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RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 9:12:18 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ICEMAN55
It's true that is what a "hard limit" is

Okay, I'm getting tired of this.  Here's an article from the Leather Archives that defines hard limits.

http://pittsburghleather.org/Articles/Negotiations/Establishing%20Limits.pdf

There is no sense in which GaPhoto's definition is the "Leather" definition.  The definition given by tazzygirl, Racquelle, leadership, and pretty much everyone else is much closer to the definition in the article.

It is true that GaPhoto's position has been widely popularized by Mistress Steel, an online pseudo-leather pseudo-educator, with a widely trafficked web site called "The Steel Door."  Several of her articles about BDSM history are straight-up false.  Maybe the worst of all of them is her history of collars, which is flatly contradicted by oral histories in the Leather Archives.

So, GaPhoto, your position is not a standard Leather one, and you'd do well to pay attention to what the rest of us are saying.  As for Iceman, where on earth did you get your definition?


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to ICEMAN55)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 9:17:04 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		LMAO.  Good grief.  So an real life honest to goodness leather person told you this huh?  It must be nice to have all the definitive answers close by.  
You become truly insulting when you imply that anyone who is not "leather" is online.
I suggest you find another teacher.  There is no one true way.
Pluueease.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: GaPhoto

Limits are fluid yes, and I do fully realize that.  However this is the definition that I was taught, by someone who has verifiably been involved with the leather (and yes I mean actual leather)  Everything else is soft.  Should soft limits be respected with absolute lines?  Yes.  Should they be listed as hard limits?
I also realize that I tend to have more absolute views on things due to my teaching, and that online many people only have anecdotal, 'Story of 'O' knowledge and view points.

Zack



< Message edited by Missokyst -- 7/27/2009 9:24:00 PM >

(in reply to GaPhoto)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 9:30:01 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

The definition given by tazzygirl, Racquelle, leadership, and pretty much everyone else is much closer to the definition in the article.

Hey hey hey.... don't include me in that list *laughs*. I personally believe hard limits are nothing more than a codified step in the D/s dance with no more substance or purpose to them than the contracts they exist in. Surely that cannot be well aligned with any traditional leather (or bdsm) view.

Step A: Write contract
Step B: Note limits
Step C: Get snazzy mastercard with 14k gold secret decoder ring

All of which means, of course, that I even more violently disagree with the OP than the general BDSM community does. I'm somewhat concerned by that though given his excellent credentials and obvious experience in the field.


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 9:55:03 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GaPhoto

I also realize that I tend to have more absolute views on things due to my teaching, and that online many people only have anecdotal, 'Story of 'O' knowledge and view points.


You have absolute views on things because of your teaching? No offense, but just exactly who taught you to be narrow-minded and disrespectful of opinions that differ from your own? And why would someone have taught you that? I've always felt those qualities had more to do with innate personality traits, not learned behavior.

But at any rate... lighten up a bit, man. You're 23. Nothing wrong with that - every one of us was 23 once too, and for some of us, it was recent enough that we actually even remember it. Barely, but... we do remember it. When i was your age, I was living in a 24/7 ownership-based relationship that was very real, and very serious. And your parents probably hadn't even met yet, unless they went to grade school together. So please don't come in here and insult me by ridiculing the life I've led and the experiences that have been informing my opinions since before your parents had driver's licenses, just because some equally narrowminded twit with "verifiable involvement with the actual leather community" (whatever the heck that means) awed you so much that you accept everything she says as though it was carved on stone tablets by the fiery finger of yahweh. It isn't so much that you offend us; I think most of us actually find it more amusing than irritating. The thing is, nobody will take anything you say seriously if that's your starting point.

I think you need a better teacher. I suggest looking for one who not only understands the difference between personal opinion and absolute fact, but also has the wisdom, the maturity, and the self-confidence to encourage you to seek out conflicting points of view and make up your own mind which opinions feel the most valid and the most authentic to you. I think your current mentors are teaching you some very unproductive lessons, encouraging you to make your world smaller rather than bigger. That's no way to learn. People who apply that approach tend to wind up living in very small worlds because they spend their entire lives learning very small lessons. You seem like a really decent guy, and i think you can do better. Good luck, bro.


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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to GaPhoto)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 10:12:29 PM   
GaPhoto


Posts: 22
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline 		I got a bug up my ass, as I have said, I really don't think like that.  I have several mentors who would probably kick my ass for posting something like that.  The person to whom I was referring does tend to have a somewhat elitist point of view on some things.  Occasionally I will wrongly assume such a state. 

Zack

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 10:26:42 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GaPhoto

I got a bug up my ass, as I have said, I really don't think like that.  I have several mentors who would probably kick my ass for posting something like that.  The person to whom I was referring does tend to have a somewhat elitist point of view on some things.  Occasionally I will wrongly assume such a state. 

Zack



And I'm sorry if I misjudged you on the strength of that one post. Like I said, you seem like you're fundamentally a really decent guy. Some of us stuck you pretty hard after that opening post, but you hung around and kept your cool where a lot of people would have flipped out. Personally,  I hope you stick around and post more often

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to GaPhoto)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 10:28:15 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		While I can accept people having different views about hard limits... I admit I get very amused everytime I come across a profile that lists Bird Watching as a hard limit... and you'd be amazed how often that comes up. 

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to GaPhoto)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 10:38:22 PM   
GaPhoto


Posts: 22
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline 		I see country music alot actually.  Although bird watching with me would probably emotionally damage someone who liked it. 

"Tastes like chicken, just not enough meat on the things."

Zack

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 10:41:43 PM   
Racquelle


Posts: 600
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline 		I actually find some of the stated hard limits on here a bit funny.  (Mine are intentionally so).  I love when people feel they need to explicitly state that "children" are a hard limit.  Pretty much ALL of us have that as a hard limit - I hope.

OP - good save.  You're ok in my book.  I get to say who's ok.  It's MY book.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 10:47:31 PM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		The term "hard limit" is a redundant term invented by the narcissistic master who magically believes that the word "limit" does not mean limit, and has arrogantly redefined it as preference. After watching CNN News Network on an LCD display over a LAN network connected to their PC computer, the narcissist probably forgot their PIN number at the ATM maching on their way to take a SAT test. The term "soft limit" is an oxymoron, again invented by the narcissistic master who magically believes that he/she is not bound by any limit, and thus limits are "soft."

Presumably, one can simply look up the word "limit" in the dictionary to comprehend its meaning. A limit is a limit. Period. If somebody says they have a limit, that is it -- accept it and respect it. For example, I have a limit against interacting with people who are not sufficiently honest to disclose their limits, or who lack the integrity to honor another's limits. Just as surrender is a choice, so too are most limits.



< Message edited by aldompdx -- 7/27/2009 10:58:15 PM >

(in reply to GaPhoto)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 10:52:27 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

While I can accept people having different views about hard limits... I admit I get very amused everytime I come across a profile that lists Bird Watching as a hard limit... and you'd be amazed how often that comes up. 


That is pretty funny. I guess I never noticed; I don't look at many profiles. But I suppose that for those who find it boring, they find it really fucking boring. There's one profile I like a lot, a really terrific profile,  that only lists one hard limit - veganism. Everything else, she can either take it or leave it. But veganism? "Get that shit out of my life - gimme a burger, goddamnit!"


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 10:56:52 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		welcome to teh boards, OP :)

Some of the things that I listed as a hard limit way back when I first got involved with this stuff are now among, if not my FAVORITE things, at least enjoyable.

Canes, floggers, etc fall into that category.   Bondage used to be OK.  Now it's a hard limit.

HArd limits can be fluid, depending on the person.


_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 11:33:56 PM   
Zeknpet


Posts: 38
Joined: 1/31/2005
Status: offline 		See, now... Language is funny like that. For some of us, the term hard limit is indicitave of things we will not willingly attempt, hold in contempt, find to be in immense turn off, a trigger or what have you while mere mortal limits are fair game for expanding. Pain for instance... I can help you explore and overcome limits there, not hard at all. Educational limits in the form of encouragement, being the daddy and the motivating force to go get a college degree. A limit she didn't think she could overcome. Public speaking as another example may be a limit for a shy submissive, but isn't quite of the "I'd sooner die" variety adn with proper confidence and people skill building and finding topics the submissive is passionate about my find them asking to make a presentation to a group.

Oh and umm

"The term "hard limit" is a redundant term invented by the narcissistic master who magically believes that the word "limit" does not mean limit, and has redefined it as preference.

Seeing how you're all high and mighty, I feel I should point out a few things..

Firstly, let's have a look at: ""The term "hard limit" is a redundant term...""

I'm still laughing.

Next we have: " invented by the narcissistic master..."

THE narcissistic master? Is there only one, or are we expected to know which one? The non specific would be "invented by a narcissistic master" which would be consistent with the sub proposition of your clause i.e. that the term has a specific source point. Not for nothing, but judging by your linguistic skills, I honestly doubt you're that deep into etymology you've elucidated ground zero of a linguistic distinction.

Next up on the stand, will you please extend a hand to: "magically believes that the word "limit"..."

Wow you sure do like rhetorical devices. Do you really believe in magic* or are you merely tossing it in to lend that aura of ridicule before ascribing an attributed belief system to a simple turn of common phrase. Oh and... why the quotes? Hmm a misplaced rhetorical device at that.

and the closer: "...the word "limit" does not mean limit, and has redefined it as preference.

Call the rampant comma police! pause breaks and conjunctions don't mix. Commas replace pause breaks in repetitious form as in lists. As in: Would you like door number one, door number two or door number three? This bit again visits the rhetorical themas by  ascribing direct intent to said master with " redefined it as preference." as if it were a conscious decision by the (not A as I'm referring to my previous declaration) master.


If you're going to be a language nazi, expect the language allied invasion my friend.


Oh. one more thing...

Language is fluid. Dictionaries are outdated before the ink dries. People determine what goes in the dictionary, not the other way round. Fight it if you wish, methinks ye be tilting at windmills though.






*in a young girl's heart
How the music can free her, whenever it starts
And it's magic, if the music is groovy
It makes you feel happy like an old-time movie
I'll tell you about the magic, and it'll free your soul
But it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock and roll



/tosses you a luvin spoonful....


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Local to Arizona? Come join us :)

(in reply to aldompdx)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Limits - 7/27/2009 11:57:46 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop


HArd limits can be fluid, depending on the person.



And depending on the fluid.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Limits - 7/28/2009 12:14:44 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		*SNORT*

_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Limits - 7/28/2009 12:40:58 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		It doesn't matter one bit what anyone else's definitions of limits are to me.
The only person it does matter with is the one I'm in the room with.
He knows things I've told him that make me uncomfortable. He also knows that I trust him to keep me safe, mentally and physically.
He pretty much has carte blanche because of that trust.

_____________________________



(in reply to GaPhoto)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Limits - 7/28/2009 1:13:27 AM   
VanityFix


Posts: 141
Joined: 7/20/2009
Status: offline 		"But I do think that some sort of definiton should be avaliable for newbies, even in the forums.  That's how the term BDSM came around, as a general descriptor.  As a personals site collarme should have different options availiable, and a blurb giving some general idea what each one means.  Not concrete definitons, just some idea. Does anyone agree with me?"

i see where your coming from, but i think it would be a better idea for newbies to search around and read forums for definitions, everyone has some different view of what sub/dom hard limit or w/e is. instead of one single view people are given a good dozen or so on every topic,
sure it can be overwhelming at first hearing "a hard limit is.. blah blah blah" but after reading alot of posts you can determine who has their shit together and what terms losely mean by general consensus. this way people can take or make their own personal definitions on what things mean.
besides no matter how enlightened collarme put as a definition of say "dominant" it would piss off far more people than would agree with it.

so in short awnser.. it might be nice but its far to late. XD

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Limits - 7/28/2009 1:21:21 AM   
AlexandraLynch


Posts: 778
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline 		I think everyone's got limits, and whether they are hard or soft seriously depend on the person.

I have hiking listed as a hard limit for me. I used to love hiking, though I was never up to ten miles a day. And then I blew my foot apart in a car wreck. So I am not going to be hiking with anyone any more. If that's a "I go do that every weekend, can't imagine life without it" for someone, then they're not going to find sitting round with me too much fun. Likewise, someone who cannot fathom why anyone would want to do a research paper for fun and dress up in medieval clothing is not going to be able to handle a lifestyle that involves going to at least one SCA event a month. But this applies to just friends, not just submissives, and I'm glad the site allows me the option of indicating this, so I can make sure I don't get a monogamous Christian Republican submissive who can't live without going running with his beloved daily.

Hard limits of course also exist in more intimate ways. I bloodied my nose on one of mine recently. I knew that I do not believe in sex without consent. I do not believe that when a straight woman submits to a couple that she is required to do sexual acts she would not seek out on her own. I was very nearly physically sick when I realized she had not "wanted" to have sex with me, and it took quite a lot of work to not have the relationship blow up over this.

Sure, limits can shift and change, but I tend to feel that the redefinition of said limit starts with the person who has it.


_____________________________

I use fastreply. Don't take offence where none is meant.

Just because I'm not a bitch doesn't mean I'm not perfectly capable of making sure you'll be very sorry if you disobey.

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Limits - 7/28/2009 1:38:09 AM   
Zeknpet


Posts: 38
Joined: 1/31/2005
Status: offline 		Hey cool deal, removing old web addresses from siglines on forum profile removes them retroactively. We haven't been on here in awhile, web addies changed while we were afk... Sorry for the miss on the previous post  for those who clicked the dead links. ;-)

_____________________________

Local to Arizona? Come join us :)

(in reply to AlexandraLynch)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Limits - 7/28/2009 1:50:18 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

The definition given by tazzygirl, Racquelle, leadership, and pretty much everyone else is much closer to the definition in the article.

Hey hey hey.... don't include me in that list *laughs*. I personally believe hard limits are nothing more than a codified step in the D/s dance with no more substance or purpose to them than the contracts they exist in. Surely that cannot be well aligned with any traditional leather (or bdsm) view.

Step A: Write contract
Step B: Note limits
Step C: Get snazzy mastercard with 14k gold secret decoder ring

All of which means, of course, that I even more violently disagree with the OP than the general BDSM community does. I'm somewhat concerned by that though given his excellent credentials and obvious experience in the field.



what contract? lol... do pay attention, please.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 40
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