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RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 5:02:50 PM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

For those who have spoken so adamantly against fear in their dynamics, have you ever had a respected teacher, parent, mentor, coach, or sensei that you feared?

I have, and the same people I feared were people whom I would have trusted my very LIFE with (and did). I don't understand what fear has to do with trust, but perhaps that's only been because I've had numerous situations in my life where both went hand-in-hand, so to me, they could never be completely dichotomous.
sure there have been authority figures i have both respected and feared. The fear was due to (probably) the possibility of negative repercussions to my behavior. I feared getting fired when i first started working for a doctor whom i thought was a total ass (and is now one of my closest friends). I feared the teachers in high school that thought (for some silly reason)  i was a wise-ass and loved to write my name on detention slips. I fear health issues, accidents, war, etc. The fear was there because i did not trust the doctor to keep me in his employment (he did though). I did not trust the teachers to over look my wise cracks and see it is just a part of my personality. I do not trust the cells in my body not to mutate into some form of cancer. I do not trust that i will get into my car and not get sideswiped be a drunk driver. The fear is born from a lack of trust.



I trust my husband. Totally. I can and do submit to him because i have no fear i will be harmed. I can hand him a speeding ticket with no fear of his wrath. Whereas there are things associated with a ticket that i do not want (the lecture, the fine, the second lecture) i hardly fear them.

And many mention fear of disappointment. He and i are married. We live together. We share the same tube of toothpaste. I WILL inevitably disappoint him. It is going to happen, as he will disappoint me. Should i live in fear of it? No, I cannot imagine the existence of walking on egg shells that would involve. My nerves would be shot within a day or two.


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RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 5:03:41 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		No place here for fear. Not even for fear of displeasing him. I don't want to displease him, but that's because I love him and want him to be happy.

I see much more use in positive reinforcement than in negative.

However, one thing I've come to notice now that I have a 16 y. o. boy is that in them, fear is much more important a motivator than it is in girls. If this carries through to male adulthood, which I don't know, then it would explain why so many doms think their femsubs should fear them. Simply because they are extrapolating from their own experience.

They perform better when motivated by fear so they assume their subs will also. Here, if I'm afraid then I close off. I may do want he wants but there will be no joy in it, and I will not go the extra mile. I will do only what I have to in order to avoid punishment. I certainly wouldn't do anything extra for fear he wouldn't like it. Fear and anticipatory service as I see it are mutually exclusive. And fear and emotional transparency have nothing in common.

Basically, if I'm afraid of you, I will not give you any possible way of hurting me. I will avoid being vulnerable to you. I will avoid being with you for fear of you being angry.

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RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 5:09:43 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		FR



  1. Submissive-types: Do you fear your dominant, at least to a degree? N/A
  2. If so, why?  N/A
  3. Dominant-sorts: Do you think your submissive has any fear of you? Quite possibly ~ Fear of me finding them lacking and thus fear of being released ~ This should disappear after they get to know me.
  4. Should they?  If it spurs them along their path and as long they don't get paranoid or fearful it can play a part in the early stages.
  5. Mental, physical, fear in any form, should fear play a part in D/s? From my point of view, no.



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RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 5:12:15 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Submissive-types: Do you fear your dominant, at least to a degree? If so, why?
 
... What about the fear of displeasing the dominant?


Hmmm... for me, the word fear can be pretty strong... as in being associated with the fight or flight response. 

No, I don't fear Firm at all and he doesn't want me to. 

There are, however, appropriate times for emotions that are often associated with fear... anxiety, anticipation, apprehension, reverence, and respect.  But none rise to the level that would bring about that fight or flight response.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 6:25:36 PM   
Kalista07


Posts: 4240
Joined: 7/1/2007
Status: offline 		This thread has interesting timing for me...  He and i were watching some training of O video.. i reacted so strongly to one that we had to shut it off in the middle and i began crying.... Part of the reason i had such a strong reaction to it was because it seemed to me that it was primarily based on fear... The dynamic was so foreign to what i had experienced since i had entered this relationship with Him...and yet so familiar to what i experienced when i lived my life prior to Him..
Fear has no place in the relationship i choose to be in...i'm not saying it's not right or appropriate for anyone else's relationship, i can only speak for the relationship i'm in..The reason i can not be in a relationship that has any component of fear is because i've been ruled by fear the majority of my life..Well...fear and guilt..The truth is, well unto the time i moved in here i was still ruled by fear.. The thing is i had to continue to remind myself that the fear was not real... It was based on my insecurities and my issues of the past....It had nothing to do with Him...It had nothing to do with our relationship....
Kali




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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 6:35:07 PM   
daintydimples


Posts: 967
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline 		Great topic.

Someone used the term healthy respect...that is at it's most visceral level...fear.

I could not submit to someone I did not have a healthy respect for.

Conversely, if someone did not have a healthy respect for me, I
would not want them to submit to me.

Funny since I am five feet tall and the average male makes two of me.

It's not physical, it's mental.





(in reply to Kalista07)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 7:14:02 PM   
KateyCaine


Posts: 274
Joined: 5/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

Mental, physical, fear in any form, should fear play a part in D/s?
Perhaps it is for some, but for me fear means there is a lack of trust.

I would never submit to someone i did not trust.



Well said, sirsholly :)

Off-topic now: Didn't you say something to me in an earlier thread (i think it was my LDR thread) about cats? Are you a major cat person too? 

k.

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RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 7:25:58 PM   
Drakontos


Posts: 167
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Submissive-types: Do you fear your dominant, at least to a degree? If so, why?
 
Dominant-sorts: Do you think your submissive has any fear of you? Should they?
 
Mental, physical, fear in any form, should fear play a part in D/s?

Yes, zahira fears Master's anger, displeasure, discontent, indifference, etc.
Master is the kind of man that many people just fear on sight; it is not because he does or says anything, it is just the aura that he gives off. To not fear him, would feel wrong; in zaphira's mind.

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zaphira

Live with honor; serve with grace and beauty

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RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 7:38:28 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		People in this world at this time are so allergic to the word fear, to fear itself.

There was a movement in the 80's that said you could only either feel love or fear, you had to choose. I found this so insane, incredibly unloving actually.

Fear is an emotion, not something you shop for or dont. If people are really honest fear is as common as dirt in our world these days. In my opinion, so it should be, considering where we are at, what is going on in our world.

Fear, anger, rage, hatred, grief, joy, even terror are some of our human emotions.

One day, I am thinking, we will live in a world where it would not be a crime of human presentation to admit to feeling fear.

< Message edited by heartcream -- 7/18/2009 7:40:45 PM >

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RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 7:53:27 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtysubK

yes,  there is fear to a certain extent.  I always know there will be pain,  but there is a certain degree of fear when I don't know exactly what he is going to do or how difficult it will be for me. 

I don't equate fear with distrust.  The fear is in knowing that he will most likely hurt me physically when we are together.  Sometimes a lot,  sometimes not so much.  But I trust him enough to know he does not wat to really harm me


There's a wide variety of responses here. I'm glad I found someone voicing mine, so I don't have to write it out. :) Given the men I'm attacted to, this would probably be my response as well. I also don't equate fear with distrust. I'm really glad I don't because I don't think I could fetishize fear as much as I do if I associated it with mistrust.

I don't, however, fear a dominant's displeasure. I don't like it, it defintely makes me unhappy and I try very hard not to engender it in the first place, but when (not if) it happens, it's not the end of the world. Humans make mistakes and always will. And oh yes the consequences of them can be hard to bear (harder for the dom who makes a mistake than for the sub I think), but I guess when you've reached a point where you've made a critical number of mistakes (smiles, yes I've got the teeshirt), you stop feeling that chilling cold terror over them. You know, life rolls on no matter what. And should you make the sort of mistake that stops your own life from rolling, well, you won't exactly know you made it, I don't believe.

(in reply to naughtysubK)
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RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 8:29:20 PM   
Hawkwindblues


Posts: 183
Joined: 6/26/2009
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

This is Darcy

The only fear we have and should have in our relationship, is the fear of not being with each other.


Your words are so beautiful and that is the way we also feel.

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RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 9:02:42 PM   
janiebelle


Posts: 332
Joined: 4/29/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

People in this world at this time are so allergic to the word fear, to fear itself.

There was a movement in the 80's that said you could only either feel love or fear, you had to choose. I found this so insane, incredibly unloving actually.

Fear is an emotion, not something you shop for or dont. If people are really honest fear is as common as dirt in our world these days. In my opinion, so it should be, considering where we are at, what is going on in our world.

Fear, anger, rage, hatred, grief, joy, even terror are some of our human emotions.

One day, I am thinking, we will live in a world where it would not be a crime of human presentation to admit to feeling fear.


Interesting.  I am intimately familiar with fear.  It is purely instinctual, and I have learned to heed that instinct.  Fear is gift from nature.  Fear is that momentary flood of instinct that tells you that
A)  something potentially dangerous is afoot
B)  but it is not happening yet
C)  and you have a split second to react and make the right decision to keep yourself safe.
Fear is anticipatory.  You cannot be afraid of something that is happening to you.  Once you embrace that, fear is no longer half as troubling. 
For example:  You are in a parking garage, waiting for an elevator.  You are not in fear, but you are aware.  A car arrives.  A lone man is inside.  He does not get out, even though you are on the lowest level of the garage.  Consciously or not, you will likely be afraid.  Why?  Because nature/god/fate gave you the intellect to process, even faster than in a split second, several facts:
that man should be getting out of the elevator
that man is stronger than you
you do not know his intentions
getting in that elevator is putting yourself at the total mercy of a strange man
bad things happen in cases like this from time to time
In about 1/1000 of the time it took to type that, a woman makes a decision:
A)  embrace that fear, and make a sound decision to wait for the next car  OR
B)  ignore her instinct, and let her social conditioning about "not being rude" overpower her better judgement, and get in the elevator.
In that kind of  situation, a woman who appreciates what her fear instinct is, and what it means to her, is at a great advantage. 
Now, taking this into a D/s situation (and not talking about "play" here):
I would not want any part of a man who ever gave me the same reaction as the man in the elevator.
I want a man who I feel is the one with whom I could step into the elevator, and know with 100% certainty I was coming out alive.
And that is my take on fear.  Real deal, instinctual, your-life-may-depend-on-it fear.
The rest of what people call fear is maybe anxiety, panic, worry, anticipation, etc.  But fear is a good thing in my book.  And I carry NO shame in acknowledging that I'm afraid.  Frequently.  And like other girls who embrace fear, I'm here to tell you about it because more than once, I heeded my fears.
j

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RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 10:13:49 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Dominant-sorts: Do you think your submissive has any fear of you? Should they?


This question comes up from time to time in the forums and it always plays out exactly the same way each time.


Very true.

As for my own thoughts, I have a different view on fear, as I do on all the other so-called "negative" emotions.  To begin with I don't view them as negative at all, nor do I view certian others as being inherently positive.  Instead, of themselves, they simply are.  Whether any of them has a constructive or destructive impact on our lives depends on our own ability to handle each of these emotions... all of which are natural.

Addressing fear specifically, I recognize that fear is part of all our lives and it cannot be removed.  We all will always have things we fear, its natural.  At times that is a healthy thing.  Fear can goad us into action, or cause us to avoid something which would harm us.  Fear can be beneficial.  Fear can also paralyze us, cause us to act in ways we shouldn't or fail to act when we should.  This true for any emotion we are capable of.  Fear can also be exciting and thrilling... roller coaster rides are designed to frighten us, as are horror movies... and yet we pay to experience these things.

So no, I don't take the simplistic view of  "fear has no place".  Fear, like anything, has its place.  Denying that can be terribly unhealthy... and an expression of fear in itself.

To answer the questions.

Should a submissive have any fear of me as a dominant?  To a degree, yes.  But lets be more specific... are we talking mortal fear for their lives? No.  Fear of physical abuse? No.  Fear of the consequences of disobeying me?  Yes.  Fear of displeasing me? Yes  Fear those consequences will be extreme? No  Fear those consequences will be unpleasant?  Yes  My chief problem with the question is that it is too simplistic.

Should fear in any form be part of D/s?  Reality is that fear is a part of life... period.  I suspect however you are asking more precisely should fear deliberatly be a part of a D/s dynamic?  Perhaps.  Fear can be a tool, like anything else.  In the wrong hands, in well meaning but inept hands, it could be a disaster.  In competent hands it could be constructive.  Like most tools, the answer is two fold.  First, is it the right tool for the job?  Second, do you know how to effectively use the tool?  And certain, some want fear to be part of their dynamic, perhaps for the thrill, or for other reasons.  People are quite varied in their desires, another fact that complicates both the question and any possible answer.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 10:29:27 PM   
oceanwinds


Posts: 530
Status: offline 		I do not fear Sir. We have built a strong trust bond between us. I do not fear he will hurt what saftety I need in my life from him. He will never put me in a situations that could cause harm to me. What I do fear is not related to sir, but the fear of going through a 'task' that has in the past scared me. However, when one is treated with respect and caring, and past sessions, just everyday Ds/ normal events occur I know he isn't just thinking about his own needs, he keeps in mind what I can handle. He has stretch my boundaries, not just in sm but as a person and this has caused me anxiety, but results have always been positive. I can count on all my fingers and toes how often I have emailed him to thank him for pushing me this direction or pulling away at times, so I can discover my own strength. No I do not fear Sir, but he has put me through the process of fear so I had to walk through it.

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RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 10:34:33 PM   
peppermint


Posts: 5169
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline
quote:

And for some, I think "fear" is the proper word to use, if nothing else, fear of disappointing the dominant.


Sorry.  I do not fear disappointing my dominant although I do sometimes disappoint him.  I do not live with the cloud of any kind or sort of fear over my head. 

I was just thinking that I should not have gotten involved with this thread at all.  I don't have time to think about fear.  It's so much more pleasant to think of the fun we have, to make plans for the future, to laugh, to spend time with friends.  Life is way too busy and full and fun to bother with anything negative like fear. 

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RE: Fear - 7/18/2009 10:37:21 PM   
caelestis


Posts: 195
Joined: 9/6/2008
Status: offline 		No, I have no fear of Him, nor do I feel fear plays any part in the dynamic.  I trust in His ability to make descisions that will be the best for everyone involved.

I wouldn't trust someone I feared.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Fear - 7/19/2009 12:06:22 AM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		Respect and Responsibility are more powerful than fear.

Sadly, the American system of justice is fear/deterrent based. It does not encourage and support positive behavior. Instead, it simply penalizes wrong behavior.

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RE: Fear - 7/19/2009 12:28:21 AM   
TurboJugend


Posts: 481
Joined: 6/15/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Dominant-sorts: Do you think your submissive has any fear of you? Should they?


If she fears me...I did something terrible wrong ...and if she is smart she moves on.
What I mostly hear from them is that they are "worried" about not satisfying me.

Excitement and worries together can look like fear. But I always check..if it is just that...and really not fear.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Fear - 7/19/2009 5:43:39 AM   
xiam


Posts: 148
Joined: 7/1/2007
Status: offline 		Do i fear him as a person?  No.  Do i fear him in the moment?  Yeah, sometimes i do!  But it also turns me on immensely.

Anticipating the next move, the next request, the next slap, the next limit that will be pushed or disappear altogether.  Fear of the unknown, fear of change, fear of what i am becoming despite craving it all the same.

I don't see fear as being the antithesis of trust.  The fact that i trust him enough to fear him says a lot.

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RE: Fear - 7/19/2009 6:34:22 AM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline 		To answer the first question; no, I do not fear him, nor do I want to.
 
As for the second; there is a type of fear present, but I’m not exactly sure what it is based on.
 
Perhaps it is about forgetting myself… failing as a ‘submisive’.
 
I don’t know…
 
Kim

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one voice

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