that isn't how you evoke my submission, respect my limits today and I might let you push them tomorrow" 
"Cool! Thanks for educating me! That was a fun scene, get together next weekend?"
"Sure, I think you are going to be a great partner, I look forward to next weekend"
And THAT is why I object to demonizing the dominants...
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 9:50:31 AM   
Whenready


Posts: 319
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline 		If it looks like an asshole, smells like an asshole, feels like an asshole, it probably is an asshole...

And yeah, sometimes I can be an asshole too... and so can you (all of us). The trick is how often - and how you deal with it.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 10:02:49 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		What inspired this thread, Michael?   I do agree that "demonizing" folks is wrong, but isn't it useful to point out what qualities a twue asshole possesses? 

What I wish would happen is that all those SUBMISSIVES would suit up and speak up!  A jerk is a jerk, whether he/she  has a leather cap earned from the God Of Preverts, or just showed up last week.   Yes, one person's jerk is another person's dream date, but sometimes he is a doop for EVERYONE.  If you don't like someone, move on graciously.  If you like  someone but they are not for you, move on graciously and say nice things about them. 

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(in reply to Whenready)
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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 10:25:33 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		 It wouldn't matter to me.  People do this all the time, in and out of the scene. Whine, whinge, bitch and moan about.

It doesn't destroy anything. It's just individuals fucking up and/or getting into situations.

The average 16yr old could grasp this. It's just communication stuff and life stuff.

agirl








(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 10:25:45 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I think you're looking at a worst case scenario. People can be experienced, making the same bad choices every time, and doing the demonizing every time for thirty years - male, female, sub, switch or dominant.

But being new doesn't necessarily mean clueless. And being experienced doesn't mean taking responsibility for oneself. It's pretty easy to know that someone doesn't take on any responsibility for themselves just by listening to them, or reading one post. Has nothing to do with experience or which side of the slash. And those of us who do take responsibility for our actions are going to identify people who do demonize others, and ignore anything they say simply because we know it doesn't work like that.

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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 10:31:41 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Awww, c'mon, Michael!  If we can't demonize doms, then we can't mollycoddle the delicate submissives who lost every ounce of common sense they had in the "vanilla" world when they found BDSM.  Can't have THAT now, can we???

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 11:23:09 AM   
SirLost


Posts: 142
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline 		Why demonizing can be good:
It is not the responsibility of a sub to train his Dom (unless she is a trainer kind of sub willingly, but this still doesn't make her/him responsible). Many subs would seek for satisfying their needs within the limits without being obligated to cope with a Dom's lack of experience or common sense. Subs aren't psychiatrists whose duty is to retreat a Dom who wants to hang his partner by her neck and have anal sex just at the first real life meet (I remember reading something similar in a chat room, the guy hadn't mentioned he would want to do such extreme things before they meet in real life).

And when demonizing can be bad:
Leaving a Dom instantly and silently at a moment of disturbance/unrelief/lack of satisfaction. This is like pulling an aching tooth, instead of trying to cure the tooth. Or quitting a roleplay in the middle intentionally without telling what they didn't like, it's not that they have to inform us but at least it would prevent us feeling high and dry. I believe what keeps relationships from processing better is the lack of communication.  


< Message edited by SirLost -- 7/15/2009 11:26:08 AM >

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 11:25:37 AM   
dreamerdreaming


Posts: 2839
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

The incessant chest thumping and demonizing "wannabee" doms is a very bad concept.  Especially while coddling submissives that they have no responsibility in making bad relationship choices.

It destroys our community!

Why?
Because new submissives (who are just as clueless) will now turn on any dom who makes a mistake and label him an asshole. Neither learn nor grow through the experience.
The demonizing is presented in a way that paints making mistakes as WRONG and only one side can do those wrongs, the dominant side. Imagine a world where submissives are empowered BUT INSTEAD OF SEEING THE MISTAKES OF A DOMINANT AS SIGNS OF AN ASSHOLE TOOK THEM AS OPPORTUNITIES TO GROW WITH AND OR EDUCATE THEIR PARTNER?
THEN we would have something that goes like this
"dude, what are you doing, that is a hard limit of mine, stop!"

"Uh why slave, I am dom, hear me roar!"
"Your a great guy but that isn't how you evoke my submission, respect my limits today and I might let you push them tomorrow" 
"Cool! Thanks for educating me! That was a fun scene, get together next weekend?"
"Sure, I think you are going to be a great partner, I look forward to next weekend"
And THAT is why I object to demonizing the dominants...


If you are trying to say that by ripping on bad doms, we are encouraging clueless newbie subs to nurse them along: nothing could be further from the truth. I've always been quick to tell the newbs (and everyone else) to dump the jerks.

_____________________________

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 11:26:08 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLost
It is not the responsibility of a sub to train his Dom

The hell it's not.  You teach people how you want to be treated, every day of your life.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to SirLost)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 11:38:41 AM   
SirLost


Posts: 142
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLost
It is not the responsibility of a sub to train his Dom

The hell it's not.  You teach people how you want to be treated, every day of your life.


The training I mentioned was for how to be a Dom, instead of how that person must treat us and what treatments we deserve.  (well, can't deny they are connected, though)
But you are right, we actually teach them a not-little thing about being a good Dom even if we say "It's not my duty to teach you how to treat subs and give you common sense" to them. It's true that our actions/reactions to other people determines how we should get treated, every day of our life, but I don't perceive this as a training.

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 11:58:33 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		All of my training as a top has come from female subs.  Most of my training as a dom has come from people in leadership positions that had nothing to do with sex or kink.  Are you calling me a fake?  (You sure wouldn't be the first.....)

I think this gets to the heart of the OP.  The sub does not have less responsibility toward a relationship... and the dom does not have more.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to SirLost)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 11:59:39 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLost
It is not the responsibility of a sub to train his Dom

The hell it's not.  You teach people how you want to be treated, every day of your life.



Red, your words are music to my ears!

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 12:04:21 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		This idea came on another forum and I brought it here.  Someone posted one of those "how to recognize douchbag doms" threads and I just lit into it.

What is interesting is that the majority of the newbie subs all loved it and couldn't see why I was attacking it. (they also couldn't see why a poly dom who loves "teaching" newbie subs might want to post a "captain safety" thread!)

The more experienced people tended to at least see my point.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 12:13:05 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		See your point?  I didn't get the pic of your... uhhh... never mind.

I gave up on the thread because one word was taken out of everything I said and then used out of context.  That word was "all".  I was not using the word to refer to everyone, or even to all new people, but to the target audience of the topic.  If the target audience is not "all of these people", then I don't know what the hell it is. <eyeroll>

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 12:32:00 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline 		My true thoughts on this, it's not an orientation issue.

There are only a small number of people in active real time stable relationships that post to the message boards, the rest.... (something to think about)

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 12:37:47 PM   
JuliaGreenleaf


Posts: 66
Joined: 4/15/2009
Status: offline 		I completely understand new Dominant needing to learn and find their inner balance..
but
If someone cannot listen to what i have to say and hear my objections/feedback, there is probably a problem. So i think i'd rather be with someone experienced, where i don't have to do this - i'd rather not too much in the end anyways.

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 2:38:41 PM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I think you're looking at a worst case scenario. People can be experienced, making the same bad choices every time, and doing the demonizing every time for thirty years - male, female, sub, switch or dominant.

But being new doesn't necessarily mean clueless. And being experienced doesn't mean taking responsibility for oneself. It's pretty easy to know that someone doesn't take on any responsibility for themselves just by listening to them, or reading one post. Has nothing to do with experience or which side of the slash. And those of us who do take responsibility for our actions are going to identify people who do demonize others, and ignore anything they say simply because we know it doesn't work like that.


What DesFip says.... thank goodness someone said it
Edited to add.... If I was looking and was contacted by a Dominant who told me he had been doing this for 30 years I would only have one question and that would be 'why has it taken you so long in finding a long term submissive'?

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 7/15/2009 2:42:13 PM >

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(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 2:57:13 PM   
WestBaySlave


Posts: 501
Joined: 9/24/2008
Status: offline 		  Doms are people - I judge them as I would anyone. Same goes with subs. However, on a site like Collarme, a sub is much more likely to get crazy, abusive or baffling messages from a dom than a fellow sub, so when it comes to bad encounters, I can safely said I've had more of them with doms than with subs simply because of my orientation there. My experience would likely be different as a switch or a dom.

When someone is new and unsure I'm fine helping them out. However, they have to want that - I'm not going to give my advice unasked for and come off as lecturing them. I'd rather explain why I don't think we're right for each other and move along rather than say "Now here's what you do if want to dom the right way..."

And sometimes, people are just assholes, are entirely aware of it, and just don't care. The few truly bad experiences I've had have been at the hands of doms who knew quite well what they were doing, and had been on the scene since before I was born.

(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 5:46:23 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Awww, c'mon, Michael!  If we can't demonize doms, then we can't mollycoddle the delicate submissives who lost every ounce of common sense they had in the "vanilla" world when they found BDSM.  Can't have THAT now, can we???

Cali


So true. Poor babies get the "frenzy" and all sense is lost

As others have said, it's the same in ANY relationship. There are those who blame their partner for everything no matter what and go off to whine about how they were mistreated and abused, never seeing any of their own faults. Meh, whaddya gonna do? Avoid 'em like the plague............luci

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(in reply to CalifChick)
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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 6:13:11 PM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

It destroys our community!



I think the only safe thing to do is to demonize everyone equally, and then we can all sleep tonight knowing our community will not be destroyed.


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Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 20
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